Spin-off discussion about Chlorine Dioxide/MMS and the eradication of disease - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post



I'm not sure what levels are recommended in drinking water.  I know that 1 drop (15mg chlorine dioxide) treats 1 liter of water when you travel.  That is about 4 drops per gallon.  3 drops is an MMS dose, which is apparently in the system an hour or so as the gas is used up fast.  So I would assume from that it is higher than the dose used to treat water.  

 

The patents relied on the fact that at concentrations below 0.001%, ClO2 is isotonic - cannot harm red blood cells.  All uses of MMS are concentrations below 10% of 0.001% concentration.  

 

 

Why are you saying "patents" (plural)? You linked to 4 patents, and only one of them mentioned CIO2. Perhaps you're just trying to keep us on our toes? :)

 


 

 

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#182 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No. That's not true. That's taking the numbers and making them say something that's not representative of the situation. Your statement leads people to believe that of all people, with all kinds of cancer, who undergo chemo, only 3 percent have any success with it. And that's just not true. You can't just lump all the cancers together like that and make a blanket statement. Different cancers, different ballgame. It's this very type of math that will lead me to doubt everything else you're saying. You can keep standing behind the math, but it's just number manipulation. It doesn't mean anything to average all the different kinds of cancers together. It's like, OK, I live in a very rainy climate where it is often necessary to lime the soil to bring it back into a desirable pH level. So if I went all over the world, all different types of soils, and limed them all, I'd kill a lot of soil and create some serious growing problems. This is because not everywhere has the same conditions and same soil to begin with. If I then averaged out all the success vs failure rates of all these different soils/grasses, I'd come up with a very low number. But that doesn't change the fact that where I live, the soil here benefits at a very high rate from being limed. And there's very little point in averaging out all the lime failure rates and holding it up as the gold standard of lime efficiency. 

When people keep saying mms just makes you sick and you don't even get a benefit from it, it was compared to chemo and that is a fair comparison based on the MMS beliefs here of sickness vs efficacy.  I brought out the numbers to prove that chemo has a proven low rate of success because a doctor suggested it is a decent method of treatment and didn't believe me when I quoted the actual percentage.  The rest is for you to sort out, because oncology shares my belief that knowing an overall rate of success is worth knowing.  

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#183 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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hmm still reading this thread with interest.

 

I had no idea that Wikipedia was now a respected source for information about medical topics...Who knew..

 

I also love how anyone who disagrees with MMS as the panacea of all panaceas just "doesn't understand the chemistry"...I had no idea that not agreeing with a certain poster made you completely ignorant of science in general. Finally Calm, why do you continuously cherry pick which questions you want to answer while ignoring some big ones that apparently aren't jiving with the claims you are making. The questions you ignore are the ones that are hard for you to answe because MMS doesn't really do what you want us to believe it does. I don't understand why you keep posting link after link that has little to do with MMS itself...studies about water disinfection, a gas killing pathogens in the air and suddenly that means MMS cures CANCER, AIDS, MALARIA, AUTISM and a host of other ailments...The Autism claim being the most insulting to me having worked with kiddos with Autism and nannied for a very sweet boy who was borderline but was diagnosed as an Aspie. 

 

To those of you continually pointing out the flaws in Calm's arguments I would simply say, don't waste your time as upsetting and frustrating as it might be...

I say they don't understand the chemistry because they don't understand the chemistry.  There are many who have disagreed with it in the past who have demonstrated an understanding of chemistry.  They ask different questions, usually based on chemistry.  People trained in science tend to ask questions, not make statements... it's a basic fundamental of learning but esp in science.  I've four subjects left to complete my health science degree, I'm currently preparing for an exam, actually.  I get into many online and offline science debates, esp regarding health.  They are nothing like this one, and that's the kindest way I can put it.

 

And let me tell you something about frustrating... frustrating is discussing a scientific topic with people who know little to nothing about science, who have one word as their argument point (bleach) and don't seem to read or understand the information. 

 

ETA - if I have overlooked a question or answered it ineffectively, just let me know.  There is really no need to make it out as though I'm being intentionally difficult.  I'm doing my best here.  I also know that for those in this discussion, there is no opening your eyes to what this is doing unless CNN, the AMA or the FDA tells you so.... so sometimes finding the motivation to bother isn't forthcoming.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#184 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 02:15 PM
 
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I also know that for those in this discussion, there is no opening your eyes to what this is doing unless CNN, the AMA or the FDA tells you so 

 

 

Oh goodness-you have finally broken out the tired "it's because we are part of the establishment that we don't understand" card. I am surprised you didn't accuse us of being part of big pHARMa.

