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#271 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 07:17 PM
 
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It was the pp's choice of terminolgy that really bothered me; "non-compliant" WTF? That doesn't imply respect toward someone who CHOOSES not to follow her recommendations, yk?

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#272 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by grisandole
It was the pp's choice of terminolgy that really bothered me; "non-compliant" WTF? That doesn't imply respect toward someone who CHOOSES not to follow her recommendations, yk?
Several doctors labeled me non-compliant. First, I went to get tested for STD's. They wanted to do a pap smear and swabs. I said No. I just want the blood and urine tests. They refused and asked me to leave. They then turned around and charged me with Medical Neglect for not letting them do the tests. Thankfully, I had found the P.A. mentioned in my pp, who let me get tested for STD's and they were all negative. Charges dismissed.
Then in 2002, I went to nurse my newborn baby. The doctor told me not to nurse. I asked why not? He said because I was putting her at risk for infection. I asked if I had an infection, he said no. So, I nursed my baby. He called CPS on me.
Another doctor wanted to put an I.V. in my baby and give her antibiotics. I refused. They again called CPS and threatened to charge me with medical neglect. I told them I had the right to ask that my baby be tested for infections first before consenting to give her antibiotics. They tested her and found her negative for infections. I was also tested and found negative for infections.

By labeling a patient non-compliant it gives the doctor and/or medical establishment the power and ability to charge the person with medical neglect.

Because of being labeled non-compliant, I constantly have to visit the doctors against my will or risk getting fined/penalized and/or losing my children.
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#273 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe someone else knows how being labeled "non-compliant" affects your ability to get life insurance, or if it affects the cost of getting medical insurance?
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#274 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:08 PM
 
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non-compliant?
WTF? I'll tell you wtf. It is a term used by the medical community. Nothing more, nothing less. Non-compliant = you came to me for care, I offered a treament plan, you refuse proffered treatment (to your or anothers' possible detriment), or, more particularly, you never show up again, or you fail to withold your part of the bargain in the treatment plan. You have the RIGHT to refuse/decline/be non-participatory/not care/be passive-aggressive, I have the RIGHT to call it something, for crying out loud. It goes both ways. It's a shame the term is grating, but it is the most succinct way of putting it.

Now, as for those who have declined care (myself included) - good for you if you feel good about your decision and your outcome was good. Sorry for you if it was the worst mistake you ever made. Specifics of certain instances are interesting, but I have to say, yes - there are certain times where the term "non-compliant" is the nicest thing you could say about folks who make the decision to refuse care to the grave detriment of themselves, but particularly others. (Like in the instance of a child who may truly suffer for the decision another may make on their behalf).
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#275 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Several doctors labeled me non-compliant. First, I went to get tested for STD's. They wanted to do a pap smear and swabs. I said No. I just want the blood and urine tests. They refused and asked me to leave. They then turned around and charged me with Medical Neglect for not letting them do the tests. Thankfully, I had found the P.A. mentioned in my pp, who let me get tested for STD's and they were all negative. Charges dismissed.
Then in 2002, I went to nurse my newborn baby. The doctor told me not to nurse. I asked why not? He said because I was putting her at risk for infection. I asked if I had an infection, he said no. So, I nursed my baby. He called CPS on me.
Another doctor wanted to put an I.V. in my baby and give her antibiotics. I refused. They again called CPS and threatened to charge me with medical neglect. I told them I had the right to ask that my baby be tested for infections first before consenting to give her antibiotics. They tested her and found her negative for infections. I was also tested and found negative for infections.

By labeling a patient non-compliant it gives the doctor and/or medical establishment the power and ability to charge the person with medical neglect.

Because of being labeled non-compliant, I constantly have to visit the doctors against my will or risk getting fined/penalized and/or losing my children.
MITB, I really want to understand your experience but I am flat out lost. It feels like you start with "Once upon a time" and end with "The End". Meaning... there's a whole story in here that I'm not getting. Look, I know BFing policy isn't what it should be in this country, but I'm just scratching my head that a doctor would want to test you for infection prior to nursing a baby - what is this story? Or that asking for an alternative (and if I'm to take your word for it in this thread, equally accurate, reliable, and available) test for STDs would cause the doctor to file a lawsuit against YOU. What's the long story there? Finally, I don't understand the third statement I bolded, where you say you are "labeled non-compliant" (with whom?) and required (by whom?) to see doctors (for what?) or else your children will be taken from you. Huh?

