Gut Biota Never Recover from Antibiotic Use: Loss Extends to Future Generations - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am sure posters here are very cautious about anti-biotic use in themselves and their children. But What I found worrying about this article is that it seems the gut flora never recovers from the loss of beneficial bacteria as the result of anti-biotic use and that this can reach through the generations, so a mother with lost flora will result in her child having lost flora too. 

 

 

 

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When a mother's microbiota is deficient, her child is born to a deficiency. The evidence now appears to show that, once a probiotic deficiency exists, it is never recovered—and it's passed down the generations. Therefore, each generation is likely to suffer from poorer health than the parents enjoyed.

 

The impact on the health of our children seems to be a pandemic of chronic diseases rare fifty years ago, with the emphasis on treating symptoms rather than finding the cause of these illness.

 

 

 

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Ever more toxic methods of suppressing symptoms, while hiding adverse effects, are researched and pushed on conventional medicine's victims.

Two of the most critical functions in health are drastically compromised in enormous numbers of today's children.The ability to metabolize food and the ability to breathe are being stolen from this generation. Yet the treatment they're receiving for this poor health does nothing to make them well. It only masks the symptoms and makes theirchildren even sicker!

 

 

 

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles501/000520-gut-bacteria-antibiotic.shtml#.Tl9_uUbIWXM

 

 


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#2 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 07:36 AM
 
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Very interesting!  Thanks for the link!


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#3 of 32 Old 09-01-2011, 11:16 AM
 
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*sigh*

I was born by c-section. I've had several course of antibiotics in my life (none that I know of as a child, but a couple in my teens, a couple more in my 20s, a couple more in my early 30s - two courses in less than three months - while my first marriage was falling apart, plus during my surgeries, and again about 3-4 years ago, when I developed probable pneumonia). My kids have all been born by c-section, so they never got populated with the appropriate gut bacteria in the first place! Then, ds1 and ds2 have each had two courses of antibiotics each (ds2 had his first one at three, but ds2 was six or seven). This is all just so depressing, and I know I can't do anything about it. I guess I'll just keep up with the probiotics and my "lax" approach to things like eating dirt, and hope things work out okay...


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#4 of 32 Old 09-02-2011, 12:28 AM
 
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Thank you for sharing that link!  This is very depressing.  As a teenager I had bad acne, so my parents took me to a dermatologist who put me on a daily antibiotic, which I took for several years.  I finally quit at age 16.5 because of recurring yeast infections and I only get them every once in awhile now, but I think that my body is still suffering from the antibiotics.  I remember as a child being on antibiotics several times as well:(

This just makes me think of my neighbors child who is the same age as DD.  He has been on antibiotics for months at a time because he gets sick so often, especially during the winter.  Of course he is only sick with a cold, but "in order to prevent the illness from progressing" he is given antibiotics, and his mom certainly pushes the Drs to give them to him as well.   Personally I think that a lot of his issue is that he is fed only garbage- candy, pop, chips and freezer meals, never a single fruit or vegetable.  But, that is besides the point.   We use probiotics too and are starting to buy keifer as well.   Is the store bought keifer as good as home made?  I really dont know that much about it, so any info you could provide me with would be great.  Sorry I know thats a little off subject:)

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*sigh*

I was born by c-section. I've had several course of antibiotics in my life (none that I know of as a child, but a couple in my teens, a couple more in my 20s, a couple more in my early 30s - two courses in less than three months - while my first marriage was falling apart, plus during my surgeries, and again about 3-4 years ago, when I developed probable pneumonia). My kids have all been born by c-section, so they never got populated with the appropriate gut bacteria in the first place! Then, ds1 and ds2 have each had two courses of antibiotics each (ds2 had his first one at three, but ds2 was six or seven). This is all just so depressing, and I know I can't do anything about it. I guess I'll just keep up with the probiotics and my "lax" approach to things like eating dirt, and hope things work out okay...


It will be fine. Before despairing, I'd wait until a more reliable source than gaia-health.com starts spreading the word. 

 

On the other hand, if we didn't use antibiotics at all, some moms wouldn't be alive to bear these supposedly gut-damaged children so I'm going to look on the bright side of this.

 


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Originally Posted by elisheva View Post




It will be fine. Before despairing, I'd wait until a more reliable source than gaia-health.com starts spreading the word. 

 

On the other hand, if we didn't use antibiotics at all, some moms wouldn't be alive to bear these supposedly gut-damaged children so I'm going to look on the bright side of this.

