Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide/MMS and the eradication of disease - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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none of what you posted is evidence of a cure of anything

Yet you hadn't read it.  I point that out, then you post:

 

 

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as far as your other links I am wading through them now ...

So excuse me if I think you're just messing with me.  You went straight in to discredit the science and you hadn't even read it.  

 

You wrote this, without having read it:

 

 

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your definition of "actual" science is very uniqueROTFLMAO.gif, I'll give you that one and you are right I came here as skeptic unlikely to be convinced but you have truly cemented in my mind that MMS is a big fat lie lie lie

 

What you say is worth absolutely nothing to this.  You blatantly misled, how can we trust an opinion based on that?  You show no genuine inquiry, not even interest in learning.  

 

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in fact most of them are just as stupid as this whole argument. 

Most of them are peer reviewed studies or research done in respectable institutes - but of course, you'd know that if you'd read them.  "Just as stupid"? 

 

Incredible.  You want science, I give you science, you don't read the science before ridiculing the science, me, and insulting the scientists themselves.  

 

I really really hope that everyone's critique isn't going to be this asinine.  I don't see the point in enduring post after post of mudslinging and character assassination.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#62 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:17 AM
 
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How it works against malaria specifically, via oral administration - very interesting and important work, with extensive references. 

 

If by extensive you mean he simply rehashes Jim Humble's work- well ok I agree with that. Many of the other references included are things no one disagrees with-that bleach disinfects. The doctor who wrote this is a big fan of Humble (and is running the Malaria Initiative), that much is clear. So much of his proof is simply what Jim Humble tells him. This kind of circle jerk is NOT scientific evidence of anything.

 

 

You read the findings at the end right? They found it was very effective at disinfecting surfaces. Even the pumping of trace amounts worked because the solution was covering the known vectors of flu transmission. At the very end the authors recommend three ways of combating the flu-

 

1. Disinfection of surfaces, wearing masks, washing hands

2. The use of HEPA filters, and small amounts of the gas as a virucide (which again no one is disputing that bleach kills things)

3. And to protect humans-routine vaccination against influenza, use of anti-influenza medications, and high doses of Vitamin D

 

 

From the No Need to Evacuate Link:

 

 

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Taiko's chlorine dioxide product has three forms, one is a precisely controlled chlorine dioxide gas generating machine. The machine is installed adjacent to an air-conditioner of a building and the gas generated is introduced in the duct of the air-conditioner to disinfect air of a large room. Another form is a desktop-type small gas generating gel. The "gel" is used on top of a desk or table or stuck to a wall of a room to disinfect air in a relatively small room.  The third is chlorine dioxide solution used as a spray to disinfect an object's surface.

 

Again and again and again the links you have posted (besides the ridiculous stuff from Humble and his cronies) simply states that it is an effective SURFACE

disinfectant.

 

 

I'll be back after I've read some more-so far though it is the same old same old-a bunch of bogus claims and links to studies that agree bleach disinfects stuff.

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#63 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:19 AM
 
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Calm,

Thank you for taking the time to post the links.  I haven't gone through them yet, but am looking forward to doing so.  I'm quite clear that there are plenty of things out there that work brilliantly where the FDA either stands in direct opposition or (even better) arbitrarily decides they are harmful with no actual evidence supporting those claims. 

 

I don't yet know where this falls, and I'm still concerned, but I'm eager to become more informed.

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#64 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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As this was brought up... Jim is not selling MMS.  He shows how to make it yourself out of salt and electric current.  He sells his books, yes.  Rich?  If you'd traveled with him, you'd rethink the use of the word "rich".  He is a bishop of a church where they give free healing with it.  If people feel the treatment was worth it, they donate.  No healing, no pay.  Makes sense to me.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#65 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:23 AM
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#66 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:25 AM
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#67 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oaktree, I said in the FAQ that it was external and internal... they are mixed in that list.  Many people don't even know it works at all against pathogens.  When speaking about this at a basic level, and there is much evidence here that I am, I must first show that it actually works against pathogens.  The question is, does it also do that inside the body?  If yes, then: is it safe?  

 

There is evidence it enters body organs intact.  I closed my links page but if someone wants that study let me know.

 

In another note, thank you for showing something more.. well, you know... more.  I appreciate the intelligent discourse.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#68 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sorry Lauren, but you crossed the line long ago.  I'm done with you.  Good luck.  namaste.gif


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#69 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:36 AM
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#70 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm surprised your posts haven't been removed, honestly.  They're pretty defamatory, you did cross the line.  Unnecessary.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#71 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 06:46 AM
 
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There is extensive research on use as a mouth rinse.  This is just one of them 

 

Again you are not ingesting it. You are using it like Listerine which also cautions you against swallowing it. Same with gargling salt water. If you swallow it chances are very good you will vomit. Does this mean a salt water gargle is cleansing my body of toxins and pathogens? Because that is what the makers of MMS claim when you vomit.

