Prophylactic antibiotics for my 11 mo who came in CLOSE contact with pertussis? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My husband and I are on the fence.  I am normally against antibiotics, as I feel they are over used.  However, my son, unvaccinated, played in close proximity with a boy who we later found out was diagnosed with pertussis... Our doc recommends prophylactic antibiotics but my chiropractor says why bother?  They do not work anyway.  I guess we are just very scared and would rather take the chance with antibiotics than take the chance that he develops pertussis.  He is still exclusively breastfed and I will also be giving him probiotics.  Are antibiotics really that bad in this case??  Thx

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#2 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 04:54 PM
 
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I'd be conflicted to, but would probably opt for the antibiotics as they are supposed to help limit transmission after exposure, and shorten the recommended quarantine duration.

 

I'd rather the antibiotics than the vaccine.


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#3 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 05:03 PM
 
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If I were in your position, I would not do the antibiotics. 


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#4 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If I were in your position, I would not do the antibiotics. 

What are your reasons?  I am just trying to get as much info as I can..... thanks :)

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#5 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 06:21 PM
 
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How about prophylactic sodium ascorbate? This would be health promoting overall, and would work against possible pertussis. Antibiotics are not health promoting. They would weaken the body overall.

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#6 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 06:54 PM
 
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If I were in your position, I would not do the antibiotics. 

What are your reasons?  I am just trying to get as much info as I can..... thanks :)

I don't think it is a good enough reason to completely trash an 11 months old gut. I also, personally, wouldn't do prophylactic vitamin C, I may do it if there are symptoms. 

 

Some information for you:

 

http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/_blog/Hilary%27s_Desk/post/Pertussis_MOH_changes_the_diagnosis_criteria_-_31_May,_2012/

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_immunity/

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_treatment/


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#7 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 07:14 PM
 
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Since this is about health and not vaxing, this belongs in H&H... I'll move it for you!! smile.gif

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R-E-S-P-E-C-T spells BRAND NEW User Agreement!!

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#8 of 34 Old 07-17-2012, 08:47 PM
 
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Was the other child just diagnosed with pertussis - or is this the later stages of the disease for the child?   Did they do proper tests to ensure it was pertussis?

 

Did your child play within about 5 feet of the child?

 

If the disease was in the later stage (less contagious) or your child was not within 5 feet of your child, I might wait to see if pertussis develops and then treat.

 

The above is according to what I read on google .  Please double check for yourself.

 

I am hesitant to give a child an antibiotic if they do not need it.

 

I would talk to a doctor and a naturopath (in my area naturopaths are well educated and provincially certified)

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#9 of 34 Old 07-18-2012, 12:50 AM
 
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Haha, um, no way would I trash my kids body with abx for this reason.  Like a PP said, it will overall weaken his body.  Not health promoting.  I would go for food based probiotics such a home made ferments, kefir, kombucha (I buy this, GT Daves brand), etc.  And I love Fermented Cod Liver Oil, Green Pastures Brand.  It has vitamin D to help his immune system too!  Btw, thumb.gif for not vaxxing!

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#10 of 34 Old 07-18-2012, 12:25 PM
 
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I've done a lot of research on pertussis because a friend of mine's daughter died from it. Babies under 1 year can't fight the bacteria very well, and they often end up suffocating because the bacteria release a toxin that swells their airways. Some babies only mildly suffocate (they'll turn blue for a few minutes from time to time) and will be OK; others will get brain damage; and others die. I would NOT take the chance of letting your son get pertussis, because it is extremely contagious, so he has likely been exposed to it. If you wait to treat with antibiotics, he will have more of a chance to infect you and the rest of your family (and believe me, you do NOT want pertussis; unless you recently got a Tdap vaccine you are vulnerable, because childhood vaccinations for pertussis don't last into adulthood. Parents who get it end up not sleeping for weeks). The other problem is that if you wait to use the antibiotics, they won't work as well because the toxin has already started doing its damage -- so your son will still be coughing for weeks even after the antibiotics are done. The reason your doc gave antibiotics prophylactically is because much of the country is experiencing a pertussis epidemic, so it's likely he will get sick -- and the best thing you can do for his health, your health and the health of other babies he might come into contact with is to give him the antibiotics now. 