 

It isn't that I blindly believe CNN or the FDA-it is that I DON'T believe anything you say and the more you post the less I believe and the less impressed I am.

 

And that autism email actually made me feel ill. You backpeddled pretty quickly I noticed-claiming you have no connection to that group-so I simply can't understand why you would have posted it at all. It is the equivalent of forwarding a snopes.com known scam.

 

 

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#185 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A couple of them say:


 

 

1) that's not even CIO2

 

2) even if it were, they wash the disinfectant out with saline before the virus-free blood is considered safe for humans.

There are many posts, it is difficult to keep on top of them.

 

Sodium chlorite is MMS.  When you buy it you buy sodium chlorite.  When you make it with salt, you turn sodium chloride into sodium chlorite.  If you continue to read past the abstact, you will see they say it is what they prepare the disinfectant with.  Further in the patent disclosure, you would have found:

 

 

Quote:

8. A method for disinfecting red blood cells from HIV-1 virus, without harming said red blood cells, which comprises:

a. contacting said red blood cells with a disinfectant, said disinfectant consisting essentially of an isotonic solution of chlorine dioxide in normal saline in an amount sufficient to inactivate HIV-1 virus present;

 

...

 

19. The method of claim 13 wherein the water soluble chlorine dioxide liberating compound is sodium chlorite.

 

 

If my posts were read, even the boring long ones, in fact especially the boring long ones, you will have already known that.  I explained in detail how you make chlorine dioxide from sodium chlorite.  Specifically, this post.  

 

 

Chlorine dioxide comes in direct contact with the very cells people are suggesting they cannot do without harming them.  The chemistry is such that it cannot harm healthy human cells and it has been difficult for me to find a way to demonstrate that in a way that people might understand and since the actual chemistry pages didn't do it I thought the explanations in the patents would.  

 

In 12 years of use in the way MMS is used, there has been no evidence of damage to the body.

 

The doctors who are working with chlorine dioxide (often outside the States) had to first go through the chemistry themselves.  It isn't something even all scientists know.  Each substance is different and is a whole process of learning on its own.  But when they learn the chemistry, they see it doesn't harm, that it can't harm, it doesn't have the strength.  Put it against a tissue cell, such as a blood cell, and it cannot harm it (such as described in the patents).  But a malaria parasite for instance, it has a different charge on the cell, and straight away the dioxides rip the parasite open... it cannot do that to healthy cells.  Healthy cells carry a different charge.  

 

Ack.  This has become too difficult for me to explain because it shouldn't be up to me to teach science here.  I've given the links.  Do a google.  Make an effort.  If this really inspires you, and if for even a moment you'd hate to imagine the idea that this works and could perhaps deny many people relief from their suffering... then this shouldn't be all that difficult to research.  Many doctors and scientists have come before you and accepted it could work after extensive research (not just looking for the easy way out of someone handing them a ready-made clinical trial, MUCH comes before a clinical trial even starts), and learned it was safe so they tentatively tried it with patients.  One doctor even went to Africa and did extensive testing and wrote a book on it.  (ask if you'd like the link to the book)  Another woman has a book full of testimonials and other info.  

 

You can say any of us could write a bunch of bollocks and sell it as a book, but that first requires that you call them liars.  Which is a big step to take, because that is implying fraud.  The doctors have photos and data to support the work they did.  Really, to say this doesn't work is not just implying Jim is lying... it is implying all those who have written testimonials are lying (my sister in law is one of them), Kerri is lying (she is a respected worker with autistic kids), the missionaries are lying, the doctors are lying, Adam is lying, I am lying and anyone you know who has had success is lying.  That is a whackin' great load of liars!  Many of them are professionals with nothing to gain from lying... they don't sell it and their books don't sell enough to make them quit medicine.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#186 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why are you saying "patents" (plural)? You linked to 4 patents, and only one of them mentioned CIO2. Perhaps you're just trying to keep us on our toes? :)

 


 

 


Um, I don't even know what you're talking about.  Perhaps you opened different links?

 


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#187 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 the more you post the less I believe and the less impressed I am.

 

 

Really?  So you thought this was just a great idea to begin with did you?  Because from the get go all you've done is be completely closed and antagonistic so I do not believe you are less impressed... i gave a TON of data, data that has impressed scientists and doctors.  This kind of comment reminds me of the ones that came just after I did the FAQ one... just saying negative things without even looking into it.