 

 

 

This study I am not sure about at all-it appears that they were attempting to study the effects of drinking water treated with CIO2 vs either untreated water or water treated with another derivative. I cannot gain access to the whole study though.

 

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#72 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 07:15 AM
 
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I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

 

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

 

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.


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#73 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mbravebird View Post

I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

 

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

 

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.


I have to agree with you here. The mudslinging is unbearable. To Calm for what it's worth, I appreciate your taking the time to speak about your experiences with MMS and what you know. I am interested in learning more and open to your point of view and looking into opposing points of view as well. I also do not believe that you have bad intentions or are hawking anything. I believe you have knowledge and experience with MMS that most people don't have and this makes you passionate about it. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As for "snake oils" and scams. Yes there are many things out there that are, but our history is littered with examples of people who have brought forth information about certain things that seemed ludicris or crazy. The ideas were met with scorn and the messanger labeled a quack or worse. Many times history has vindicated this person. I'm reminded of this quote " Truth will only make you unpopular.- WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider.

I personally have healed ailments for myself and my family using certain "snake oils". That is not to say that I believe everything I am told. I generally try to approach new things with an open mind and learn as much as I can before taking action with something. It's hard talking about something you believe in when your getting crapped on for it - particularly in a public forum. I know I've been there.

With all that being said. I am not taking sides here. I just want to learn more. People who think MMS is a scam are free to think so - they can post their opinion that they disagree with you and call it a day.

You know it gets ugly in the vax forum quite alot too. I suppose when you have a group of people who have opposite points of view and you throw passion and emotions into the mix, things are bound to get ugly from time to time. Frankly it's sad. I believe wholeheartedly in the law of attraction. What you are put out into the universe is what you get back. So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie nut.gif
 

 

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#74 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post



 


I have to agree with you here. The mudslinging is unbearable. To Calm for what it's worth, I appreciate your taking the time to speak about your experiences with MMS and what you know. I am interested in learning more and open to your point of view and looking into opposing points of view as well. I also do not believe that you have bad intentions or are hawking anything. I believe you have knowledge and experience with MMS that most people don't have and this makes you passionate about it. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As for "snake oils" and scams. Yes there are many things out there that are, but our history is littered with examples of people who have brought forth information about certain things that seemed ludicris or crazy. The ideas were met with scorn and the messanger labeled a quack or worse. Many times history has vindicated this person. I'm reminded of this quote " Truth will only make you unpopular.- WOLFGANG BORCHERT, The Outsider.

I personally have healed ailments for myself and my family using certain "snake oils". That is not to say that I believe everything I am told. I generally try to approach new things with an open mind and learn as much as I can before taking action with something. It's hard talking about something you believe in when your getting crapped on for it - particularly in a public forum. I know I've been there.

With all that being said. I am not taking sides here. I just want to learn more. People who think MMS is a scam are free to think so - they can post their opinion that they disagree with you and call it a day.

You know it gets ugly in the vax forum quite alot too. I suppose when you have a group of people who have opposite points of view and you throw passion and emotions into the mix, things are bound to get ugly from time to time. Frankly it's sad. I believe wholeheartedly in the law of attraction. What you are put out into the universe is what you get back. So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie nut.gif
 

 



I agree.

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#75 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 08:13 AM
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I can only say that I get heated at times and I can't be the only person who does...Different issues bring out the ire in different people. 

Anyway sorry for making it hard for people to find the information they are looking for.

I am sorry for MY part in the mudslinging...That won't change my views on MMS but I said my piece and as PP said, I'll call it a day with this conversation.

 

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#76 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 08:14 AM
 
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I started this thread in the hopes that the everything that needed to be said about the topic would get to be said.  I know that it's a passionate topic, but the namecalling and insults are not in line with the intent of the thread and threaten the thread itself.  Please refrain from insulting each other.


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So if one is spewing negativity and venom, that person will somehow, someway get that back in their life. Who knows, maybe that belief makes me a kooky hippie 

 

How about people who market a fake cure to desperately ill and dying people? What do they get back I wonder?

 

I looked at every link Calm has posted and none of it proves anything other than bleach can disinfect hard surfaces-see my posts above. It is not groundbreaking, it is not a cure for AIDS, it is not a cure for cancer, it is not a cure for malaria. Frankly the easiest fix for malaria is providing people with mosquito nets.

 

Go figure-talk about a natural method for stopping the spread of a disease!!