This all seems so vague... and yet... so alarming.
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#276 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dove
non-compliant?
WTF? I'll tell you wtf. It is a term used by the medical community. Nothing more, nothing less. Non-compliant = you came to me for care, I offered a treament plan, you refuse proffered treatment (to your or anothers' possible detriment), or, more particularly, you never show up again, or you fail to withold your part of the bargain in the treatment plan. You have the RIGHT to refuse/decline/be non-participatory/not care/be passive-aggressive, I have the RIGHT to call it something, for crying out loud. It goes both ways. It's a shame the term is grating, but it is the most succinct way of putting it.

Now, as for those who have declined care (myself included) - good for you if you feel good about your decision and your outcome was good. Sorry for you if it was the worst mistake you ever made. Specifics of certain instances are interesting, but I have to say, yes - there are certain times where the term "non-compliant" is the nicest thing you could say about folks who make the decision to refuse care to the grave detriment of themselves, but particularly others. (Like in the instance of a child who may truly suffer for the decision another may make on their behalf).
Is there a class that teaches doctors how to use scare tactics and threats?
Or is it just an individual defense mechanism, ie-I know better than you, so you be damned for not doing what I told you to do?
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#277 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dove
non-compliant?
WTF? I'll tell you wtf. It is a term used by the medical community. Nothing more, nothing less.
compliant
adj 1: disposed or willing to comply; "children compliant with the parental will" [ant: defiant] 2: willing to carry out the orders or wishes of another without protest; "too acquiescent to challenge authority"; "a gentle and biddable soul"; "children compliant with the parental will" [syn: acquiescent, biddable] 3: easily influenced or imposed on 4: evidencing little spirit or courage; overly submissive or compliant; "compliant and anxious to suit his opinions of those of others"; "a fine fiery blast against meek conformity"- Orville Prescott; "she looked meek but had the heart of a lion"; "was submissive and subservient"

noncompliant
adj : boldly resisting authority or an opposing force; "brought up to be aggressive and defiant"; "a defiant attitude" [syn: defiant] [ant: compliant] n : a person who refuses to comply

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You have the RIGHT to refuse/decline/be non-participatory/not care/be passive-aggressive, I have the RIGHT to call it something, for crying out loud. It goes both ways. It's a shame the term is grating, but it is the most succinct way of putting it.
How about "against medical advice"?

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#278 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:26 PM
 
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I think the term 'decline' is replacing the word 'refuse' in many provider's vocabularies. It doesn't have any different meaning, but it's a nice change, I think.
I also like 'client' better than 'patient'.

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#279 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Apricot
I think the term 'decline' is replacing the word 'refuse' in many provider's vocabularies. It doesn't have any different meaning, but it's a nice change, I think.
I also like 'client' better than 'patient'.
Those are changes I could live with!

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#280 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Is there a class that teaches doctors how to use scare tactics and threats?
Or is it just an individual defense mechanism, ie-I know better than you, so you be damned for not doing what I told you to do?

No, but there is a disease called "a little information in the wrong hands can be dangerous to your health" (or the health of those around you).

OOH, see now I was trying to play nice... :

See ya 'round. Maybe someday I will be pleasantly asking you to sign the refused/discharged against medical advice form!!! I promise I won't threaten you or use a scare tactic - in fact, I will have a smile on my face! (I'm sure some of you kwim...).

BUH-bye
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#281 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Those are changes I could live with!
Lol....but, there's something satisfying about yelling "Listen to me! I REFUSE...get it?" when you're being bullied into something you don't want to "comply" with.
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#282 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay
Lol....but, there's something satisfying about yelling "Listen to me! I REFUSE...get it?" when you're being bullied into something you don't want to "comply" with.
I know! My big concern is that words definitely have power. If something goes to court, and someone is labeled as "non-compliant" I suspect the connotations are very negative.

