Healing the Gut Tribe ~ February - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:14 AM
 
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Something I've been thinking about for a while now.
Not sure if I have the guts to post in Allergies Forum... yet.

So give me feedback on this, I'll try to explain my thoughts.

I now think Elimination Diets are Harmful.

They advance the theory that you just need to take out things from your diet as opposed to putting imporant nutrients in: probiotics, minerals, etc. to heal your immune system.

I know my diet was deficient when I did the Elim. Diet. Think of the top allergens (wheat, dairy, eggs, nuts, fish, soy). Those are some pretty healthy foods with important nutrients (well with the exception of soy ).

So I've been looking back at all we've been through. And thinking about important threads lately here at MDC:

Prepping for Pregnancy

The crucial nature of superior nutrition and immune system in building a healthy baby.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=398509

Nutrition and BFing
If your diet is not excellent, neither is your milk.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=343188

Are Allergies Really Allergies
When I first started looking into gut healing instead of just Elmination Diets to fix all this.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=295112

Nutrition and Immunology 101
How hard it is to construct a healthy diet in today's world.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=406983

Causes of Autism
Exactly what a deficient diet and immune system can and does result in.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=367180

All of this impresses upon me that the problem is much larger than even "doing a special diet".

I so know newbies do NOT want to hear this right now! But maybe you can make some better choices with this information too.
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#182 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahariz
Hmm, I just looked it up... sounds interesting. Maybe this is what I need to read since I can't understand why my body would not be producing enough enzymes to digest the food I eat.
Yes, you do! It's a great explanation of the digestive tract. All about how the body makes enzymes, a lot of them are in the lining of the small intestine... the fingerlike projections called villi make the disaccharidases, to digest disaccharides (the foods we are taking out on the SCD b/c they are fermenting undigested in the gut and feeding yeast/bacteria).
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#183 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bestbirths
Is the awesome book on migraines Enzymes and Autism by Karen DeFelice? Would I want to buy this or would checking it out at the library and reading it once give me all the information I would need?
Yes, that is the awesome book

I keep referring to mine, but there is a lot of info on her site and her Yahoo Group. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/EnzymesandAutism/

But not about the background on behavioral and sensory issues and how the gut effects those.
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#184 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bestbirths
On the D-lactate free probiotic. I fed my son Klaire labs probiotic and the whites of his already chronically irritated eyes turned yellow and his poop turned green!!!!! The autism merc list folks are so smart because they pinpointed this right away to be a reaction to D-lactate which is found in l. acidophilous and certain strains of probiotic....

So...for ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY BUCKS...with shipping we purchased a d-lactate free probiotic, and ds is handling it just fine...

but like GULP! on the cost of it...maybe the bottle will last a long long time!

Ds friend wrecked his car and fixed it for the cost of this little bottle of probiotic. We were joking about that the other day.....
OMG, that is ridiculous, do you have a link for the solid gold probiotic?
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#185 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annikate
Would you guys who know more about this advise me on what to feed her?
So far on the SCD it's been:
bananas
peaches
pears
applesauce

Are peaches a no no to begin with? I'm wondering if that's contributing to her pitiful allergy look????? PLUS, she's been constipated.
Thanks!
I know it's really, really hard!

She's only on BM and fruit and she's constipated? Yeast and bacterial issues can cause constip. too, not just diarrhea. Are you drinking a TON of water, like 16 glasses?

Make sure bananas are spotted with black. Have you tried pureed veggies? Butternut squash?

I don't think her look is due to one food, it's the whole thing.
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#186 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 01:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane S
I now think Elimination Diets are Harmful.
I agree. It totally makes sense.

Can I just whine about yogurt making for a minute! AAAAAHHHHHHH! I am destined NOT to make it. This is my third BOTCHED batch (say that 3 times fast), and it's making me !

It's seperated in the mason jars. Did the temp get too hot? I brought it to 180 and then let it sit at 100.

I've also been posting over at pecanbread. I'm kumadexmom over there (an old yahoo name that I was too lazy to change.) THey said over there that 100 was not high enough. (?)

Geez. You know, my first batch looked good and actually tasted pretty good too (a little sour), but I know it did not stay at a high enough temp so I tossed it. Could it have been okay since it looked and tasted okay?