 

 

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#78 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 09:07 AM
 
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I think they would get back what they put out. So if they were intentionally trying to decieve and harm people, than they would be victims of decit and harm themselves at some point.  As I stated in my previous post, Im not declaring I believe MMS to be a cure for anything. Im not agreeing with Calm or disagreeing.  I simply don't have enough information and look forward to doing my own research and coming to my own conclusion. You have obviously done yours and come to your conclusion which is fine. What I objected to is the level of nastiness that seemed to permeate this thread.

 

Lauren - sorry if you feel what I posted was personal - it wasn't. That is just the way I try to "be" yk? It helps keep me grounded. Believe me I can get heated and passionate about things I feel strongly about, I just try and express things in a way that might be perceived as positive because I want positive things in my life. I understand the belief in the law of attraction won't appeal to some but it's just what I believe! You know I respect your opinions as we have communicated privately. I suppose I just want us all to get along as childish a sentiment as that may be orngbiggrin.gif Again sorry if my statements offended you.
 

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How about people who market a fake cure to desperately ill and dying people? What do they get back I wonder?

 

I looked at every link Calm has posted and none of it proves anything other than bleach can disinfect hard surfaces-see my posts above. It is not groundbreaking, it is not a cure for AIDS, it is not a cure for cancer, it is not a cure for malaria. Frankly the easiest fix for malaria is providing people with mosquito nets.

 

Go figure-talk about a natural method for stopping the spread of a disease!!

 

 



 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Lauren - sorry if you feel what I posted was personal - it wasn't. That is just the way I try to "be" yk? It helps keep me grounded. Believe me I can get heated and passionate about things I feel strongly about, I just try and express things in a way that might be perceived as positive because I want positive things in my life. I understand the belief in the law of attraction won't appeal to some but it's just what I believe! You know I respect your opinions as we have communicated privately. I suppose I just want us all to get along as childish a sentiment as that may be orngbiggrin.gif Again sorry if my statements offended you. 

 



 

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#80 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 10:34 AM
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mbravebird, I'm sorry to hear about your father's illness.  Does his doctor know he is taking MMS?  Bleach really is toxic, but the effects of the toxicity are presented as "evidence" that MMS is working, so people who are desperate for hope can cling to the idea that they are being cured.  Do you feel comfortable bringing this up with your father's MD?  

 

I would caution you that most of the information on MMS on the internet is posted by salespeople.  I don't know who's coordinating the effort if not Jim Humble, but there is certainly a coordinated massive effort to make sure that any criticism of MMS online is responded to with a positive rebuttal.  Most of the rebuttals look pretty similar - I am confident that somewhere there is a form that the MMS marketing people are using.   I would urge you to stick to known sources (like government and consumer agencies that you trust for information on other matters) when looking for info on MMS.  Look out for message boards.  
 

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I am having a really hard time seeing the information past all the insults. Could you all carry the insults to PM, and keep it strictly information-based here? I really want to understand more about this, as my father was recently diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, has started MMS, and is having side effects. I lean toward suspicion of the substance, especially given the awful side effects, but I am still open to learning more about it. I will be looking at the links provided as I have time.

 

For me, it is emotionally difficult to read people's insults to each other, and it makes me suspicious of information that comes from anyone who speaks/writes like that. Think of it as good discipline for your point of view, to present your argument clearly, cogently, and without insults. I could really use a facts-based discussion of the issue, so that I could pass it along to my father as he makes a decision about whether or not to continue on.

 

I continue to be grateful for the exchange of information I can find on MDC.



 

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#81 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 10:51 AM
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I'm going to be disagreeable here - I don't believe that it's peachy keen for people to promote something that causes harm just because they passionately believe it does good.  Further, there is no rational reason to believe that MMS does good.  

 

There is plenty of evidence that it is not safe to ingest bleach.  MMS is (one of many forms of) bleach.  You wouldn't reach under your sink, pour a splash of clorox into some OJ and offer it to your child.  You know that drinking cleaning products is harmful to your internal organs.  If your child drank bleach, you would call poison control.  You would not mistake their vomiting and diarrhea for signs that they were being cured of an illness.  

 

That is what supporters of MMS are asking you to believe.  

 

The FDA has no problem with medications that cause vomiting and diarrhea as side effects.  Most of the available treatments for AIDS, malaria, and cancer cause those problems.  The difference between those treatments and MMS is that those treatments have been shown to help people.  The "side effect" of MMS is the ONLY effect.  The FDA and other health agencies have warned against MMS.  

 

 

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#82 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 11:21 AM
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Thread temporaily closed pending review.