 

Good luck!

 

Warmly,

Melinda

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#11 of 34 Old 07-18-2012, 05:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wennerc View Post

The reason your doc gave antibiotics prophylactically is because much of the country is

This sentence should be finished with "overusing antibiotics to an extreme degree causing antibiotic resistant bacteria, among other problems." lol.gif

And, considering the pertussis bacteria has mutated so the vaccine is no longer effective (if it ever was), this person obviously does not know what she's talking about.

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#12 of 34 Old 07-18-2012, 08:34 PM
 
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I've done a lot of research on pertussis because a friend of mine's daughter died from it. Babies under 1 year can't fight the bacteria very well, and they often end up suffocating because the bacteria release a toxin that swells their airways. 

I'm so sorry about your friend's daughter. How many months old was she, and in what state and year did she die?

 

In the 2010 California pertussis outbreak, all 10 babies who died were under 3 months old. 9 of those 10 were under 8 weeks old.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/10/20/california.whooping.cough/index.html

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#13 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 04:47 AM
 
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1love4ever, I totally agree that antibiotic overuse is a huge problem. But I think given her baby's almost certain exposure, they are warranted in this case. And I don't know where you got the information that the vaccine is completely ineffective. It is not 100%, but it still does provide some (80%) protection, at least for 3-5 years.

Ma2two, she was 12 weeks old and from Michigan. She died in May. She had already had at least one DTaP, though, so she did have some protection. Sixella1126's baby didn't have any vaccines, so I don't know whether he'll be able to fight it as well.

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#14 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 06:03 AM
 
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1love4ever, I totally agree that antibiotic overuse is a huge problem. But I think given her baby's almost certain exposure, they are warranted in this case. And I don't know where you got the information that the vaccine is completely ineffective. It is not 100%, but it still does provide some (80%) protection, at least for 3-5 years.

Ma2two, she was 12 weeks old and from Michigan. She died in May. She had already had at least one DTaP, though, so she did have some protection. Sixella1126's baby didn't have any vaccines, so I don't know whether he'll be able to fight it as well.

The pertussis part of the vaccine is 59-89% effective.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/pertussis-whooping-cough

 

I am very sorry about your friends daughter.  

 

If I were the Op, I would try to figure out:

1.  How likely it was my son would get pertussis(based on how they played together (many 11 months do not really play with other kids) how contagious the other child was (what stage of pertussis was it).  I get some of this is a guess.

 

2.  What does research say about the use ahead of time of antibiotics versus antibiotics at first sign of the disease?  Is there a significant difference in the severity of pertussis?  As number one is somewhat of an unknown, this factor has more weight for me.

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#15 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 08:01 AM
 
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Here's some information from the NIH on early treatment:

 

Treatment

If started early enough, antibiotics such as erythromycin can make the symptoms go away more quickly. Unfortunately, most patients are diagnosed too late, when antibiotics aren't very effective. However, the medicines can help reduce the patient's ability to spread the disease to others.

See http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001561.htm for more info.

The coughing symptoms of pertussis are mainly the result of the bacteria's release of pertussis toxin, which builds up over time during the infection. If treated early, and the bacteria are killed off early, there is less toxin released and milder symptoms. This is also why antibiotic treatment later doesn't actually improve symptoms; it kills off the bugs so the person is no longer contagious, but the person still coughs for weeks because the toxins have already damaged the lung's cilia. 

The other issue is that the earlier he gets treated, the fewer people he can infect. I imagine he will survive pertussis given his age, but there is always the risk, if he goes untreated, that he could infect newborns or pregnant women.