OT: I found a wonderful organic co-op here as a result of my search for raw milk and the lady that owns it has a sister who works for Dr. Sears. DH was telling her about DD's troubles and this diet, etc... Well, she spoke w/him about die-off and said she'd be happy to give me her sister's phone # and I could talk to Dr. Sears directly re: this if I wanted to. I've read several of his books, but nothing re: this topic!

Enough . Going back to bed.
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#187 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Bestbirths
DID any of you hear the latest, that MCDonalds fries are NOT gluten free? Not that they were healthy anyhow. But it seems they lied the whole time and contain gluten!!!!!

Yep. And not only do they contain wheat, they also contain dairy. Supposedly the wheat and dairy get processed out in the processing. They are labeling it now to comply with the new food labeling law. Kind of sucks. I know they aren't healthy, but they used to be the only thing I felt comfortable giving my allergic child when we ended up eating out.
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#188 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 11:16 AM
 
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Jane, I have posted something to that effect several times. Not only are they harmful, they don't work. Unless steps are taken to heal the gut, all you end up with is DIFFERENT FOODS YOU ARE NOW ALLERGIC TO. It is harmful, and results in a terribly inhealthy diet (9 times out of 10) With good information people could prevent a leaky gut from ever happening, let alone having to heal it...but for those of us who are late to the game it is important to be giving a nourishing diet to allow the body every opportunity to heal. I cringe when I hear about mamas who had allergy tests (having been there myself) and eliminate thirty foods from their diets and are living on four foods...Karen DeFelice talks about mamas like that in her book. How do you expect your body to be able to do ANYTHING normal under those circumstances?!?! Your gut has holes, it still has holes, and now you are sensitizing it to the four foods you're eating. It's pretty well documented-that's how it works. Jane, you should post. Just let us know when you do it so we can run over and support you!
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#189 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 11:41 AM
 
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custom probiotics is the solid gold probiotic, but you have to scroll down to #8 for the D-lactate free. Now that I look at it, I don't even know if they make a d-lactate free yogurt starter!!! Yes, I just checked and their yogurt starter has l. acidophilous in it, and that is what my son can't have

LOL how they say their probiotics are "affordable".......
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#190 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:32 PM
 
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Thanks Elisabeth,

I must have missed your posts! I've been thinking about this for a while, but finally everything has gelled in my poor tired brain.

Saving this link for the "discussion"

http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/HeatLabile.htm

Quote:
When the food does not digest properly, it can sit in the gut, unable to be assimilated completely, and it starts to become toxic. The carbohydrates start to ferment, the proteins begin to putrefy and the fats become rancid. These toxins irritate the lining of the gastrointestinal tract mucosa. This can poison the gut bacteria, causing the ecology of the gut to become upset. Three hundred to 400 of the bacteria species can become upset, causing overgrowth of candida and other pathogens. The irritation also causes the cells on the lining of the gastrointestinal tract enlarge. When the cells become larger, the putrefied, undigested food slips into the bloodstream, sometimes called the leaky gut syndrome. These are also called "free radicals", with such formidable names as cadaverines, endols, putricine and phenol.

Since it is the liver's job to detoxify toxins, the liver becomes overloaded and unable to do its job. In the bloodstream, this undigested or partially-digested food (in the form of macromolecules) is in particles too large to get into the cells to function. This undigested or partially-digested food moves through the bloodstream, causing havoc in the body. This is a form of food allergy. It can go to the head and cause the classic symptoms of allergy such as runny nose, eyes, scratchy throat, itchy ears, sinusitis and sneezing. It can go to the brain and cause headaches, anger, fatigue, schizophrenia and perspiration. This putrefied food can go to the joints or tissues and cause arthritis, or to the nerves and cause multiple sclerosis. These macromolecules can also go to the skin and cause acne, edema, psoriasis or rashes. It can lodge anywhere in the soft tissues in the body and cause problems.
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#191 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahariz
Hmm, I just looked it up... sounds interesting. Maybe this is what I need to read since I can't understand why my body would not be producing enough enzymes to digest the food I eat.
Had lots of thoughts about this this morning...