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#83 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 01:20 PM
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There are several posts to this discussion that contain personal attacks. While strong disagreement and criticism of ideas and information are fine, words against a person's character or intentions are not. These posts must be edited to remove such remarks. I am reopening this thread so that everyone who posted in this way can edit their posts and the discussion can continue. If you're not sure if things you said were attacking and think perhaps they are borderline please edit them to remove the borderline remarks. 


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#84 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 02:57 PM
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edited out my inappropriate comments!

I hope someone else will do the same.

I have nothing  more to add to this thread, enjoy! I will follow along with interest.

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#85 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There is plenty of evidence that it is not safe to ingest bleach.  MMS is (one of many forms of) bleach.  You wouldn't reach under your sink, pour a splash of clorox into some OJ and offer it to your child.  You know that drinking cleaning products is harmful to your internal organs.  If your child drank bleach, you would call poison control.  You would not mistake their vomiting and diarrhea for signs that they were being cured of an illness.  

You didn't read my post.  The visual of someone gulping down chlorox is invaluable to your argument, in fact, it is the only thing critics have - hence it is what you will see repeated over and over and over and over and over.... but nothing substantial other than that.  Chlorox is sodium hypochlorite, so you do need to distinguish between the chemistry, you cannot just say something to the effect, "all bleach is the same" because that is untrue.  If you are going to state these things, you need to back them up, because there are things being stated on here that are false, and that is not helpful to people dealing with MMS in their lives, or if they know someone who is.  They need the information to back up why it isn't safe, because if their relative has been sent home from hospital to die... Have you thought this through?  

 

In an effort to kill off cancerous cells people are being pumped with all sorts of rubbish, stuff that has been proven to kill in small doses, to harm in small doses.  They do this because it is life or death.  Not all our decisions are made holding the hand of someone in a lab coat.  Not all medicines we take have the approval of some agency with more power and money than God.  

 

Not one person can furnish evidence it is harmful.  I ask... is there any?  Can anyone help us see what damage this does to the body?  I can quickly find evidence chlorox is harmful if ingested.  A quick google and I can find tons of it, and people who have died from drinking it and the thousands of hospital visits due to household bleach.  If it is so toxic, surely there would be a ton of evidence to support that belief.  

 

In one of the links I provided, there is extensive references to decades worth of research on chlorine dioxide... perhaps reading what I have will give you better science than "it is bleach", which, as I said, so is lemon juice.  Do you know how lemon juice bleaches?  It is an antioxidant, so it certainly doesn't work like an oxidiser.  It doesn't chlorinate either.  You do need to give more chem than "hey, it's bleach".   "Bleach", without understanding the chemistry of how an oxidiser works, is not a helpful argument.  It isn't chlorox, just as it also isn't table salt - both of which are sodiums with chlorine in them.  Chlorox chlorinates... do you know the difference between that and an oxidiser?  Do you know at what point, and how, an oxidiser becomes harmful to body tissue?  Do you know why chlorination is a harmful chemical reaction, and why oxidation is a natural process used by the immune system?  If you don't know this difference, that is a good place to begin.

 

I have given evidence it is not harmful in settings where people ingested it, and in comparative mice studies - 70% of those who didn't have it died and 100% of those who did, survived.  That is significant.  The option is always there to ignore clinical studies, I'm the first one to suggest they are highly flawed at best.  

 

 

 

Quote:
 
Again you are not ingesting it. You are using it like Listerine which also cautions you against swallowing it. Same with gargling salt water. If you swallow it chances are very good you will vomit. Does this mean a salt water gargle is cleansing my body of toxins and pathogens? Because that is what the makers of MMS claim when you vomit.

Yes, but you wouldn't gargle with chlorox, right?  Not every link was to prove efficacy or to prove safety.  Each one served it's own purpose.  

 

Herxheimer reactions aren't mysterious.  I personally do not know if MMS is a herx or if it is a side effect.  I do know that the new protocol, which is only 3 drops per hour for 8 to 10 hours a day, does not cause it for most people and if a worsening occurs to drop the dose.  The workers in Malawi discovered this method for chronic issues like AIDS and cancer.  When it was malaria, a 15 drop dose was used due to the dangerous and acute nature of malaria.  15 drops (I've been told, not making claims) took the malaria away.  The doctors have written about it as they had blood labs done and even in the most profuse case of malaria not one parasite could be found in the blood work after three doses of 15 drops.  However, 15 drops, the first ever protocol born of the malaria discovery, could not be maintained by chronic cases where they might have to stay on MMS for four weeks.  So they found 3 drops, but more often, kept the dioxide in the system, but not enough to create symptoms.  As I am told by two people I trust, in 3 weeks most of the AIDS and cancer patients were free of symptoms with this method.  A small number of people took longer.  If you think I don't know how ridiculous that sounds, well, we're on different planets.  I know it sound ridiculous.  If it weren't for the people I actually know personally who had similar results, I would not have researched to the extent I did.  

