Sodium Ascorbate - Page 17 - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-11-2009, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Why was MT banned?
I think it had to do with some of the info she posted about vaccines. But I think we're not even supposed to discuss why people are banned.

As far as oxalates, it is true that large amounts of ascorbate can convert into oxalates, and this is more of a problem if you have yeast issues. There are types of probiotics that consume oxalates, and if your gut is off, there may not be enough of them to consume any dietary oxalates.
See:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm
"Some ascorbic acid is metabolised to inactive compounds including
ascorbic acid-2-sulfate and oxalic acid (McEvoy, 1993;
Dollery, 1991)."
and:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11156698
But then:
http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...rbate-lies.htm
and:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/resour...s/v01n07.shtml
?

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Old 01-11-2009, 10:21 PM
 
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Oh ok, thanks for replying. When people say about "bowel tolerance", what's the symptom of this, diarhea?
Yes or lots of gas. Basically if your body is not absorbing the C, it dumps into intestines and boy it can "clean you out"! The key is to take as much at a time in the amount that gradually allows your body to absorb it all. The digestive system is definately self limiting, so that is why if you are facing a serious illness, the IV form is so powerful. The buffered form of SA absorbs more easily than the acidic form, ascorbic acid.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:12 PM
 
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Yes or lots of gas.
I thought you wrote "Yes for lots of gas." in response to the query about MT.


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Old 01-12-2009, 01:28 AM
 
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Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?

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Old 01-12-2009, 04:31 PM
 
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Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?
Oh my, I am so confused on this...I just ordered a replacement bottle of SA, we flew through it since we have all been sick recently...now I'm wondering if I made the wrong choice. Would someone please shed some light on this subject???? Thank you!
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:10 PM
 
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I think the question is: can you possibly consume enough vitamin C for the contemporary pathogen and toxin load through whole food sources? I tend towards "no" for a couple of reasons.

One - I live in the northern part of north America, and even with eating only organic foods, most of which I grow myself, buy locally, or buy in bulk through certified sources, drinking lots of non-fluoridated, non-chlorinated water, and really making an effort to get everything I need, I still notice a HUGE difference if I do or don't get supplemental C, especially in the winter.

Second - Humans appear to be the ONLY species that doesn't recognize that we need C when we are deficient. The early doctors who studied scurvy in sailors noted this. One reason for this may be that we have the gene for synthesizing C, but it isn't turned on. Since it doesn't take much C to keep from getting scurvy, humans have managed to perpetuate this genetic anomaly. I tend to wonder if it isn't a deficiency that can be traced to the divergence of the homonid species.

So, anyway, people have survived for a really long time without a lot of C, and we have adapted pretty well. But the ease with which pathogens can move all over the globe now, as well as the tremendous load of organic and synthetic toxins that have been added to our food and immediate and general environment, can easily outstrip our evolutionary defenses. Furthermore, the sophisticated application of the division of labor has led to a situation where we produce huge amounts of goods and services, but our individual lives (generally speaking) are physically and intellectually specialized, which seems to result in high levels of prolonged stress. These increases in stress response seem to make us more susceptible to disease as well.

So, that's some of the reason why supplemental C makes sense to me.

Now, that said, oxalate toxicity in some folks seems to be a poorly-understood phenomenon that carries great risk for certain individuals. At least, I am having a lot of trouble finding any conclusive research on it, although there is a lot of research showing that it IS a problem for some folks. I think it is fair to say that vitamin C therapy is very low risk, but it is clearly not NO risk.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by aris99 View Post
Can I ask a stupid ?? I recently read somewhere that consuming a lot of synthetic vit c can actually cause anemia and that it's best to consume "whole" foods vit c because it is more easily absorbed. So why does anyone use sodium ascorbate? Even if they were trying to recover from illness wouldn't it be better to take large doses of vit c from acerola? Is expense the reason people choose to go w/sodium ascorbate?

is this what you're talking about? https://www.drbenkim.com/sunshop/ind...ct_detail&p=48
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:29 AM
 
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so that whole post, and you were just asking about SA versus acerola - I feel silly How do the ratios compare?
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:35 AM
 
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Not that in particular but one like that. I had been taking SA on a daily basis and giving it to my kids...I am really paranoid about deficiencies because my son has severe food aversions and when he was about 2.5 yo he started having pain when walking and other symptoms and nobody would listen to me when I said there was something wrong w/him. He was being seen by therapists, peds etc etc and nobody else saw that there was anything wrong until he ended up in the ER w/scurvy! After months of experimenting I was able to come up w/a homemade nutritional drink that he would drink....the hospital had told me he'd need a feeding tube.

After reading a thread here about SA I started giving it to my kids...1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day. But now I'm not sure that this is the best thing for them. So I bought a bottle of healthforce vegan vit c powder but it's SO expensive!!!!