As for vaccine effectiveness: I think the 59% figure comes from 2-component acellular vaccines, whereas most used in the US are 3-component vaccines, which are more effective. See this systematic review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21249646

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#16 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 01:53 PM
 
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You all have very thoughtful and educated responses to this issue, which of course is filled with controversy. Antibiotics don't work so well in pertussis, vaccines don't work so well either. So the conventional medical approach definitely has shortcomings and limitations. For my patients I rely on holistic treatment and prevention of pertussis. In this situation I would give Pertussinum to the entire family as a preventive. It has been shown in preliminary studies to reduce the incidence and duration of pertussis when given prophylactically in epidemic situations. Giving an antibacterial such as liquid silver or elderberry would also be a good idea as well as vitamin A and 1,000 IU vitamin D.

If symptoms of pertussis should occur (antibiotics or not), then homeopathic and Chinese herbal treatment will manage them. See the article by Jake Fratkin on Pertussis   http://drjakefratkin.com/articles/the-treatment-of-pertussis-whooping-cough-with-chinese-herbal-medicine

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Sixela, in your case, I would do the abx.  I just do not have that much faith in sodium ascorbate, or in chiropractors - pertussis is way outside a chiro's area of expertise.  I've heard chiros argue otherwise.  I don't agree with them.

 

If your kid had a playdate with a child who has a confirmed diagnosis (or even a strong suspicion) of pertussis, I would not care whether the kids spent the entire time on opposite sides of the room.  Given the rate at which babies and young toddlers put things in their mouths, contact with the same environment is enough for me to think there's been exposure.

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#18 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by wennerc View Post

1love4ever, I totally agree that antibiotic overuse is a huge problem. But I think given her baby's almost certain exposure, they are warranted in this case. And I don't know where you got the information that the vaccine is completely ineffective. It is not 100%, but it still does provide some (80%) protection, at least for 3-5 years.

Ma2two, she was 12 weeks old and from Michigan. She died in May. She had already had at least one DTaP, though, so she did have some protection. Sixella1126's baby didn't have any vaccines, so I don't know whether he'll be able to fight it as well.

duh.gif  Do some research.... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/17/pertussis-vaccine-for-whooping-cough-effects.aspx   If 2 babies are sick with pertussis, one vaccinated, one not vaccinated, why would the vaccinated have a better chance at "fighting" it?  I would say that the vaccine was obviously ineffective, so they both have equal chances of fighting it. (not taking into account the fact that vaccines actually weaken the immune system and are not health promoting)

Very sorry about your friends baby btw, that is terrible.

Sorry, not trying to turn this into a vaccine fight, but it does bother me when people "preach" vaccines, when they have done 0 research themselves about them, or only looked at one side of the issue (pro-vax in this case) rolleyes.gif

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#19 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 05:40 PM
 
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1love4ever, it's unfair for you to accuse me of having done "0 research on vaccines" myself. I have done a lot of research on vaccines. I have a degree in cell and molecular biology and have interviewed 50+ researchers who study vaccines, on both sides of the issue. I read hundreds of peer-reviewed studies. Believe me, I have looked at both sides of the issue and for a while I was very skeptical of immunization. But now I have come to the conclusion that while vaccines are NOT 100% effective, they aren't all or nothing, either. Genes and epigenetics play a big role in whether a person responds to a vaccine or not. 

 

sixella1126, I hope that whatever your decide, your family stays healthy. 

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#20 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 05:41 PM
 
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Oh and I was also on the CDC teleconference today about pertussis (they just released new numbers on pertussis). For up-to-date info on the state of the epidemic, see

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6128a1.htm?s_cid=mm6128a1_w

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#21 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 06:09 PM
 
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Does anybody have any stats on whether breastfed babies are at as much risk from pertussis? I remember reading somewhere that all. The babies who died in California were formula-fed, but I don't remember where I saw it, nor did I see how that information was learned.

My understanding is also that healthy babies (with no underlying disorders) are at much lower risk of complications from pertussis.
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#22 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 06:26 PM
 
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I am someone who has done extensive research into this and does not believe there is a black and white answer for whether to get the vaccine AND who has watched her three children including a one year old and a newborn go through pertussis as well as having gone through it myself.