 



And a big, yeah that.

 

Honestly, that article is just one more way to layer on the mommy guilt. I'm not buying it.

 

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And a big, yeah that.

 

Honestly, that article is just one more way to layer on the mommy guilt. I'm not buying it.

 


Who knows?  It might be interesting to look into for future decisions.   However, there is nothing you can do about past decisions - we all make decisions we do based on info we have at the time.

 

FWIW, there are anitbiotic decisions I would not repeat, and many I absolutely would..  

 

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If BRAIN CELLS can regenerate, I'm pretty sure gut flora can too.

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#9 of 32 Old 09-02-2011, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PhoenixMommaToTwo View Post





And a big, yeah that.

 

Honestly, that article is just one more way to layer on the mommy guilt. I'm not buying it.

 



Sigh. This isn't mommy guilt, it is pharmaceutical insanity. The blame doesn't lie with mothers, but the medical community who have passed out these potent drugs like candy without regard to the outcome. Read the research links at the end of the article for yourself if you don't like the author's conclusions. I understand most all posters here believe that antibiotics have they place in medicine, but it appears the population is paying a very high price for the benefits of these drugs in the form of chronic illness. If you you don't agree, then what is causing all the autoimmune diseases so prevalent now that were so rare fifty years ago? I am "old" and grew up in the 60s, and I knew two, yes total two kids my whole childhood who had asthma and eczema and one boy with type I diabetes. That's it.  I am sorry if this information has upset posters, but surely it is worth looking at rather than dismissing as fear mongering; which, incidentally, the makers and purveyors of pharmaceutical drugs have down to a fine art.

 


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#10 of 32 Old 09-02-2011, 07:58 PM
 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-199412/Antibiotics-link-MMR-autism.html

 

My nephews (who have autism) were in a Canadian survey on the connection between antibiotics and autism.

 

The above is on antibiotics, autism and vaccines.

 

It does seem people with autism are more likely to have used antibiotics - but it does beg the question - are autistic people more likely to need antibiotics, or are antibiotics a possible cause of autism?

 

I also think there are digestive and gut issues in some on the autism spectrum - which may or may not be related to antibiotics and gut flora.

 

I know the above is not proven and probably controversial - but i am putting it out there for those who enjoy reading on such things.  

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Originally Posted by elisheva View Post




It will be fine. Before despairing, I'd wait until a more reliable source than gaia-health.com starts spreading the word. 

 

On the other hand, if we didn't use antibiotics at all, some moms wouldn't be alive to bear these supposedly gut-damaged children so I'm going to look on the bright side of this.

 


I don't even know who gaia-health.com is. What I do know is that for most of my adult life, nobody knew anything about gut flora at all. The appendix was an "evolutionary leftover", which served no purpose. The immune system didn't involve the gut at all. Etc. etc.

 

I have no doubt antibiotics can be life-saving. I'm pretty sure they saved my life after I lost Aaron. They may well have saved ds1's hearing (and, no - I'm not someone who routinely gives antibiotics for ear infections...but his eardrum actually burst). However, I have no doubt whatsoever that they've been used (as many things are) with utterly insufficient awareness that we. don't. know. enough. I suspect that saying gut flora are never restored is over dramatic and probably not entirely accurate. (At a guess, I'd say that the proper balance is either never restored, or restoration is hugely delayed). That doesn't mean concerns about this are legitimate. Antibiotics are one more useful treatment, in a long line of useful treatments, that has been elevated  to a "here take/do this, and everything will be better" status, without enough, if any, thought given to the possible ramifications of its use.

 

Every generation in western medicine has suffered from the same flaw, imo. As they/we learn more, they/we look back and say, "OMG - I can't believe they used to do that. I'm so glad we know better now." But, they/we tend to look at the current state of the art as being the destination, and forget that the journey is still happening...and that medical practitioners 20-30 years from now will be looking back on some of what's happening now, and saying, "OMG - I can't believe they used to do that. I'm so glad we know better now." I firmly believe the routine use of antibiotics will fall solidly into that category (it's already happening) and "superbugs" and yeast infections are probably only part of the picture.

 

I'm not despairing, either. I'm just...frustrated.

 


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OK I read the references- the ones that were actually journal articles.  That's because real articles don't usually reference The Daily Mail as a source.   Anyway, while the real articles do discuss subtle changes in the gut microflora as a result of repeated exposure to antibiotics, I did not see anything about these changes being passed from generation to generation, or that they were causing all sorts of horrible issues.  The Nature reference that brings this up the idea of autoimmune issues being caused by antibiotics was an editorial, not an article and not research.