"Nourishing Traditions" is also a great book to understand the impact of our diet on our bodies. A diet of mostly cooked food depletes our enzyme resources.

Edward Howell, the father of enzyme research was the first to explain:

Quote:
Enzymes are complex proteins that act as catalysts in almost every biochemical process that takes place in the body. Their activity depends on the presence of adequate vitamins and minerals, particularly magnesium. Many enzymes incorporate a single molecule of a trace mineral—such as manganese, copper, iron or zinc-without which the enzyme cannot function. http://www.westonaprice.org/nutritiongreats/howell.html
http://www.fruitarian.com/ac/Enzymes.htm

(p.s. I love how the "fruitarians" forgot the raw milk and butter rec at the end of the article )

Especially the phytates in whole grains (and nuts and soy) which is now the mantra of modern healthy diets... and they are damaging to the body if not soaked first or bread is not sourdough. Whole grains that are not soaked inhibit enzymes as well as bind to minerals. http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/be_kind.html

NT recommends aiming for half of the diet to come from raw foods: raw milk/butter/cheese/cream, fermented veggies and fermented dairy in addition to fresh fruits and vegetables. And even raw meat and raw liver. Because raw fats and raw proteins are very healthful.

Thinking of the Eskimos, who thrived on a diet of mostly raw meat and raw fats... with NO ketosis! Because the raw foods contained so many enzymes, their bodies digested them completely. (And apparently that is what kept them warm, their metabolism burning it all off.)

Acid-Alkaline balance effects enzymes: http://www.price-pottenger.org/Artic...id_alk_bal.htm

Quote:
Too much omega-6 in the diet "uses up" the delta-6 desaturase enzymes needed for the omega-3 pathway
http://www.price-pottenger.org/Artic...staglandin.htm
Omega 6's are in vegetable oils -- the current fad in supposedly healthy diets. (Canola, safflower, sunflower, corn oils are not healthy). Again, the current modern diet rec are all wrong.
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#192 of 443 Old 02-18-2006, 05:57 PM
 
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Ok, I'm sold on this approach but I don't know how to start.

I ordered the book.

I'm very confused trying to figure out what we can eat at first.

Where might I find dry curd cottage cheese?

Also, I'm anemic and on iron. What should I do?

And we are ttc. I'll know in a few days if we were sucessful this cycle. Can I/should I try to follow this while pg?

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#193 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 02:55 AM
 
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On my 4th attempt to make yogurt, I began heating it to the required 180 degrees and as soon as it reached 100 it began to curdle and seperate. Did I get a bad batch of milk to begin with? It smelled kind of yucky when I opened it up.

On my 2nd attempt, I actually used some yummy looking and smelling raw jersey cow milk. The yogurt came out looking and smelling and tasting pretty good (a little sour tasting) but I tossed it out because I know that my oven did not maintain the proper temp overnight. :

So . . . what' up? Am I destined NEVER to eat this stuff???????????????????

I think I got TWO rotten batches of raw milk in a row. Am I right? What do you all think?

Now I have to wait 'til TUesday to get the good jersey milk again.
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#194 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 06:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
I now think Elimination Diets are Harmful.
What you're saying makes sense to me, but how else do you figure out allergies when babies are young and allergy testing is faulty? OR are you meaning that it doesn't matter which foods you're intolerant of/allergic to if you are healing the gut? Do you just start SCD including offending foods? If not, at what point do you re-introduce them?
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#195 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 10:56 AM
 
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RedAnt: Exactly. You really don't need to know the allergens (unless you're talking anaphalaxis which is a different ball game.) The SCD has no "offending" foods in terms of foods that will further damage your gut. It does allow foods I'm not on board with...pasteurized cheeses, some sweeteners etc. Consuming those things IMO aren't conducive to good health, but as I said, they will allow your gut to heal. That said, dd can't do pasteurized dairy, but can tolerate raw dairy so there may be some wiggle room once you start-make sense? Food (except in the case of celiac disease) does not inherently damage the gut. It's the imbalances within the gut that are the problem. Heavy metal overload, yeast overgrowth, dysbiosis etc. can cause holes to form in the lining and allow food to leak through into the bloodstream. Your body then attacks it, pinpointing it as an invader, and launches an immune response. You will continue having that response until the gut lining is healed up. The foods leaking through are eliciting a response, but not causing damage. So, unless you are experiencing an anaphalactic response I don't really feel it's important to "know" what the offending foods are. And I'm speaking as a mama who's kids had about 18 identifies allergens each that I chose to ignore and heal. HTH. Jane may have alot more to add, mine was the condensed version.