 

 

 

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And that autism email actually made me feel ill. You backpeddled pretty quickly I noticed-claiming you have no connection to that group-so I simply can't understand why you would have posted it at all. It is the equivalent of forwarding a snopes.com known scam.

It makes me ill you would deny those kids relief.  Kerri is a real person, and a really nice one, too actually.  She is actually DOING what she wrote about.  Many people are.  Why don't you research the work being done on this, it is all over the world.  Are you seriously calling these professionals liars?  Is that the best you have?  Why would they lie?  

 

They give the stuff out for free!  

 

What you are saying makes no sense.

 

 

 


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#188 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 02:55 PM
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I say they don't understand the chemistry because they don't understand the chemistry.  There are many who have disagreed with it in the past who have demonstrated an understanding of chemistry.  They ask different questions, usually based on chemistry.  People trained in science tend to ask questions, not make statements... it's a basic fundamental of learning but esp in science.  I've four subjects left to complete my health science degree, I'm currently preparing for an exam, actually.  I get into many online and offline science debates, esp regarding health.  They are nothing like this one, and that's the kindest way I can put it.

 

And let me tell you something about frustrating... frustrating is discussing a scientific topic with people who know little to nothing about science, who have one word as their argument point (bleach) and don't seem to read or understand the information. 

 

ETA - if I have overlooked a question or answered it ineffectively, just let me know.  There is really no need to make it out as though I'm being intentionally difficult.  I'm doing my best here.  I also know that for those in this discussion, there is no opening your eyes to what this is doing unless CNN, the AMA or the FDA tells you so.... so sometimes finding the motivation to bother isn't forthcoming.

passive aggressively insulting people's intelligence and claiming we are all surely just sheep who believe whatever news organizations and government agencies tell us is highly amusing, especially on boards such as MDC...

 

Perhaps your issue calm is that you can't believe that intelligent women look at the "information" and links you have provided and see nothing but wild claims with no proof and an online character who dogmatically insists she is right without anything to back it up...I would be frustrated too if I were you, trying to convince people that such ridiculous claims are true must be utterly exhausting...not joking about that. Read through other people's posts there are plenty of questions you ignored...start with the most recent with wormwood curing breast cancer with 100% success and you also claiming it cures malaria...Go backwards after that and you will find many more questions you just ignored in favor of those you could attempt to provide links to, although we've seen most of yours links (because yes people are looking at them no matter how often you insist no one is) have little do with the actual claims you make about MMS.

 

 

 

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#189 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:00 PM
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Oh as far as people calling the MMS stuff a "fraud" and how that is a "big leap"...Well unfortunately we aren't allowed to use that word here for UAV reasons.....

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#190 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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BTW, I did not backpeddle, I wrote at the top of that email that I did not write it and make no claims.  Someone suggested it was mine, so I reiterated.

 

And I posted it because it is worth knowing!  Do you want us all to keep this information from you so the lies and slanging can go unchallenged? 

 

Stop being so rude.  It is bloody unnecessary and stressing me out.  Does that make you happy to know?  Do you think I'm some maker of MMS or seller of it, or that I have some ulterior motive or am some kind of whacked out bitch?  I have five years of history on MDC, and perhaps a few threads have some claims considered wild, but other than that I'm just a regular mum with regular challenges... my 3 yo is weaning and I'm emotional and no one is responding to my posts here about it... my daughter might be dyspraxic like me and I'm not sure what to do... I'm just ME!  And i'm considered a really  nice person, if a little standoffish (when I was young, it was called "shy").  I'm not suggesting you like me or even to be nice to me but I am suggesting I am a real live person who is feeling a lot of ergh-ness and veiled insult here.  I thought people might want to learn what else is out there.  I'm not an MMS expert, although it wouldn't be hard to be one because the science is all out there.  

 

Finding fault in me or my presentation of this is not the same as finding fault in MMS.  If I've messed this up in some way, then ok.  My apologies.  But why it seems to be so gleeful to treat someone the way I've been treated just makes me so disheartened about humanity.  To see such a streak of that and knowing that if your posts wouldn't be removed, what i'd actually have to read... and we all KNOW what would be directed right at me about this if some of you could... so for anyone to even DARE suggest passive aggression from me oughta just take a step back and learn some empathy... what would you do in this situation?  It isn't easy, and I'm only human.  Cut a girl some slack and just TALK to me.