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#283 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I know! My big concern is that words definitely have power. If something goes to court, and someone is labeled as "non-compliant" I suspect the connotations are very negative.
Oh yeah...I definitely know...I've signed a few "against medical advice" stuff for myself. No big deal there. I don't regret any of it. I actually take a great deal of pride in the fact that I was able to stand up for myself, use my better judgement, and get out.
But it's really sad that my insticts are so compromised when my child is involved. That's when my insticts are the strongest, but that's also when I'm really under the "medical advice" microscope, so to speak, iykwim.
It's so depressing and paradoxical.
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#284 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mamakay
Oh yeah...I definitely know...I've signed a few "against medical advice" stuff for myself.
Legally, you do not have to sign those releases. In fact it is better not to sign, because it is easier for them to charge you with medical neglect, especially when it comes to your children.
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#285 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 11:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Legally, you do not have to sign those releases. In fact it is better not to sign, because it is easier for them to charge you with medical neglect, especially when it comes to your children.
Huh...I've never really even thought about it like that. I've never actually been faced with the situation with my son (we see a very cool, mellow GP for everything), but I've gone over a lot of "what if" situations in my mind. I always kinda thought once you were at the hospital, you were their prisoner till you signed the form.
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#286 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mamakay
Huh...I've never really even thought about it like that. I've never actually been faced with the situation with my son (we see a very cool, mellow GP for everything), but I've gone over a lot of "what if" situations in my mind. I always kinda thought once you were at the hospital, you were their prisoner till you signed the form.
Yeah. I found out the hard way. In the hospital recovering from an unwanted c-section, they kept trying to take my baby and wanted me to sign all sorts of forms. Thankfully, that time I had my mom with me who was able to call a lawyer from my hospital room. The lawyer advised me not to sign any forms and to continue to verbally refuse. I kept trying to transfer out of the hospital, but no other hospitals would take me because of liability or some sh!t like that. Really sucked. Six days of living hell. The nurses not bringing me pain medication, refusing to answer the call light, the only way I was able to get pain medication was when my BIL finally got there. Great big black man. He walked down the hall and demanded pain medication for me. The nurse handed him the medication! Totally against hospital policy!
Anyways the whole thing was a friggin' nightmare. Once I escaped, I had my mom drive me three hours to the city so I could get my surgery checked and get a prescription for pain medication.

Yes, I talked to so many lawyers, but since my baby nor I died and there was no money to be made, the lawyers all declined to take my case. :
I have all my medical records from that birth. Including the nurses notes, doctor's notes, and even some other patients records about their baby boy being circumcised. The first time I read "circumcision" I just about flipped! I ran and checked my baby, and then brought her to the doctor's because I wanted to know just how they circumcised her. Thankfully, the doctor read the medical record and pointed out that it was not my record.
At the time I had no idea I could file a complaint with the Medical Board or any other place. It has only been recently, since my other thread, that I knew about any of that.
Yes, I am working on filing a complaint as i still have all the records, including the other little boy's record.
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#287 of 302 Old 08-29-2005, 11:43 PM
 
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MITB~
What in the heck kinda hospital was this??????
Seriously, I am so not getting how these things occurred. Is this the same place where the doctor called CPS on you for nursing your baby?
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#288 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by archaeomom
MITB~
What in the heck kinda hospital was this??????
Seriously, I am so not getting how these things occurred. Is this the same place where the doctor called CPS on you for nursing your baby?
Yes, this was same hospital. I am not sure if I am allowed to divulge the name of the hospital?

It was a living hell type of hospital. They advertise as being natural birth friendly, offer two water tubs for waterbirths, etc. It was all false. They have the highest rate of cesareans. I wonder why?
This was the same hospital that after the 24 hour mark, on the dot! they knocked me out and gave me a cesarean against my will. They wrote in their notes "non-compliant" and that is what they used so I couldn't sue them.
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#289 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:02 AM
 
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dove- I know just exactly what you mean. I suppose we need to demure to the 'non-participatory (?) clients' every whim and wish when they 'decline' our dangerous, uninformed, irresponsible, bullying advice. We are such a bunch of complete and utter heartless morons. I suppose it's time to put away my stalking gear for good. It's really time that we just go ahead and face the facts. However, you and Periwinkle have just placed yourselves on my 'very favorite people at MDC list.'