Annikate: I never heated my milk past 115-but you are saying it curdled way earlier than that. Hmmmmm. I'm sorry you are going through this! It will be a bit sour when you are done though. Maybe somebody else will be more helpful. Keep trying...it's totally worth it just for the versatility it provides in recipes!
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#196 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 10:58 AM
 
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Oh, redant...you don't need to worry about reintroducing problematic foods because as I said food isn't the problem. You can decide for yourself when to go off the SCD, but it is a very healthful program and the only thing you are missing are grains-which I never found I did well re-introducing.
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#197 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 11:02 AM
 
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Jane, I know I posted here (very gently pushing towards this forum!!), but I have also been on boards with people with celiac disease, and other various food allergies and intolerances doing these ridiculously intense elimination diets. In fact a while back I referred one mama here who was eating like seven foods. It's a big problem IMO. I'm just lucky to have found you and Moneca back in August! I was also lucky to have a doc and an LC who said the same thing to me. Elimintaion diets just produce more allergies. That's how I initially found quercetin and MSM. I feel blessed to have all the right people in my life.
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#198 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 04:56 PM
 
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I ordered the book on amazon and also a yougart maker for like $15 (if anyone is interested in one.) It looks like it will work nicely for incubating the yougart and the two togther gave me free shipping

I am making some yougart now and trying to eat up a bunch of my favorite foods

I'm torn about starting this diet now and just putting away the "bad" foods (that aren't perishable) or putting it off a week. My dd and I have a cold and dh has a migrane and a stomach ache today (he has far more gi "issues" than we do).

It says lots of places to do the intro diet untill the diahrea stops. None of us currently have diahrea. Will we get it on the intro diet or does the diet assume that is an issue for everyone doing this? If we don't have diahrea do we need to do the intro or can we skip right to stage 1?

Thanks for now.

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#199 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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I'm probably the last one to answer your question Patty, but I just realized (since I have not received or read the book yet), that I have skipped over the first stage myself. I did not have any real *symptoms* per se either and it seems to be working for me. I made the mistake of trying some pecans w/honey and cinnamon and that was stupid! I suffered a tummy ache after that so I guess I'm not ready for nuts.

I cleaned my pantry and boxed up my *bad* food and gave it all to a neighbor. None of it was really junk, but lots of wheat, pastas, etc...

And . . . I cooked all day long again today and froze a lot of yummy stuff for the week.

Still waiting to have some yogurt . . . . :
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#200 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 06:44 PM
 
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One more question.

Would something like nystantin or diflucan be beneficial/legal on this diet? Does anyone know of the dangers of these drugs esp in light of our ttc status (I'm 6 dpo today)?

Thanks!

I am realizing how all the dietary changes I have been making for our family are like a gradula transition into this diet. That is a good thing, none of us cope with change well.

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#201 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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Patty,

You can and should follow this diet when you are pregnant, with a focus on maximizing the nutrients in your food.

I used Nystatin and it didn't work because I had not completely fixed my diet. I never tried Diflucan even with a bad case of systemic yeast because of the possibility of liver damage -- if memory serves, minor liver damage happens in something like 1% of cases and major is something like 1/10 of 1%. If you are breastfeeding the risk probably holds for baby as well and may be greater. I wouldn't use it pregnant, so I wouldn't chance it at 6 dpo.