 

Lauren, I am not intentionally overlooking anything.  You are assuming the worst again, and I am not an asshole so stop suggesting I am.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#191 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh as far as people calling the MMS stuff a "fraud" and how that is a "big leap"...Well unfortunately we aren't allowed to use that word here for UAV reasons.....UNFORTUNATELY.

Cross posts.  

 

I rest my case.


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#192 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

 

 

Cross posts.  

 

I rest my case.



Being smug won't back your claims up either...

Once again I will take a short break from this thread but follow along with interest, lest I say I what I really think of what you and all your friends are doing.

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#193 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We already know what you think, Lauren.  Believe me, you have not been subtle.  Repeating it or making it with more vitriol doesn't make it true, it still only makes it your opinion.  The  world needs more love and understanding... it starts when we are the most challenged at delivering it.  You see me as a non person, as a bunch of words, but if we met, I know you would not be like this with me.  We'd probably laugh and say how weird it is socially online, and these differences would be no big deal.  But you've made them say something about me, that you know me in some way, and that I'm somehow deserving of insult, hurt, and goodness knows what else.  

 

If Ms ABC came on here and said, "feed your children arsenic, it will help their intelligence"  i would not believe them.  But I also would not hate on them.  Hate does not cure anything, verbal violence (including the desire to engage in it) doesn't help anything.  It only hurts.  If i feel I could educate Ms ABC on the error of her ways, then i would attempt to... but i would not try to diminish her as a person because that would not help my argument, she would start to tune me out.  I certainly would not get any joy in hurting her in some way, or labeling her.  I'd put her in a position to defend herself and I have been there myself since I was a kid.  Being laughed at and ridiculed is difficult for some of us because we didn't have the ideal childhood where what we said always made sense, and where we fit in.  I try to be sensitive to these things in others.  

 

It helps to separate the subject from the person.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#194 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:22 PM
 
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Um, I don't even know what you're talking about.  Perhaps you opened different links?

 



You're right that link #1 does make a very short, vague passing reference to CIO2 later in the text.

 

All 4 patents are actually more or less the same thing and are owned by the same guy, aren't they?

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#195 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You're right that link #1 does make a very short, vague passing reference to CIO2 later in the text.

 

All 4 patents are actually more or less the same thing and are owned by the same guy, aren't they?

It isn't a vague reference, it is what the whole paper is about.  The "disinfectant" used IS chlorine dioxide.  

 

Yes, the same guy did them.  Does that somehow negate the science?  Did you check the science he references?


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#196 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 03:30 PM
 
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I definitely have some questions. 

How has the hypothesis that this agent, taken orally, selectively destroys human cancer cells or virally infected human cells been tested? 

What is the proposed mechanism of the selectivity of this agent for pathogens or infected  or transformed cells?

 

I It's fine if you can't scan in the chemistry pages or whatever the problem was before; your own description of your understanding of the answers to these questions would be just fine. I also have a pretty good background in biochemistry so you don't need to worry about being too technical. Thank you! 

 

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Also, how would disinfecting some red blood cells in vitro help with AIDS? What you need to do there is disinfect white blood cells in vivo, and given that HIV is integrated into the genome of the infected cells, they're not at all similar jobs. 

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You can say any of us could write a bunch of bollocks and sell it as a book, but that first requires that you call them liars.  Which is a big step to take, because that is implying fraud.  The doctors have photos and data to support the work they did.  Really, to say this doesn't work is not just implying Jim is lying... it is implying all those who have written testimonials are lying (my sister in law is one of them), Kerri is lying (she is a respected worker with autistic kids), the missionaries are lying, the doctors are lying, Adam is lying, I am lying and anyone you know who has had success is lying.  That is a whackin' great load of liars!  Many of them are professionals with nothing to gain from lying... they don't sell it and their books don't sell enough to make them quit medicine.

 

Fraud happens, but I don't think it's as common as people just being wrong for more innocent reasons (including grandiosity).

 

There were hundreds of thousands of anecdotes/case reports/etc for almost a century supporting bloodletting, mercury as a cure-all, and other treatments that more sophisticated science has since been able to evaluate and find ineffective. The way people's expectations color their perceptions and memories, confirmation bias, and other perceptual tricks of the mind are the whole reason why good science is necessary.