 

It was when I saw what the missionaries were doing, plus the chemistry, plus the total absence of evidence of harm that led me to look deeper.  What those missionaries are achieving should be on 60 minutes or something.  It's absolutely crucial to the progress of medicine for people to at least look at this with scientific eyes, with logical eyes, not clouded by a determination not to be "wrong".  I first wanted to know if and how it works in the body... no point finding out it is safe if it doesn't even work.  I found studies that the gas does permeate, throughout the whole body very effectively.  So then I wanted to know what byproducts it created (chlorox, for example kills via byproducts) and learned it creates benign substances, such as table salt.  In the doses taken (three drops) you can imagine the tiny amount of table salt that is.  

 

I had endometriosis, fibroids, and huge cysts on both ovaries and cysts all throughout my uterus and cervix.  After I heard from my HIV+ friends, I became my own guinea pig.  Indeed, my first period after taking it was pain-free, no clots, nice bright red blood... just a totally healthy period that I hadn't had in a very long time.  So I went and got an ultra sound.  All clear.  No cysts, no free fluid, nothing.  Perhaps it was a coincidence.  I'm not giving my opinion on it.  Just stating the correlation.  

 

From that point on, well, things spiralled into where I am today with it.  I do a lot of research.  For instance, this is an old experiment I did on myself (not with MMS): http://sagaciousmama.synthasite.com/moles.php

 

This is a thread here at MDC I did that took much more concentration than this one, and again, I didn't do it cos I'm nuts or making money because I'm neither (well, nuts is debatable)... I love what I do.  I LOVE it.  I spend most of my free time learning about health and healing, I do it because it is my thing, my joy.  Not all of us have ulterior motives.  I don't need money, I don't want money, and I believe all people should have access to healing, just like they do in tribal cultures.  I acknowledge I am a radical, I am usually the most radical in a group of extreme radicals.  I know that.  I just don't see the significance.  All my research errs on the side of "that is crazy", and again, I don't care.  Crazy thinking is what gets us out of a rut.  

 

The missionaries are not lying to suggest they are is... well, I can't even validate the scope of such an accusation and they certainly are not faking African video footage... so that only leaves room for one thing.  It still doesn't tell us if it is safe, ultimately.  So you either trust the fact that people get better, not worse from it...or you don't.  But if you discredit something, opinion isn't strong enough, not when it opposes all those Jesus lovin' liars in Africa.  When it comes to unconscionable, ignoring the success of the work in Africa has got to take the cake.  Millions of people die from malaria every year, mosquito nets are not helping the sick.  If you don't believe it is working, is it that you don't trust missionaries, are you suggesting they're lying?  Do you think it is a coincidence?  What is it that makes anyone say "it doesn't work" with absolutely no personal experience, science, or data to suggest such a thing when all the data says it does kill malaria, in water and in the body.  

 

That is precisely why it is used to treat water in the first place.  

 

Perhaps the disbelief rests on the idea that it works externally, but not in the body.  Is that the problem?  Why can't people be clearer about the concerns? I fail to understand the vagueness about this.  

 

I recognise this new and unbelievable, I realise people jump to the idea that those spreading it must be either motivated by greed or something else less altruistic.  I can't prove I'm not, but I can give you the history that at least shows that I have a history of helping for nothing, that I do not get anything in return for the information I give, and that is, again, all this is. 

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#86 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 05:32 PM
 
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I am not trying to convince you of anything Calm. I am trying to ensure that no one else believes this hoax, wastes their money, and more importantly is given false hope by charlatans and snake oil salesmen.

 

You seem genuine enough-but it can't and won't change the fact that I believe what you are defending so vigorously (and with so many links that have absolutely nothing to do with MMS and it's safety) is a huge fraud perpetuated on the most vulnerable amongst us.

 

I won't be back to this thread because your links are useless, your science isn't science at all, and your desire to help people is not served by continuing to pretend this product does anything besides make people vomit. 

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#87 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 05:42 PM
 
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I'm going to be disagreeable here - I don't believe that it's peachy keen for people to promote something that causes harm just because they passionately believe it does good.  Further, there is no rational reason to believe that MMS does good.  

 

There is plenty of evidence that it is not safe to ingest bleach.  MMS is (one of many forms of) bleach.  You wouldn't reach under your sink, pour a splash of clorox into some OJ and offer it to your child.  You know that drinking cleaning products is harmful to your internal organs.  If your child drank bleach, you would call poison control.  You would not mistake their vomiting and diarrhea for signs that they were being cured of an illness.  