 

It sees that the Gaia article took a small truth and sensationalized it.

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I'm not despairing, either. I'm just...frustrated.

 


I hear you.

 

A totally separate example:  I am overweight.  Every once in a while I think of using some diet drug - but then I remember the Phen-phen nightmare of the late 90's and decide not to.  It is really hard to know whether or not whatever you are choosing to do is actually safe - or one of those things that we will go  "Really?!  ugh... I used that" in the future.   You cannot live your life in fear, still I tend to use medication on an as needed basis and do not turn to them quickly, given the history of western medicine.

 

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nm

 

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Sigh. This isn't mommy guilt, it is pharmaceutical insanity. The blame doesn't lie with mothers, but the medical community who have passed out these potent drugs like candy without regard to the outcome. Read the research links at the end of the article for yourself if you don't like the author's conclusions. I understand most all posters here believe that antibiotics have they place in medicine, but it appears the population is paying a very high price for the benefits of these drugs in the form of chronic illness. If you you don't agree, then what is causing all the autoimmune diseases so prevalent now that were so rare fifty years ago? I am "old" and grew up in the 60s, and I knew two, yes total two kids my whole childhood who had asthma and eczema and one boy with type I diabetes. That's it.  I am sorry if this information has upset posters, but surely it is worth looking at rather than dismissing as fear mongering; which, incidentally, the makers and purveyors of pharmaceutical drugs have down to a fine art.

 



I looked at the sources. They're crap. Come back to me when you have a REAL study and viable information. Then we can discuss "gut flora" nonsense.

 

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Screwing up gut flora from antibiotics is much better than dying form an infection so I don't care if this is true or not.

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I looked at the sources. They're crap. Come back to me when you have a REAL study and viable information. Then we can discuss "gut flora" nonsense.

 


dismissive, much?

 

I think the words "gut flora nonsense" are proof you are not really interested in discussing this no matter what kind of info people bring you.

 

Here are the resources sited in the top article- others can decide for themselves whether they are crap:

 

Wired.com

abc news

daily mail

annals.org

pnas.org

plosone.org   (this plus the 2 above look quite mainstream to me)

 

The sources are at the bottom of the article the Op sited

 

 

 

 

 

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I looked at the sources. They're crap. Come back to me when you have a REAL study and viable information. Then we can discuss "gut flora" nonsense.

 


biglaugh.gif"gut flora" nonsense. Okay enough said.

 

 


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Screwing up gut flora from antibiotics is much better than dying form an infection so I don't care if this is true or not.



No one has said anything about denying people antibiotics if it could save their live, in those instances I am sure a screwed up gut is worth it, but it is a shame they will have to deal with that on top of having a potentially fatal infection.  But antibiotics are given the vast majority of times in situations where no life is threatened and there are alternatives, just not marketed by pharmaceutical corporations. Those poor people who do have messed up guts from antibiotics probably care, a lot.

 

 


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Screwing up gut flora from antibiotics is much better than dying form an infection so I don't care if this is true or not.



In the last 10-11 years, I've had antibiotics on 7 or 8 separate occasions. In two (pneumonia, and a post-partum/post-op infection from hell) of those, I think my life may have been at risk. In two other cases, I doubt my life was actually at risk (although it could have been eventually), but I would have required probably a week, maybe two, of good food, and basically sleeping all day to get back on my feet without them. I think that's a preferable route, personally, but in my particular circumstances at that time, I'd have ended up homeless. The others were all prophylactic use, during c-sections. DS1's two incidences of antibiotic use were both fairly serious illness, but it's probably an overstatement to say his life was in danger. The same applies to ds2.

 

And, I'm a hesitant user of antibiotics! I know children who have been on them 3-4-5 times a year, for ear infections, fevers, etc. etc. (ever met a 5 year old who has had almost 20 lifetime rounds of antibiotics?). Neither the parents nor the doctors want to wait. They want the symptoms gone now. I know adults who are on them multiple times a year, as well - same thing. As an example...a neighbour and I were both sick most of last year. (A lot of people around here were sick a lot - almost constantly - last school year. I think it probably had to do with the constant rain. We hardly saw sunshine for 10 months.) She was on antibiotics, for the exact same symptoms I had, twice. Another woman I know was on them three times. I never took them at all. We all had roughly the same recoveries, and I'd be willing to bet money the illnesses were viral, not bacterial. The antibiotics simply didn't help.