 

In the absence of good science, skepticism is warranted. When people make really outrageous claims about stuff definitely having these outlandish effects, and they seem to be completely unaware of the cognitive glitches that everyone is affected by, they seem like a fanatic at best. Intellectually lazy appeals to conspiracy theories don't help, either. And people who understand why case reports are near the bottom of the evidence based medicine pyramid force themselves to be cautious with what they believe seems to be true, regardless of personal anecdotes and stories they read, when good science supporting the claim doesn't exist.

 

Do you think all the voodoo testimonials are the result of fraud? Do you think all the doctors who used to practice medicine based on the theory of humors were just fibbing to perpetuate fraud? Of course not. Hopefully people older than 15 understand that life is more complicated than "Either it's totally true, or the teller of the story is intentionally being a LIAR!" I mean, really, now.

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We already know what you think, Lauren.  Believe me, you have not been subtle.  Repeating it or making it with more vitriol doesn't make it true, it still only makes it your opinion.  The  world needs more love and understanding... it starts when we are the most challenged at delivering it.  You see me as a non person, as a bunch of words, but if we met, I know you would not be like this with me.  We'd probably laugh and say how weird it is socially online, and these differences would be no big deal.  But you've made them say something about me, that you know me in some way, and that I'm somehow deserving of insult, hurt, and possibly even physical harm.  

 

If Ms ABC came on here and said, "feed your children arsenic, it will help their intelligence"  i would not believe them.  But I also would not hate on them.  Hate does not cure anything, verbal violence (including the desire to engage in it) doesn't help anything.  It only hurts.  If i feel I could educate Ms ABC on the error of her ways, then i would attempt to... but i would not try to diminish her as a person because that would not help my argument, she would start to tune me out.  I certainly would not get any joy in hurting her in some way, or labeling her.  I'd put her in a position to defend herself and I have been there myself since I was a kid.  Being laughed at and ridiculed is difficult for some of us because we didn't have the ideal childhood where what we said always made sense, and where we fit in.  I try to be sensitive to these things in others.  

 

It helps to separate the subject from the person.  



I find it incredibly insulting that because if I met you in person I would say exactly what I have said here to your face ( I don't think I'd be joking with you about anything) I have somehow threatened you with physical harm...I'd appreciate an edit to that statement. Thanks. 

As far as insulting...well perhaps I just don't go the passive aggressive route which you have taken with your various shots at my intelligence etc. I have edited my posts as asked once before and if you have problems with whatever I say please feel free to discuss it with moderators who are obviously closely watching this thread. 

 

Please consider that you are accusing me of actually threatening you physically and that is really really inappropriate considering it is not true.

 

And to be blunt, yes I do think you have an ulterior motive in your pushing MMS like it is going out of style. If that is mean all I can say is that it is my opinion. Sorry if you don't like it or I should just believe you because you say don't.

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Originally Posted by Calm View Post



It isn't a vague reference, it is what the whole paper is about.  The "disinfectant" used IS chlorine dioxide.  

 

Yes, the same guy did them.  Does that somehow negate the science?  Did you check the science he references?

 

The disinfectant is described as:

 

 

Quote:

A sterilizing solution is prepared from, e.g., a commercially available disinfectant (LD.TM. Alcide Corporation) containing primarily lactic acid and sodium chlorite.

 

 

...but it does later make reference to CIO2. I don't doubt that CIO2 in sufficiently diluted doses doesn't destroy blood cells. The disinfectant is pretty much completely removed before the blood is safe to put into humans, tho. So I'm not really seeing the relevance.

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#201 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lauren, I didn't say you threatened me with physical harm.  I said I feel you think I'm deserving of hurt, possibly even physical hurt.  I altered the post.  But you know you've been harsh, and you also know that no matter how much you tell yourself there is some virtuous reason for it, there isn't one.  You've just done it, because that's what you chose to do.  You've lashed out at someone you know nothing about, based on some knee jerk reaction in you that you have justified is deserving in your mind.  Does my photo trigger you in some way?  My profile info?  Anything?  Or are you just slamming your anger at MMS at me?

 

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#202 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ccohenou, I will answer when I can, your question will take more time.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#203 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

Lauren, I didn't say you threatened me with physical harm.  I said I feel you think I'm deserving of hurt, possibly even physical hurt.  I altered the post.  But you know you've been harsh, and you also know that no matter how much you tell yourself there is some virtuous reason for it, there isn't one.  You've just done it, because that's what you chose to do.  You've lashed out at someone you know nothing about, based on some knee jerk reaction in you that you have justified is deserving in your mind.  Does my photo trigger you in some way?  My profile info?  Anything?  Or are you just slamming your anger at MMS at me?