I'd get the antibiotics no question. There is a difference between taking precautions and making an informed decision about refusing the vaccine and knowing your baby was exposed and knowing there is an effective way to prevent them from getting sick which he is much more likely to do than a kid who only has a theoretical chance of being exposed.

Antibiotics are said to be ineffective because by the time you're coughing they are. It doesn't make sense to take antibiotics for cold symptoms which is how pertussis starts. OP you can kill the bacteria before lung damage occurs. Given that my well nourished, healthy, unvaccinated one year old who had the easiest time of the four of us still coughed for months to the point he'd throw up I would do antibiotics in a heartbeat to prevent that no question.

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#23 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 06:51 PM
 
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I am someone who has done extensive research into this and does not believe there is a black and white answer for whether to get the vaccine AND who has watched her three children including a one year old and a newborn go through pertussis as well as having gone through it myself.
I'd get the antibiotics no question. There is a difference between taking precautions and making an informed decision about refusing the vaccine and knowing your baby was exposed and knowing there is an effective way to prevent them from getting sick which he is much more likely to do than a kid who only has a theoretical chance of being exposed.
Antibiotics are said to be ineffective because by the time you're coughing they are. It doesn't make sense to take antibiotics for cold symptoms which is how pertussis starts. OP you can kill the bacteria before lung damage occurs. Given that my well nourished, healthy, unvaccinated one year old who had the easiest time of the four of us still coughed for months to the point he'd throw up I would do antibiotics in a heartbeat to prevent that no question.

Did you try sodium ascorbate to bowel tolerance?

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#24 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 07:02 PM
 
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Ma2two, she was 12 weeks old and from Michigan. She died in May. She had already had at least one DTaP, though, so she did have some protection. Sixella1126's baby didn't have any vaccines, so I don't know whether he'll be able to fight it as well.

Sixella1126's baby is 11 months. HUGE difference from 12 weeks in terms of pertussis.

 

What do you mean "fight it as well?" Since your friend's baby died, it seems that the DTaP vaccine she got gave her no protection.

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#25 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 07:07 PM
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I don't trust chiropractors to give advice on infectious diseases.  OP, if I were in that situation I would give the antibiotics.

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#26 of 34 Old 07-19-2012, 07:42 PM
 
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Does anybody have any stats on whether breastfed babies are at as much risk from pertussis? I remember reading somewhere that all. The babies who died in California were formula-fed, but I don't remember where I saw it, nor did I see how that information was learned.

My understanding is also that healthy babies (with no underlying disorders) are at much lower risk of complications from pertussis.

 

I don't have those stats, but an interesting observation, it appears antibodies might not equal immunity, from one of the links I posted above:

 

 

 

Quote:

However, efforts to prove that mothers could give their babies protection came unstuck because of the assumption that antibodies were what "constituted" protection, though the possibility that they were wrong about antibodies, was understood in February 1943 when Dr Cohen published the results of a study on mothers and babies.* Forty-nine years later in 2005, the problem had still not been resolved when Riestated:* (*link has pdf downloads of these studies)

 

 

 

Although there is a highly significant correlation between the level of vaccine-induced anti-PT IgG antibody in the serum and protection against pertussis, there is no definitive serologic correlate of protection for pertusiss. It is therefore difficult to determine the proportion of infants born with a protective level of maternal antibodies.

 

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_immunity/


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#27 of 34 Old 07-20-2012, 12:41 AM
 
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wennerc, I'd love to see the hundreds of peer reviewed studies on the effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine in infants that you say you've read.  About a year ago a friend of mine went to this big confrence, I cant remember what it was exactly, but they presented lots of into on health, and one of the topics they discussed was vaccines.  They concluded (and had lots of peer reviewed evidence to back it up) that no vaccine is effective before a child is 1 year old.  And, I'm guessing that you didnt bother to read the article that I posted, because you already know everything, right?eyesroll.gif

 

One unfortunate thing about the internet and anonymous accounts and such is that anyone can get on a forum such as this and pretend to be whoever they want to be, say they have done things and know things that they may or may not know, etc.  Especially when you have no previous posts to help verify your stories.  No offense, I've just seen a lot of new accounts created by people who have an adgenda to spread lies, confusion and doubt on this site.