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Old 01-13-2009, 01:45 AM
 
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so that whole post, and you were just asking about SA versus acerola - I feel silly How do the ratios compare?
Wallacesmum...thank-you for your reply anyway...it had a lot of info that I hadn't considered before! As for ratios, we were taking source naturals SA 1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day and are now taking something like 270mg of acerola powder vit c. Seems adequate...supposed to be more easily absorbed? My youngest dd (born a micro...only 25lbs at 3 yo) seems to have digestive probs so I dropped back to about 1/8 teas. SA. She seems to tolerate the acerola better but then it's at a much lower dose.

If someone happened to be a millionaire and had the choice of vit c's and suddenly got very sick would it be better for them to take acerola powder in greater volume to equal the vit c of SA or is there a reason why acerola would still not be the vit c of choice?

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Old 01-13-2009, 12:23 PM
 
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Wallacesmum...thank-you for your reply anyway...it had a lot of info that I hadn't considered before! As for ratios, we were taking source naturals SA 1/4-1/2 teaspoon a day and are now taking something like 270mg of acerola powder vit c. Seems adequate...supposed to be more easily absorbed? My youngest dd (born a micro...only 25lbs at 3 yo) seems to have digestive probs so I dropped back to about 1/8 teas. SA. She seems to tolerate the acerola better but then it's at a much lower dose.

If someone happened to be a millionaire and had the choice of vit c's and suddenly got very sick would it be better for them to take acerola powder in greater volume to equal the vit c of SA or is there a reason why acerola would still not be the vit c of choice?
I don't know, but I remember JaneS saying at one point that you couldn't take acerola in the higher doses that you can do with SA. I don't know if I am just making that up, because I can't remember where now. But I do remember that she said her ds also couldn't tolerate the SA because of his digestive issues, and that's why they did the acerola (NOW brand I think).
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
I think the question is: can you possibly consume enough vitamin C for the contemporary pathogen and toxin load through whole food sources? I tend towards "no" for a couple of reasons.

One - I live in the northern part of north America, and even with eating only organic foods, most of which I grow myself, buy locally, or buy in bulk through certified sources, drinking lots of non-fluoridated, non-chlorinated water, and really making an effort to get everything I need, I still notice a HUGE difference if I do or don't get supplemental C, especially in the winter.

Second - Humans appear to be the ONLY species that doesn't recognize that we need C when we are deficient. The early doctors who studied scurvy in sailors noted this. One reason for this may be that we have the gene for synthesizing C, but it isn't turned on. Since it doesn't take much C to keep from getting scurvy, humans have managed to perpetuate this genetic anomaly. I tend to wonder if it isn't a deficiency that can be traced to the divergence of the homonid species.

So, anyway, people have survived for a really long time without a lot of C, and we have adapted pretty well. But the ease with which pathogens can move all over the globe now, as well as the tremendous load of organic and synthetic toxins that have been added to our food and immediate and general environment, can easily outstrip our evolutionary defenses. Furthermore, the sophisticated application of the division of labor has led to a situation where we produce huge amounts of goods and services, but our individual lives (generally speaking) are physically and intellectually specialized, which seems to result in high levels of prolonged stress. These increases in stress response seem to make us more susceptible to disease as well.

So, that's some of the reason why supplemental C makes sense to me.

Now, that said, oxalate toxicity in some folks seems to be a poorly-understood phenomenon that carries great risk for certain individuals. At least, I am having a lot of trouble finding any conclusive research on it, although there is a lot of research showing that it IS a problem for some folks. I think it is fair to say that vitamin C therapy is very low risk, but it is clearly not NO risk.

Great post, thank you!!

But, so is there a way to know if you have or are starting to get oxalate toxicity?
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:30 PM
 
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Hmm, well I just went and read the info on the acerola cherry powder Vit C at Dr Ben Kim's website, and it sounds like you can take that in high doses. He says: "Another important feature of this product is that you can take much more than the recommended serving size of 1.5 teaspoon if your situation requires it. Because it is made from real food - acerola cherries - and doesn't contain any synthetic nutrients, you can take as much as you need without any fear of toxicity."

So, I wonder if the oxalate sensitivity/toxicity thing could be related to taking synthetic Vitamin C? I wonder if it would be a problem with the acerola, as he recommends. It would be interesting to email him about that and ask what he thinks.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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I think JaneS's experience with SA vs acerola was that her bowel tolerance was lower with the acerola, that's what she meant by not being able to take as much--but she felt the higher dose she could take with SA was important for her for the toxic load issues that wallacesmum posted so clearly about.