 

 

Your opinion is you think I want you hurt or physically hurt. I don't. I have been harsh, I'm actually not apologetic for it at all. I don't want to totally derail this again but yeah it pisses me off when someone comes here claiming that there is a cure for (once again) AIDS, cancer, malaria, autism and a host of other ailments...My anger is not at MMS, it is at you, do you even realize that the most desperate of people will read this and poison themselves with this stuff. If you can say it cures everything known to man I can say it is poison....It is so sad that there are mothers who could possibly make their children take this stuff in a misguided attempt to "cure" their autism...Don't you find that sad at all? If you care so much about people why aren't you upset by that?!

 

It isn't a knee jerk reaction, it is a mounting disgust at claims that are wild and fantastic with no actual proof of anything other than it being a water disinfectant. I feel very bad for the people who will take this stuff and make themselves very ill thinking that somehow it will help them. It is worthy of anger. 

 

Once again, I invite you to show some scrap of ACTUAL evidence that MMS is a panacea...Answer that question, there is no such thing as a panacea yet you claim there is, how can you make that claim without proof? I have looked at your links, others have looked at your links. Real proof would be just super awesome at this point.
 

 

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#204 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mamakay, the relevance is, you can now say this:

 

 

 

Quote:
I don't doubt that CIO2 in sufficiently diluted doses doesn't destroy blood cells. 

 

Whereas before, you wouldn't have.  I have shown evidence that chlorine dioxide does not harm body cells when used in low enough doses.  

 

 

The problem with testimony is, the grey area you describe in between "it is true" and "it is all lies" leaves room for placebo, pretty much.  If all those doctors aren't lying, then what they have witnessed can only be true, or placebo.  Which is one of the most valid arguments I've seen here yet.  Double blind trials with placebo are warranted.  No doubt.  

 

I believe the testimonies because I have personal experience with it.  Nothing trumps personal experience, no clinical trial, nothing.  It can only bring up the question "how?".  Answering that is the next step.  Placebo?  Coincidence?  That's what the next step would find out.  

 

When a man with AIDS talked to me about MMS, I didn't say to him, "you're lying" I asked myself "how is that possible?"  Two other AIDS sufferers I knew tried it, and reported back to me.  They had no reason at all to lie, I knew their history and it wasn't some conspiracy to make some busy mum helping people with their health on the side to believe in MMS.  I didn't believe it right away, but I did believe it was possible, and that was what I needed to take me further on this journey, the mind set of possibility.  Three out of three to me dismissed placebo, and that didn't include all those and their partners who I didn't know personally but had also used it.  I believed them, because that's what you do when it isn't an online forum.  

 

I have an HIV+ friend, T, who had had troubles with a fungus for years.  Nothing had worked against it.  He hated it so desperately because he saw it as the "beginning of the end".  He lives in constant fear he will one day start dying.  He tried MMS, and his fungus went away.  His CD4 didn't change much, nor did his viral load, but he doesn't live with as much fear.  These people are not some testimonies online for me.  T is someone who's brother I know and his friends.  Can I prove what they say?  Well, if I get them to write a testimony and then I publish it here.  The problem is, you still will dismiss that as either lying or placebo.  I could just as easily write the testimony and just put it on this thread.. so HOW can I prove it?  I can't.  I did think the videos would not be so readily dismissed... but I can't do much about the fact that they are.  There's nothing I can do to increase the value of testimony.

 

Re breast cancer and wormwood, I'll have to come back.

 

 

BTW, Lauren, I am not "pushing MMS".  When I don't answer all the questions, you take issue.  When I do, you say I'm pushing it.  What do you want from me?  I mentioned it on a thread (and I can see why people stay quiet about this!) and people had conniptions and demanded more info so I am giving it.  That's all this is.  I don't mention MMS on my blog, my FB, or any of my health pages.  If I was pushing this, don't you think you'd find it in those places?  I happen to like a lot of things, it's just this one creates the most controversy.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#205 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


 

I have looked at your links, others have looked at your links. Real proof would be just super awesome at this point.

 

 

I don't need anywhere close to "proof", personally. Just at least moderately high-quality evidence. Or even medium-quality evidence. Something better than anecdotes and the stuff that convinces many that aliens visiting earth, voodoo, and bigfoot are real.