 

Anyway, Taximom5 I would like to see that stat too, interesting.  It would not suprise me, breastfed babies tend to be healthier overall, with stronger immune systems and better able to fight off illness.  Most people know that breast fed babies are sick less often than formula fed, and its not that formula fed just happen to come into contact with way more viruses than do breast fed.  Bottle fed babies also have more issues with inflammation, which is not helpful if you have whooping cough to say the least :(

 

OP, how is your son doing?

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wennerc, I'd love to see the hundreds of peer reviewed studies on the effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine in infants that you say you've read.  About a year ago a friend of mine went to this big confrence, I cant remember what it was exactly, but they presented lots of into on health, and one of the topics they discussed was vaccines.  They concluded (and had lots of peer reviewed evidence to back it up) that no vaccine is effective before a child is 1 year old.  And, I'm guessing that you didnt bother to read the article that I posted, because you already know everything, right?eyesroll.gif

One unfortunate thing about the internet and anonymous accounts and such is that anyone can get on a forum such as this and pretend to be whoever they want to be, say they have done things and know things that they may or may not know, etc.  Especially when you have no previous posts to help verify your stories.  No offense, I've just seen a lot of new accounts created by people who have an adgenda to spread lies, confusion and doubt on this site.

Anyway, Taximom5 I would like to see that stat too, interesting.  It would not suprise me, breastfed babies tend to be healthier overall, with stronger immune systems and better able to fight off illness.  Most people know that breast fed babies are sick less often than formula fed, and its not that formula fed just happen to come into contact with way more viruses than do breast fed.  Bottle fed babies also have more issues with inflammation, which is not helpful if you have whooping cough to say the least greensad.gif

OP, how is your son doing?

Wow, I am just blown away by your rudeness. I don't care if wennerc is a yak herder in Mongolia rather than the microbiologist she claims to be. She provided peer reviewed studies and evidence for us to read. You provided a link to Mercola and the experience of a friend who attended "some conference" as evidence.

I am literally LMAO that you think your evidence trumps hers. Well, to each their own, I guess.
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#29 of 34 Old 07-20-2012, 04:09 PM
 
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Wow, I am just blown away by your rudeness. I don't care if wennerc is a yak herder in Mongolia rather than the microbiologist she claims to be. She provided peer reviewed studies and evidence for us to read. You provided a link to Mercola and the experience of a friend who attended "some conference" as evidence.
I am literally LMAO that you think your evidence trumps hers. Well, to each their own, I guess.

And you are so polite yourself eyesroll.gif   Did I ever say my evidance trumps hers?  Must I provide a link to every single fact I have ever read on the subject?  I thought that Mercola summarized a lot of the things I've read/know quite nicely, I'm not going to post a million links no one would ever read them all!  I was simply providing some info about the vaccine that she claimed was highly effective... boy I think you need to cool down a bit, taking it a bit seriously are we not? lol.gif

I dont think pointing out who is rude was part of the OP's question anyway, which is why I posted here in the first place, and would love to hear how her son is doing

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#30 of 34 Old 07-20-2012, 06:01 PM
 
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And you are so polite yourself eyesroll.gif    Did I ever say my evidance trumps hers?  Must I provide a link to every single fact I have ever read on the subject?  I thought that Mercola summarized a lot of the things I've read/know quite nicely, I'm not going to post a million links no one would ever read them all!  I was simply providing some info about the vaccine that she claimed was highly effective... boy I think you need to cool down a bit, taking it a bit seriously are we not? lol.gif
I dont think pointing out who is rude was part of the OP's question anyway, which is why I posted here in the first place, and would love to hear how her son is doing

Yeah, oddly enough, I take it seriously when we are talking about illness in children. Sorry to rain on your parade of laughter.
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