Creepily yours,

Laura
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#290 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by supakitty
dove- I know just exactly what you mean. I suppose we need to demure to the 'non-participatory (?) clients' every whim and wish when they 'decline' our dangerous, uninformed, irresponsible, bullying advice. We are such a bunch of complete and utter heartless morons. I suppose it's time to put away my stalking gear for good. It's really time that we just go ahead and face the facts. However, you and Periwinkle have just placed yourselves on my 'very favorite people at MDC list.'

Creepily yours,

Laura
What a sarcastic post.

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Yes my post is sarcastic, no more so than what was directed at me in this thread. It is clear to me that I am not wanted in this community. I am constantly reminded that I am not welcome and that I have nothing of any value to add as a mainstream healthcare practioner. Every single day at MDC very negative and hurtful comments are made regarding people in my profession. After awhile it really deeply bothers a person. If it is MDC's intent to drive away all educated mainstream physicians and healthcare practitioners with negativity and disparaging remarks, it is working.

I will no longer contribute to this thread.

-Laura

edit:typo
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#292 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by supakitty
Yes my post is sarcastic, no more so than what was directed at me in this thread. It is clear to me that I am not wanted in this community. I am constantly reminded that I am not welcome and that I have nothing of any value to add as a mainstream healthcare practioner. Every single day at MDC very negative and hurtful comments are made regarding people in my profession. After awhile it really deeply bothers a person. If it is MDC's intent to drive away all educated mainstream physicians and healthcare practioners with negativity and disparaging remarks, it is working.

I will no longer contribute to this thread.

-Laura
It must be very difficult to deal with when you are used to people "complying" with your orders.

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#293 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:25 AM
 
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Yes my post is sarcastic, no more so than what was directed at me in this thread. It is clear to me that I am not wanted in this community. I am constantly reminded that I am not welcome and that I have nothing of any value to add as a mainstream healthcare practioner. Every single day at MDC very negative and hurtful comments are made regarding people in my profession. After awhile it really deeply bothers a person. If it is MDC's intent to drive away all educated mainstream physicians and healthcare practioners with negativity and disparaging remarks, it is working.

I will no longer contribute to this thread.

-Laura
unfortunately, many women have negative experiences with mainstream healthcare practioners and also receive negative and hurtful comments too. for myself, personally, i really didn't care less what was being said to me because i knew what was true for me and having doctors share their nasty opinions with me was fine.

i do appreciate doctors for much of their lifesaving knowledge, but they too need to take responsibility for their negative image instead of passing the buck to the patient and making it our fault for their image.

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#294 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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i do appreciate doctors for much of their lifesaving knowledge, but they too need to take responsibility for their negative image instead of passing the buck to the patient and making it our fault for their image.
Additionally, they need to recognize that they are agents for hire, and not demigods or authorities. In the end, I am responsible for my health and the health of my children.

ETA: They are authorities in that they have specialized knowledge. They are not authorities that must be obeyed.

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#295 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 12:29 AM
 
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Additionally, they need to recognize that they are agents for hire, and not demigods or authorities. In the end, I am responsible for my health and the health of my children.
yep, i was going to add that because they are doctors does NOT make them god and they can keep their nasty opinions to themselves. yes, respectful discussions and dialogue regarding my health care are cool and empowering, blasting me for the well-educated choices i have made regarding MY health and those of my children can be kept to themselves.

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#296 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 11:25 AM
 