 

That is what supporters of MMS are asking you to believe.  

 

The FDA has no problem with medications that cause vomiting and diarrhea as side effects.  Most of the available treatments for AIDS, malaria, and cancer cause those problems.  The difference between those treatments and MMS is that those treatments have been shown to help people.  The "side effect" of MMS is the ONLY effect.  The FDA and other health agencies have warned against MMS.  

 

 


Just to reiterate what's being said here... my mom sat me on the washer while she did the clothes one day. I was a toddler.. I grabbed the cup of bleach and drank it. I nearly died. I was in the hospital for days. Ingesting bleach is not a cure for anything.

If I suspected you gave your child bleach on purpose, I might call CPS to protect your child.
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I'm going to be disagreeable here - I don't believe that it's peachy keen for people to promote something that causes harm just because they passionately believe it does good.  



Couldn't the same be said for vaccines?


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mbravebird, I'm sorry to hear about your father's illness.  Does his doctor know he is taking MMS?  Bleach really is toxic, but the effects of the toxicity are presented as "evidence" that MMS is working, so people who are desperate for hope can cling to the idea that they are being cured.  Do you feel comfortable bringing this up with your father's MD?


I don't. I am in another state, and have never met his doctor, and his doctor does not seem all that competent from the few actions I've seen. He also is at a stage where the traditional doctor does not have much to offer in terms of survival rate with chemo -- the stats just don't support much benefit, and many people choose not to do chemo with stats like that, even those who aren't into alternative approaches. He just got the diagnosis last week, so it's all new. My father is applying to work with a very well-respected physician who also does nutritional cancer treatment, and plans to tell him about the MMS.


 

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Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

edited out my inappropriate comments!

I hope someone else will do the same.

I have nothing  more to add to this thread, enjoy! I will follow along with interest.

 

Lauren, I appreciate your perspective, and am interested in what you have to say.
 


 

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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

Perhaps the disbelief rests on the idea that it works externally, but not in the body.  Is that the problem?  Why can't people be clearer about the concerns? I fail to understand the vagueness about this. 


Yes, that is one of the reasons for disbelief that is rattling around in my head. I think the "different chemical processes" argument that you present is an interesting one, although I don't fully understand it yet, so can't judge if it's accurate.

 

My main concern and suspicion is based on the symptoms my father is having, which to me seem very similar to poison reactions. Detox or herx reactions that I've seen and worked with have never been this intense. This seems very consistent with poisoning symptoms. My father is having trouble getting the calories he needs because of these reactions, and we all know that starving won't help him. He is not even actively vomiting; he reduced his dose when that happened. But even at a low dose, his stomach almost completely shuts down, and he can't abide even small bites of food. He can only eat in the morning, after he's had a break from the MMS all night.

 

This study: http://www.alternative-cancer-care.com/MMS_Cancer_Study.html

is an informal study on MMS and cancer patients, and I'm not sure it has very convincing things to say, honestly. The thing that stands out the most to me is the fact that most people in the study discontinued the MMS because of the side effects. Seeing what my father is facing, I can understand that. It really does not seems like something to dismiss, and it seems a rather widespread experience, so I'd like to see some further investigating of that. I understand you are saying that no one can prove it is "safe", and that you are simply arguing that it is, rather, "not life-threatening" -- is that right? But that doesn't seem like a curious enough reaction, honestly, given the feedback that people taking MMS are giving -- which is that the "side effects" are so bad that they just can't continue taking it. Side effects of chemo are bad, too, but everyone freely admits that that's because it's a process of poisoning. If that's what's happening with MMS, I'd like it to be discussed just as openly, instead of dismissed.


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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein

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#90 of 339 Old 04-26-2011, 08:12 PM
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You didn't read my post.  The visual of someone gulping down chlorox is invaluable to your argument, in fact, it is the only thing critics have - hence it is what you will see repeated over and over and over and over and over.... but nothing substantial other than that.  Chlorox is sodium hypochlorite, so you do need to distinguish between the chemistry, you cannot just say something to the effect, "all bleach is the same" because that is untrue.  If you are going to state these things, you need to back them up, because there are things being stated on here that are false, and that is not helpful to people dealing with MMS in their lives, or if they know someone who is.  They need the information to back up why it isn't safe, because if their relative has been sent home from hospital to die... Have you thought this through?  

 

In an effort to kill off cancerous cells people are being pumped with all sorts of rubbish, stuff that has been proven to kill in small doses, to harm in small doses.  They do this because it is life or death.  Not all our decisions are made holding the hand of someone in a lab coat.  Not all medicines we take have the approval of some agency with more power and money than God.  