 

 

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#206 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Don't you find that sad at all? If you care so much about people why aren't you upset by that?!

Why would I find that sad?  No one has ever been harmed.  Why do you find it sad?  Because you don't believe it?   What if you're wrong?  Have you even entertained the idea?  Lemme guess... uuuhhh, no.  

 

I have already told you THERE IS NO PROOF IT WORKS AGAINST PATHOGENS INSIDE HUMANS.  So why are you still here, waiting for it?  What we are doing here, if you care to join in, is discussing how it is helping those who claim it is helping.  Are they lying, is it placebo, is it coincidence?  These are valid discussions.  The reason you can't fit into that discussion so far is you don't believe the testimonies.  Fine, then there is nothing here for you.  

 

If the testimonies inspire something in you, a "what if" or a "please explain" then formulate a question.  A prerequisite to discussing this is first the ability to accept the possibility all those people are not lying.  If you cannot do that, then you see it all as some big joke, a big hoax, a scam.  And that's fine, but I can't see what value repeating that here is to the discussion.  And that particular viewpoint is too many years old now to be of much use.  12 years on, and we're all waiting for a clinical trial, ALL of us.  You go ahead and ignore all those testimonies and wait for the clinical trial.  Meanwhile, others might not be so dismissing of the testimonies.

 

But take your anger at me and deal with it yourself.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#207 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 05:28 PM
 
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Whereas before, you wouldn't have.  I have shown evidence that chlorine dioxide does not harm body cells when used in low enough doses.  

 

 

Everyone here knows that it's used as a water purifier, so no one has doubted that if it's sufficiently diluted, it's not really harmful. I'm not really sure what to make of the fact that MMS is one tenth of what's needed to inactivate viruses in vitro in blood, but then it needs to be almost COMPLETELY REMOVED before that blood is safe to put in humans. Can you break that down a little more clearly?

 

 

Quote:
I believe the testimonies because I have personal experience with it.  Nothing trumps personal experience, no clinical trial, nothing.

 

That's what a lot of (most?) MD's said when the randomized control trials started becoming popular. Do you know how fast medical science has advanced since RCT's became standard? Doctors used to give people all kinds of crazy, ineffective stuff back in the day, and those "doctor anecdotes" (aka, case reports) made it "fact" at the time. Patients were convinced it all worked, too.

 

 

Quote:
The problem is, you still will dismiss that as either lying or placebo.  I could just as easily write the testimony and just put it on this thread.. so HOW can I prove it?  I can't.

 

There's coincidence paired with confirmation bias, too. You need to acknowledge that this is a real possibility instead of insisting that it's definitely not anything but "real".

 

 

Quote:
Re breast cancer and wormwood, I'll have to come back.

 

Thanks. I bet good evidence doesn't exist, tho. I know there's a certain amount of publication bias favoring expensive pharmaceuticals, but there's really not any sort of grand conspiracy keeping evidence about cheap and effective stuff out of the scientific literature.

 

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#208 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 06:01 PM
 
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ccohenou, I will answer when I can, your question will take more time.



I hope you will make time, since I see you have had time to make some other posts on the topic. I think these questions are really fundamental.

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#209 of 339 Old 05-01-2011, 06:59 PM
 
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I have already told you THERE IS NO PROOF IT WORKS AGAINST PATHOGENS INSIDE HUMANS.  So why are you still here, waiting for it?


 


I'm guessing it's because you've said things like:

 

 

Quote:
...people I've personally helped heal from AIDS with it...

 

That sounds pretty factual. Like you know for a fact that this has happened. No room for "maybe it wasn't exactly that." Rather, (paraphrased) "I'm positive I've cured people of AIDS!"

 

If you don't see how that's on par with claiming something along the lines of "I sparked the Egyptian Revolution with my psychic powers", then I'm sorry. But that's how it comes across.

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#210 of 339 Old 05-02-2011, 03:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ccohenou View Post

I definitely have some questions. 

How has the hypothesis that this agent, taken orally, selectively destroys human cancer cells or virally infected human cells been tested? 

What is the proposed mechanism of the selectivity of this agent for pathogens or infected  or transformed cells?

 

I It's fine if you can't scan in the chemistry pages or whatever the problem was before; your own description of your understanding of the answers to these questions would be just fine. I also have a pretty good background in biochemistry so you don't need to worry about being too technical. Thank you! 