The kids and I have had good results lowering our toxic loads using SA (and other supps, but the SA has been a very significant part of what we're doing) but we haven't tried acerola or the other food-based vitamin C's. At this point, since it's been more than a year, I think we're not prone to oxalate problems, but I don't know how one would figure that out beforehand.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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I believe it is Ex Libris on this thread who has oxalate problems. She might have more info about early signs of toxicity.
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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Wow, that took 2.5 hours to read. Whew. So during the reading, I bought some Nutribiotic corn-free SA in powder form. I would like to use it for the whole family. DH has been using Ester-C, but after he's finished with that (big) bottle, I'll have him switch too.

Family:
me: no dairy, soy, gluten. probably yeast problems. generally healthy.
DH: 200 lbs., just found out he had a hole in his heart (ASD), allergy-induced asthma, on 3 daily prescriptions for it. From my reading, it sounds like this could help his allergies? maybe he could decrease his prescriptions after a while?
DD1: 80 lbs. 11 yo, no food issues, no yeast, but she does have allergies (dust, cats). Again, it should be good even for her because of the allergies? She actually has a lot of citrus (lemon, grapefruit, orange juice).
DS: 60 lbs, 8yo. Intolerant: orange (highly), chicken, turkey, gluten, lemon, lime, dairy (highly), soy, potato, and a host of others. So far all the Vitamin C I'd seen had some form of citrus in it. But I ordered the Nutribiotic because it seemed safe for him. Do I need to worry about the oxalate thing for him?
DD2: 35 lbs., 3yo, intolerant to beef, dairy, gluten, soy, corn (highly), and numerous other things (including most citrus). As far as I can tell she doesn't have any yeast issues.

No one is sick right now, so I just do the maintenance dose of 50mg/kg of body weight for kids and 100mg/kg body weight for adults that MT said? Or am I supposed to figure out the bowel tolerance thing instead? Or is that only when someone is sick?

I'm sure with all the food restrictions, we all need the Vitamin C. And I'm trying to make good choices on supplements when we do need them.

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Old 01-13-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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The way I figure my dosage is roughly bowel tolerance. I would only dose to tolerance if I were ill, but I find that I can determine my general need for supplemental C by my bowel movements (isn't this a lovely conversation?). So, I have a sense of the consistency that they should be, and, as long as I am getting plenty of whole fiber, I add or up my C if they are not. I tend to get constipated right before and during my period, and that also seems to be a time when I need more C.
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Old 01-30-2009, 05:21 PM
 
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My five year old weighs 40 pounds which is roughly 20 kg.

20 kg *50 mg/kg = 1000 mg = 1g

Hmm that would be a lot for me on a healthy day. Maybe if I spread it out through out the day, I could tolerate it, but my son seems to do well on 500mg or more when sick. I would start slow, b/c you don't want to have so much diarrhea that becomes a problem.

SA helps me with my allergies. I only take it when sick or when my allergies are bothering me. I would make sure it doesn't interfere with any of his medications. Also Vit C can interfere with anestesia so stop it at least 24 hours before surgery.

I don't know about the oxalate thing. Occasionally when sick I think it is fine. For my allergies and autoimmune problems, it seems worth the risk right now.

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Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post
Wow, that took 2.5 hours to read. Whew. So during the reading, I bought some Nutribiotic corn-free SA in powder form. I would like to use it for the whole family. DH has been using Ester-C, but after he's finished with that (big) bottle, I'll have him switch too.

Family:
me: no dairy, soy, gluten. probably yeast problems. generally healthy.
DH: 200 lbs., just found out he had a hole in his heart (ASD), allergy-induced asthma, on 3 daily prescriptions for it. From my reading, it sounds like this could help his allergies? maybe he could decrease his prescriptions after a while?
DD1: 80 lbs. 11 yo, no food issues, no yeast, but she does have allergies (dust, cats). Again, it should be good even for her because of the allergies? She actually has a lot of citrus (lemon, grapefruit, orange juice).
DS: 60 lbs, 8yo. Intolerant: orange (highly), chicken, turkey, gluten, lemon, lime, dairy (highly), soy, potato, and a host of others. So far all the Vitamin C I'd seen had some form of citrus in it. But I ordered the Nutribiotic because it seemed safe for him. Do I need to worry about the oxalate thing for him?
DD2: 35 lbs., 3yo, intolerant to beef, dairy, gluten, soy, corn (highly), and numerous other things (including most citrus). As far as I can tell she doesn't have any yeast issues.

No one is sick right now, so I just do the maintenance dose of 50mg/kg of body weight for kids and 100mg/kg body weight for adults that MT said? Or am I supposed to figure out the bowel tolerance thing instead? Or is that only when someone is sick?

I'm sure with all the food restrictions, we all need the Vitamin C. And I'm trying to make good choices on supplements when we do need them.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:19 PM
 
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Can anyone tell me if sodium ascorbate is better in powder form than in tablet form, or does it make no difference? i found both powder and tablets online and i dont know which to buy. THANKS!

DS 5-11-06
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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I use powder/crystals because I mix mine with a smoothie or in a small glass of water/juice. It's also easier to hide if I need to dose-up any of the boys when they are sick.