 

Not one person can furnish evidence it is harmful.  I ask... is there any?  Can anyone help us see what damage this does to the body?  I can quickly find evidence chlorox is harmful if ingested.  A quick google and I can find tons of it, and people who have died from drinking it and the thousands of hospital visits due to household bleach.  If it is so toxic, surely there would be a ton of evidence to support that belief.  

 

In one of the links I provided, there is extensive references to decades worth of research on chlorine dioxide... perhaps reading what I have will give you better science than "it is bleach", which, as I said, so is lemon juice.  Do you know how lemon juice bleaches?  It is an antioxidant, so it certainly doesn't work like an oxidiser.  It doesn't chlorinate either.  You do need to give more chem than "hey, it's bleach".   "Bleach", without understanding the chemistry of how an oxidiser works, is not a helpful argument.  It isn't chlorox, just as it also isn't table salt - both of which are sodiums with chlorine in them.  Chlorox chlorinates... do you know the difference between that and an oxidiser?  Do you know at what point, and how, an oxidiser becomes harmful to body tissue?  Do you know why chlorination is a harmful chemical reaction, and why oxidation is a natural process used by the immune system?  If you don't know this difference, that is a good place to begin.

 

I have given evidence it is not harmful in settings where people ingested it, and in comparative mice studies - 70% of those who didn't have it died and 100% of those who did, survived.  That is significant.  The option is always there to ignore clinical studies, I'm the first one to suggest they are highly flawed at best.  

 

 

 

Yes, but you wouldn't gargle with chlorox, right?  Not every link was to prove efficacy or to prove safety.  Each one served it's own purpose.  

 

Herxheimer reactions aren't mysterious.  I personally do not know if MMS is a herx or if it is a side effect.  I do know that the new protocol, which is only 3 drops per hour for 8 to 10 hours a day, does not cause it for most people and if a worsening occurs to drop the dose.  The workers in Malawi discovered this method for chronic issues like AIDS and cancer.  When it was malaria, a 15 drop dose was used due to the dangerous and acute nature of malaria.  15 drops (I've been told, not making claims) took the malaria away.  The doctors have written about it as they had blood labs done and even in the most profuse case of malaria not one parasite could be found in the blood work after three doses of 15 drops.  However, 15 drops, the first ever protocol born of the malaria discovery, could not be maintained by chronic cases where they might have to stay on MMS for four weeks.  So they found 3 drops, but more often, kept the dioxide in the system, but not enough to create symptoms.  As I am told by two people I trust, in 3 weeks most of the AIDS and cancer patients were free of symptoms with this method.  A small number of people took longer.  If you think I don't know how ridiculous that sounds, well, we're on different planets.  I know it sound ridiculous.  If it weren't for the people I actually know personally who had similar results, I would not have researched to the extent I did.  

 

It was when I saw what the missionaries were doing, plus the chemistry, plus the total absence of evidence of harm that led me to look deeper.  What those missionaries are achieving should be on 60 minutes or something.  It's absolutely crucial to the progress of medicine for people to at least look at this with scientific eyes, with logical eyes, not clouded by a determination not to be "wrong".  I first wanted to know if and how it works in the body... no point finding out it is safe if it doesn't even work.  I found studies that the gas does permeate, throughout the whole body very effectively.  So then I wanted to know what byproducts it created (chlorox, for example kills via byproducts) and learned it creates benign substances, such as table salt.  In the doses taken (three drops) you can imagine the tiny amount of table salt that is.  

 

I had endometriosis, fibroids, and huge cysts on both ovaries and cysts all throughout my uterus and cervix.  After I heard from my HIV+ friends, I became my own guinea pig.  Indeed, my first period after taking it was pain-free, no clots, nice bright red blood... just a totally healthy period that I hadn't had in a very long time.  So I went and got an ultra sound.  All clear.  No cysts, no free fluid, nothing.  Perhaps it was a coincidence.  I'm not giving my opinion on it.  Just stating the correlation.  

 

From that point on, well, things spiralled into where I am today with it.  I do a lot of research.  For instance, this is an old experiment I did on myself (not with MMS): http://sagaciousmama.synthasite.com/moles.php

 

This is a thread here at MDC I did that took much more concentration than this one, and again, I didn't do it cos I'm nuts or making money because I'm neither (well, nuts is debatable)... I love what I do.  I LOVE it.  I spend most of my free time learning about health and healing, I do it because it is my thing, my joy.  Not all of us have ulterior motives.  I don't need money, I don't want money, and I believe all people should have access to healing, just like they do in tribal cultures.  I acknowledge I am a radical, I am usually the most radical in a group of extreme radicals.  I know that.  I just don't see the significance.  All my research errs on the side of "that is crazy", and again, I don't care.  Crazy thinking is what gets us out of a rut.  