 

Antibiotics really are, imo, miracle medication...in certain situations, for certain infections. But, suggesting that this is a matter of "dying from infection" vs. gut flora issues is way off the mark.


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#21 of 32 Old 09-03-2011, 03:11 PM
 
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I am glad to see that you took the time to read the refrences before saying that you thought this article was full of crap:)   I think it may be exaggerated a bit, but I think we all know that overuse of antibiotics is very common and has caused a lot of problems that never existed before.  When I was in the medical field I saw A LOT of overuse of antibiotics, such as doctors prescribing them to otherwise healthy patients who came in with the common cold.  On one occasion I asked the Dr why he prescribed the antibiotics because it was obviously viral, and he said it was to keep the patient happy and keep them coming back because sometimes if you dont give them meds at an office visit then they will throw a fit to the hospital....  UGH

Here is one of my fav articles on antibiotics, it really doesnt have much to do with what this article is talking about but its still a good one :)  http://mothering.com/pregnancy-birth/treating-group-b-strep 

Anyway, in some cases antibiotics are necessary and lifesaving, but I do believe there are long term consequences to using medications, even if these causes have not been found yet.  The poor health of the US is just one of the things that makes me believe this.

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OK I read the references- the ones that were actually journal articles.  That's because real articles don't usually reference The Daily Mail as a source.   Anyway, while the real articles do discuss subtle changes in the gut microflora as a result of repeated exposure to antibiotics, I did not see anything about these changes being passed from generation to generation, or that they were causing all sorts of horrible issues.  The Nature reference that brings this up the idea of autoimmune issues being caused by antibiotics was an editorial, not an article and not research.

 

It sees that the Gaia article took a small truth and sensationalized it.

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Antibiotics really are, imo, miracle medication...in certain situations, for certain infections. But, suggesting that this is a matter of "dying from infection" vs. gut flora issues is way off the mark.

thumb.gif  I agree!

I also agree with the other things you said. 

I know a 19 month old who has been on probably 15 courses of antibiotics, all for colds, flus and and ear infections.   I have had illnesses where what I needed was some serious rest and a lot of really healthy eating, and that is the treatment I have always given DD when she has been sick(DD has only been sick a few times in her life, and she eats so healthy as it is that we dont need much diet adjustment although I do give her some manuka honey.  I believe that one reason she doesnt get sick much is because she eats so well to begin with).  DD is never sick for more than 2 days and her symptoms are always so mild.  If she gets sick, so do I, and my symptoms are always worse and last longer than hers.  I have never taken her to the Dr for being sick, but she has never been sick with more than a moderate cold so I have never really had the issue of whether or not to refuse antibiotics with her.  I would take antibiotics if it was for something really serious, I was fairly certain they would help, and I had already tried waiting it out/alternative medicines, etc.  

There is certainly a place for antibiotics, they really are a lifesaver under the right circumstances, but they wont be a lifesaver for long if they keep being used like they are right now.  Pretty soon practically every bacteria will be resistant to the antibiotics that were previously effective against them!

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No one has said anything about denying people antibiotics if it could save their live, in those instances I am sure a screwed up gut is worth it, but it is a shame they will have to deal with that on top of having a potentially fatal infection.  But antibiotics are given the vast majority of times in situations where no life is threatened and there are alternatives, just not marketed by pharmaceutical corporations. Those poor people who do have messed up guts from antibiotics probably care, a lot.

 

Thats right!  I care, I was given many antibiotics as a child for absolutely no reason(see my very first post about being given antibiotics to try to get rid of acne!  I was also given them for bad colds a lot)

 

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Screwing up gut flora from antibiotics is much better than dying form an infection so I don't care if this is true or not.


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I looked at the sources. They're crap. Come back to me when you have a REAL study and viable information. Then we can discuss "gut flora" nonsense.

 

nono02.gif

 

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It is really hard to know whether or not whatever you are choosing to do is actually safe - or one of those things that we will go  "Really?!  ugh... I used that" in the future.   You cannot live your life in fear, still I tend to use medication on an as needed basis and do not turn to them quickly, given the history of western medicine.

 

Excellent point, this is how I tend to think as well!

 

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I don't think you need to despair or feel guilty after reading info like this. I think you just should file the info away and use it when you are making future decisions. If you took antibiotics for acne as a teen, obviously you can't do anything about that. But you can make a choice not to have your child take antibiotics for acne.