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Well I guess like any profession, there are good doctors and there are not. Doctors will have very different philosophies, so we are lucky that there are so many out there to choose from. I am speaking from experience, I left my ob/gyn's office 6 months pregnant, crying because I was convinced she was going to give me a c-section. She told me women were lucky that so many up and coming female ob-gyn's understand all the benefits to c-sections. How birthing a baby vaginally can lead to a lifetime of bladder problems. I literally went back to work crying. The reason I didn't know this prior was because I almost always saw the NP, who I really liked. The doctor's mission statement in her pamphlet sounded just hunky-dorey. Statements like "we believe all woman need to choose their own path and we are just here to assist" (the practice was called Pathways).
So with the encouragement of the wonderful leader of the local doula organization,who I am still thankful for today, I checked out several more doctors and found one who was willing to work with me. We had long conversations about unnecessary interventions. He too was saddened at the c-section rate, he told me he was afraid that by the time he retired it would be at 50%.
When I went into the hospital in hard labor, I had the most wonderful nurse. She was actually better than my doula at helping me with pain management. She told me she had complete respect for what I was trying to acheive (NCB). In the morning I asked to see her before her shift ended, and gave her a big hug. I know I was lucky, I was already told there were nurses at that hospital who were not respectful of NCB. One doula I met was in the process of filing a complaint against one of them.
Of course, while I was in the hospital I had to deal with other issues. I had a nurse talk to me like I was some kind of idiot because I didn't want ds to have a pacifier. I had a nurse try real hard to convince me to let her take ds to the nursery so I could get some sleep. But I also had a great lactation consultant come visit me, who I still have a relationship with today.

So I guess my point is, I will hold on to the belief that there are many dr's and nurses out there who truly want to help women, we just have to work hard to find them. I fully realize that women need to take control of their health care, question doctor's when we dont' feel it's right, and take the time to find care we are comfortable with. It's not always easy, and I was lucky that I had a doula who reminded me that I was in charge of this show, that it was not too late to change doctors, that it is MY body and MY baby.

MITB, I do agree with you on the point that sometimes we have to fight to be heard. But I personally don't want to believe that the entire medical industry is bad and eschew tests such as PAP that could perhaps save my life.
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#297 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 11:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dove
There seems to be too many hurtful generalizations made on these boards about practitioners, particularly "mainstream" practitioners.
Dove, Supakitty, and any others this may apply to - I for one am very glad to see some healthcare practitioners, including mainstream and MDs, who are supportive of AP and enjoying its benefits in your own lives and participating at MDC. So many AP moms have had such overwhelmingly negative experiences with the mainstream medical community, and are really angry about the way many things are normally done by practitioners, and we have a right to be and to fight it. But this makes me all the more appreciative when I find a healthcare provider who is respectful of me, who is open-minded, who will listen when I explain my perspective on something, and finding a doctor in favor of AP practices would be a dream come true for me, so I'm thrilled to see some here. I don't assume that all mainstream doctors are the same and automatically blame any doctor for the bad experiences I have had. I'm really glad there are some doctors and nurses and other hc providers interested in AP and discussing things with parents here.

Linda B

DS1 March 2003DS2 Sept 2005,
and 3 , in our happy secular
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#298 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by archaeomom
So I guess my point is, I will hold on to the belief that there are many dr's and nurses out there who truly want to help women, we just have to work hard to find them.
This is what gets me angry. Why should we have to work hard to find a decent practitioner? Why are we so submissive when it comes to the medical industry?

Should we start with the medical schools that continue to teach outdated methodologies?
While demanding hospitals and clinics to seek out safer, less invasive testing methods?

Maybe I should post in Activism...
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#299 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 02:10 PM
 
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I think that you have to work hard to find someone that fits your needs for anything! Lawyers, couselors, teachers, clerics, grocery stores, cars, anything.

I agree that lots can change in the medical industry but that doesn't change our personal responsibility.

I hope that the *mainstream* practioners here will not leave. We need people on the inside working toward more sane medical practices too. It will not change from the outside only. In a revolution, it never does.

Victorian
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#300 of 302 Old 08-30-2005, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
This is what gets me angry. Why should we have to work hard to find a decent practitioner? Why are we so submissive when it comes to the medical industry?
Ok, let me rephrase. What I mean is, if it is important to me that my practitioner is on board with most of my ideas and wishes, then yes, it will take some work on my behalf to find them. I don't necessarily believe that all practitioners out there should be of the same mind-set as me.

Let's say you want to hire someone for childcare, you would WORK HARD to make sure you are bringing someone on who will respect and abide by your wishes.

Just because a practitioner wants to utilize certain tests that are available, does not mean that they are not decent. KWIM?

Listen, I am not personally trying to stand up for the entire medical community. Maybe the scope of this thread is just too broad for me to properly articulate my feelings.

I still think PAPs are good.
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