 

The missionaries are not lying to suggest they are is... well, I can't even validate the scope of such an accusation and they certainly are not faking African video footage... so that only leaves room for one thing.  It still doesn't tell us if it is safe, ultimately.  So you either trust the fact that people get better, not worse from it...or you don't.  But if you discredit something, opinion isn't strong enough, not when it opposes all those Jesus lovin' liars in Africa.  When it comes to unconscionable, ignoring the success of the work in Africa has got to take the cake.  Millions of people die from malaria every year, mosquito nets are not helping the sick.  If you don't believe it is working, is it that you don't trust missionaries, are you suggesting they're lying?  Do you think it is a coincidence?  What is it that makes anyone say "it doesn't work" with absolutely no personal experience, science, or data to suggest such a thing when all the data says it does kill malaria, in water and in the body.  

 

That is precisely why it is used to treat water in the first place.  

 

Perhaps the disbelief rests on the idea that it works externally, but not in the body.  Is that the problem?  Why can't people be clearer about the concerns? I fail to understand the vagueness about this.  

 

I recognise this new and unbelievable, I realise people jump to the idea that those spreading it must be either motivated by greed or something else less altruistic.  I can't prove I'm not, but I can give you the history that at least shows that I have a history of helping for nothing, that I do not get anything in return for the information I give, and that is, again, all this is. 



Calm, no one has done human studies on the impacts of drinking industrial solvents lately - I can't imagine they would get permission from their institutional review boards.  But we don't need to study it, honestly.  There are enough accounts of exposure to make the case for concerns about safety.  According to the msds on ClO2 and on Sodium hypochloride (clorox), ClO2 has an LD 50 of about 292 mg/kg, and bleach has an LD50 of around 90 mL/kg (both measured through oral exposure in rats).  Both substances are respiratory irritants.  Both substances are surface disinfectants, as another poster has already pointed out in her extensive response to your citations.  Both substances are described as hazardous if ingested.  (ClO2: http://www.haloxtech.com/pdf/MSDS-Chlorinedioxide(ClO2)-540ppm.pdfhttp://www.puremash.com/pdfs/MaterialDataSheetCIO2.pdf Sodium Hypochloride: http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/NaOCl-6pct.htm) I'm going to continue to call both of them bleach.  

 

I have no idea what is going on in the mouse studies you refer to.  Perhaps you could provide a link?  

 

I would have no problem pumping people full of a substance that had unfortunate side effects if that substance had been shown to offer realistic hope of improving their condition.  This is why, while I understand that chemotherapy makes people feel terrible, I think it's still a sensible option for many cancer patients.  My problem with MMS is that no data suggests that it cures any medical condition.  The FDA consumer warning on MMS expressly addresses this.  You've said that it prevents infection, and then provided links to examples of MMS preventing infection when used as a water purifier or a surface disinfectant.  The data you have presented do not support ingestion as a means of curing disease.  

 

You don't get real Herxheimer reactions unless you are recovering from a disease that produces spirochetes, like Lyme disease or syphilis.  HIV does not produce spirochetes.  Neither do malaria or cancers.  You can get diarrhea or vomiting that people call Herxheimer reactions because they want to feel good about the alarming symptoms they are seeing.  But really, that's a side effect of either treatment or disease.  Again, I have no problem with a treatment for a deadly disease that causes short term diarrhea and vomiting.  My issue with MMS is that this is the ONLY effect.  There is no proof of MMS being an effective treatment for any disease.  Neither you, Calm, nor anyone in any of your links has proposed a mechanism by which MMS would travel from the digestive system to the blood, organs, or bone marrow to act on the many conditions MMS is alleged to treat.  

 

Video footage is not medical evidence.  You can produce hours of footage of doctors treating people, and all it proves is that some people were in front of a camera.  You keep mentioning that these people are missionaries.  I don't care.  Calling yourself a missionary does not make you a medical expert.  History has plenty of examples of people calling themselves missionaries and actually being criminals and con men - two groups of people who like to call themselves missionaries because it makes people trust them.  

 

I have no doubt of your history of wanting to help people and loving what you do.  You also have a history of making bizarre claims on MDC.  A couple years back, you claimed that HIV didn't cause AIDS and those symptoms in gay men were actually a result of using poppers.  A few weeks ago, you claimed to have met many people over the age of 130 in your world travels (the world record for longest recorded life is 114 years).  I think it's possible that you genuinely believe these things.  If your belief is genuine, it doesn't make these things true.  

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