 

And I don't think everything is a lost cause. I believe ways will be found in the future to restore your natural bacterial flora. Like "fecal transplants", which sounds pretty gross but it does seem to be more effective than taking probiotics, etc.

 

 

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#25 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by lindberg99 View Post

I don't think you need to despair or feel guilty after reading info like this. I think you just should file the info away and use it when you are making future decisions. If you took antibiotics for acne as a teen, obviously you can't do anything about that. But you can make a choice not to have your child take antibiotics for acne.

 

And I don't think everything is a lost cause. I believe ways will be found in the future to restore your natural bacterial flora. Like "fecal transplants", which sounds pretty gross but it does seem to be more effective than taking probiotics, etc.

 

 


 

I agree with you. I too think that the body, given time (which many, in this time of instant gratification, aren't willing to allow) and the right help, can restore the lost bacteria. For me the right help would be a raw animal food diet, full of bacteria. Many people have found great success with eating high meat, which is small amounts of very rotten raw meat, crawling with so called "nasties"! My DH who's gut was devastated as child by antibiotics, and had terrible gut issues, has taken high meat without ever getting sick from it, only better. Recently, he had a major detox of penicillin though his skin which resulted in unbelievably itchy arms. He hung in there and is now itch and presumably penicillin free. thumb.gif

 


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#26 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 05:10 PM
 
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crawling with so called "nasties"! My DH who's gut was devastated as child by antibiotics, and had terrible gut issues, has taken high meat without ever getting sick from it, only better. Recently, he had a major detox of penicillin though his skin which resulted in unbelievably itchy arms. He hung in there and is now itch and presumably penicillin free. thumb.gif

  

 

 

Ew. Maybe it was the "nasties" crawling out of his skin rather than decades old remants of penicillin. BLECH. MDC needs a puking icon to detail just how gross and awful and bad for you this is.

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#27 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ew. Maybe it was the "nasties" crawling out of his skin rather than decades old remants of penicillin. BLECH. MDC needs a puking icon to detail just how gross and awful and bad for you this is.

 

Actually it isn't gross, well maybe, but it certainly isn't bad or awful for you. Quite the opposite, it can have very beneficial effects for both physical and emotional health. The Inuit know this and have eaten high meat for thousands of years. I always assume that MDC members are more open to alternatives than they really are. shake.gif

 

BTW, my DH hasn't eat high meat in a few years. The penicillin cleanse had absolutely nothing to do with that. But if there were nasties crawling out of his skin, he would be delighted, better out than in he would say. biglaugh.gif

 

 

 

 


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#28 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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I always assume that MDC members are more open to alternatives than they really are.  shake.gif

 

 

Well if being alternative means eating rotten meat and fish like the Inuit do then I am quite happy to wallow in my mainstream existence.

 

Besides, their eating habits and tolerances have developed on a completely different path than mine. I would no more recommend their diet to someone like me, then recommend my diet (which is low carb/high fat/meat based) to them.

 

 

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#29 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 07:57 PM
 
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Mirzam, I would like to thank you for talking about high meat. I've never even heard of it until you mentioned it, and I just spent the last hour learning about it. Fascinating and gross at the same time lol!

I'm a taxidermist, so I've seen my share of rotten meat! Rotten meat doesn't make me queasy, but the thought of eating it was new to me, and I admit, it did gross me out quite a bit! After reading more about high meat, and how it is common in certain cultures, it does not seem as bad. I'm interested in learning more, and who knows? If the health benefits are worth it, then maybe I'll give it a try. Just need to get past that ewww factor!


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#30 of 32 Old 09-05-2011, 10:12 PM
 
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Mirzam, I would like to thank you for talking about high meat. I've never even heard of it until you mentioned it, and I just spent the last hour learning about it. Fascinating and gross at the same time lol!

I'm a taxidermist, so I've seen my share of rotten meat! Rotten meat doesn't make me queasy, but the thought of eating it was new to me, and I admit, it did gross me out quite a bit! After reading more about high meat, and how it is common in certain cultures, it does not seem as bad. I'm interested in learning more, and who knows? If the health benefits are worth it, then maybe I'll give it a try. Just need to get past that ewww factor!



Yeah, it's probably better if you keep that ew factor. Rotten meat is not meant to be eaten. Period. "Antibiotic cleanse" or not. I don't consider that mainstream, I consider that common sense. There's a reason it's rotten. And what about the bacteria crawling all over it? That goes in your body.

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