 

The majority of pathogens in the human body are destroyed by oxidation.  That is what is naturally used by your immune system to kill pathogens.  The mechanism by which oxidation does this, you would already know as you have a good background in biochemistry.  You would also be aware of how it does this selectively, ie, leaving healthy cells and beneficial bacteria unharmed.  The body does this rather effectively, and it a mechanism to which pathogens cannot acquire resistance, meaning it will work indefinitely for us.

 

In fact, ClO2 may be one of the agents used by the body.  The WHO has data in their files indicating that ClO2 is found in all body organs.  The only way it can get there is if the body makes it.  

 

 

The oxidation power of an oxidizer is measured in electrical potential, usually in millivolts. Of the oxidizers that have been used in the human body:

 

Ozone is the strongest known oxidizer used in the body with an oxidation potential of 2070 millivolts;

 

Hydrogen peroxide is the second strongest oxidizer used in the body and it has an oxidation potential of 1800 millivolts;

 

Oxygen itself has an oxidation potential of about 1300 millivolts;

 

Chlorine dioxide has an oxidation potential of 950 millivolts.


 

Note that chlorine dioxide has the lowest oxidation potential.

 

Oxidation potential also determines what an oxidiser cannot oxidise.  It cannot oxidise the blood, tissues or cells.  High enough doses of anything will cause damage, including ClO2, but doses used according to the protocols are 100 times less than required to do such damage.

 

Another reason for selectivityis because it is isotonic, ie, does not exert enough pressure.  Tests done in the 1980's showed that at concentrations of less than 0.001% it is isotonic.  The patents I linked depend on that fact.  MMS is used at less than 10% of 0.001%.  The FDA claimed it destroys red blood cells... that fact shows that this claim is not possible. 

 

The ClO2 molecule has voltage that will draw 5 electrons from certain other molecules. When the electrons are drawn away, these molecules fly apart. They neutralize the ClO2 outer shell and that molecule also flies apart.  The chlorine atom becomes a chloride (table salt) atom and the two oxygen atoms are discharged before they leave the shell so they just collect a molecule of carbon and become carbon dioxide. They can no longer do anything in the body and thus are breathed out.

 

Its special construction gives it an unusually high oxidation capacity. The oxidation potential is weak, but the capacity is that it can draw away 5 electrons. 

 

The chlorine dioxide oxidation is:

The ClO2 ion first draws off a single electron from the pathogen;

 

That electron then comes over to the chlorine dioxide and instantly changes it to a sodium chlorite ion; and it begins to make a hole in the pathogen.

 

The ClO2 ion then draws 4 more electrons from the pathogen or the nearest other pathogen.

 

This completely destroys the sodium chlorite, leaving only sodium chloride (table salt), and two neutralized oxygen atoms that just become a part of the body’s water or part of ClO2 to be breathed out of the body. This one chlorine dioxide molecule is responsible for destroying 5 molecules in the side

of the pathogen.

 

It may take a few more molecules of chlorine dioxide to make the hole in the pathogen but that is what happens to destroy a pathogen.  In my FAQ post you'll see references to viruses killed - whether they are in the air or water or any kind of fluid, the mechanism is the same.  

 

Studies show ClO2 penetrates the entire body intact.  Whether it be plasma or water in a bucket, the mechanism against pathogens is the same.  

 

With something like cancer, if you aren't in the small minority that believes it is microbial, then it is still simply due to the fact that tumour cells behave like pathogenic microbes and exhibits the same things ClO2 targets.  Esp the hypoxic conditions... tumours cannot stand oxygenation.

 

So although we have no evidence to show efficacy in humans against pathogens when ingested, we do have evidence it penetrates to the marrow.  We have evidence it works against everything including viruses and that it does all this in fluids... which the body mostly is.  

 

Regarding safety, we have limited evidence, but there is still such evidence of ingested ClO2 in the tests done in healthy subjects with 24mg.  I think most people are now pretty aware it is safe in small enough doses.   We have evidence via the science of ClO2 it does no damage to body tissues, it simply hasn't got the potential, charge or pressure.  It can be used safely on body tissues to destroy pathogens, leaving the cells unharmed.  

 

Long term tests need to be done, and tests with higher doses.  Efficacy obviously needs to be proven also.  I'm not suggesting we have all the data.  We don't have anywhere need the needed amount of data.  I'm not claiming it can cure anything, just to reiterate.  I'm just sharing the information that suggests it could work inside the body in such a way, and perhaps safely, and sharing the stories of those who believe it has worked for them.

 

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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