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Old 02-05-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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Hello,
I just wanted to let everyone know of my experience regarding high dose Vitamin C. I've been taking anywhere from 4-15 mg a day of sodium ascorbate for the last 3 years, depending on need. This last year I began having problems with my hands--they would get red and swollen throughout the day. I saw several doctors, none of whom could diagnose the problem.

Turns out that I have developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys).

I found this out because my ASD son has a problem with oxalates, too, and when reading around on the oxalate yahoo group, red hands were mentioned as one (of many) symptoms. I now have to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage my body to dump the excess oxalates. Not fun.

I'm not saying this could happen to everyone; I just wanted to share my experience in case it might apply to others.

Kelly
Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.

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Old 02-11-2009, 10:48 PM
 
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Ok....this scares me. I was reading through this thread and was totally convinced I was going to start my 7 month old baby on daily C regime until I read this.
This should be taken seriously. If anyone wants to learn about vitamin C and it's conversion to oxalates should subscribe to the Yahoo group Trying Low Oxalates or check out the website (for an overview): http://lowoxalate.info/index.html The moderator/owner is Susan Owens, and she is one of the world's most knowledgeable people on oxalates (she almost died as a result of them years ago and has been studying oxalates and sulfur chemistry ever since). She's got several graduate degrees in the sciences and works in conjunction with the Autism Research Group to study the effects of the low oxalate diet for kids on the spectrum, as well as others with chronic health problems (such as fibromyalgia, CF, and crohns). She backs up everything she says with medical studies--you'll see a long list of pub med references after almost every post she makes. She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:21 PM
 
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Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:06 AM
 
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She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).

The signs of oxalate problems vary somewhat by individual because oxalates tend to accumulate in areas of prior injuries. So if you have pains in those places since being on vitamin C, it's might be the oxalates. Also, it can get into bones, joints, and nerves, so you might experience pain in those areas. Also, these tend to be somewhat universal symptoms--frequent or urgent or painful urination (especially frequent), and red hands. Some also experience digestive disturbances, sleep problems, pain in the vulvar area (called vulvodinya), and brain fog. Plus a whole host of other things.

But as Susan has said, there is no test for oxalates. The only way to tell if you have a problem with oxalates is to go on the low oxalate diet (including stopping the vitamin C) for about 2 weeks. If you feel better at first and then feel worse, you have a problem. In other words, you stop the oxalate intake (which makes you feel better), which then causes the body to start dumping stored oxalates (which then makes you feel worse). If you experience no change, you're fine.

I wish I had known this a long time ago.

Kelly
So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?

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Ex Libris....that is scary. I'm so sorry you had to go through that! I'm wondering though....why does she not like the standard urine test for oxalates? It is run by pretty mainstream labs. Just curious. It's used by many doctors who specialize in environmental medicine as well as autism.
Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:36 AM
 
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So, once you stop the C and go on a low-oxalate diet, the symptoms can reverse?
Yes, the damage can be reversed over time as you dump stored oxalates from tissues.


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Is this a test you can take to see if you are someone who is sensitive to this and might want to use the C with caution?
A urinary oxalate test can only tell you what your body is excreting, not what is stored in your tissues. In fact, a low oxalate output via urine (which might make you think you don't have an oxalate problem) is more likely to mean you are not a good excreter. I had an organic acid test which tests for oxalates and my number came back low, even though I have stored a huge amount from the sodium ascorbate.

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Old 02-12-2009, 11:18 AM
 
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Kelly,
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't yet gotten around to researching the test, but assumed it was something of that nature. I appreciate it!
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:54 PM
 
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She has studied the vitamin C issue extensively, and it is a concern in the quantities suggested on this forum, especially for those with yeast, leaky gut, or people who have taken antibiotics recently or used them heavily in the past (the antibiotics kill of the friendly bacteria that degrade oxalates).
I wonder if this is an issue when vit C is taken in conjunction with "good bacteria", whole food probiotics which recolonize the gut. To me, it still seems to ignore the root solution. Avoiding something healthy, such as vit C, or nutrient dense foods which happen to be high in oxylates doesn't seem to address the *reason* these become issues for an individual body.

Our SAD is so sterilized of the native microbials and nutrient density that traditional diets consumed. I believe that is where the "problem" originates.

(Yes, and throw in over use of antibiotics in our health care system and our food system, of course.)


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Old 02-12-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:08 PM
 
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Pat, this is yet another detox pathways issue. When the paths are narrowed oxalates are allowed to build up. That is why people with oxalate issue can't often tolerate an epsom salt soak. It doesnt' harm them but it feels uncomfortable (needle pricks) and causes flushing....specifically to the ears and face. It can also make them hyperactive.
Stop confusing me.

I have my theories and I'm not open to more information.


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