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#202 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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WOW, I am new to MDC and I was just browsing this thread since I love Nutrition. I also have leaky gut/food sensitivites and best of all Candida. My head is spinning with all this new found information. I have been doing a "candida diet" now for 2 weeks and honestly I haven't any "die off" symptoms. I have lost weight but thats about it. I was hoping for some really great healing crisis symptoms.
Anyway I browsed through the SCD and it makes me skeptical that it would help with yeast overgrowth if you are eating such foods as fruits, vinegars and fungus (mushrooms) & sweets. So does this diet really help with that or is it more with actually "bowel" issues like colitis & IBS?
Is the answer that the foods you are eating are going to be healing the gut so therefor the Candida will die off?? I just can't wrap my head around that being true yet I want to.
My other concern is the dairy. I have learned a lot about dairy over the last little while and how bad it can be for you since it is mucous forming, so if someone can explain that to me please help me understand why it would be good for you. I have cut dairy out of my diet for quite sometime now and I can totally see a difference in me, so introducing dairy back in would be very scary to me, especially since I do have a casein allergy.
I personally have issues with meat too, though I have been eating it while doing the candida diet, but I have to say that seeing pork as legal was a shock because in ALL stuff I have read pork is a no always!

Anywho, this chat has REALLY intrigued me. I feel pretty knowledgable for the most part of nutrition and this is ALL new to me. SO I guess being so interested in try to heal myself I just need a little more comfort in knowing that THIS diet would solve my problems.

TIA!!... wow, is really all I can say, lol!
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#203 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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Ma2twins: This diet is great for yeast. There's alot of info out there that is quite outdated, and I know its hard to believe that you can eat fruits and vinegars and still kill off the yeast-but you can! My die off on this diet was incredible, I never had it with an anti-candida diet. It blew my mind. Also, I am there with you on the dairy, but the question (as you will hear again and again) is were you doing raw or pasteurized dairy? There is a huge difference. I was about as anti-dairy as it gets, but as I read I am changing my mind. I don't think it will ever be a large part of my diet, but raw cheeses and yogurt every now and again are not problematic for me.
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#204 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 08:15 PM
 
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FWIW I wouldn't do Nystatin or Difucan regardless of whether or not I was TTC. They scare me, don't work very well and you don't need them. If this diet alone isn't doing it fast enough, you can add GSE, enzymes and probiotics (which are recommended on the diet anyhow) You will kill your yeast problem. I can't tell you how horrible my yeast was, and it's gone. I am now pregnant and nursing and am doing the diet again-just for insurance. Both my kids had serious gut issues, and I am doing everything I can not to have another kiddo with them.
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#205 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 08:31 PM
 
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I think if you have a casein allergy, then you should not do dairy -- www.pecanbread.com has plenty of info on how to do SCD dairy-free.

I think that there are no standard solutions to gut injury, and that something that works for some may not work for others. I have been on SCD for over four months, but cheese and yogurt still give me migraines, which I take as a sign my gut hasn't healed (well, that and the diarrhea). I guess though that it's supposed to take a year. I was hoping that I would be free of the migraines at least, though.

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#206 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 08:56 PM
 
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Ok, I really want to start now! But I don't have the book yet.

What has the pecanbread intro diet left off? Where does dairy fit in? Is that all it leaves out?

I've got yougart in the fridge chilling for breakfast tomorrow. I "think" that we don't need to do the intro for more than a day or so because our symptoms aren't severe, right?

Also what do you know about epsom salt baths? That is mentioned on pecanbread to help with the die off. I have done them in the past for various reasons. Is there a limit to how much I should put in a bath for my 2 year old? Can we soak in it together or do we need different strengths? I never used to let her soak in it in case it would be too much for her.

I'm convinced to not to the antifungals, thanks for the info. I'm seeing my Dr tomorrow and wanted to know if I should be asking for this.

Oh and dry curd cottage cheese. Is that easy to find? I haven't ever looked for it. Would they have it at Whole foods? Once I can get my raw dairy again I'll just make my own but untill then I need to buy it.

How soon can I expect to see results? I'm planning to pack up the grains for now and put them in the basement (I already gave away all my gluten stuff and replaced it w/super expensive gluten free stuff, not ready to give that up just yet)

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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#207 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 09:04 PM
 
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I shouldn't have used the word "allergy"... i guess its more of a sensativity since I never knew I was "sensative" to it until I was tested for allergies. Very interesting about the raw dairy though. It makes me sad cause I odn't know where I can get raw dairy here in Winnipeg. When I was living in Nova Scotia I had a raw goat farmer right in my town and we did eat the yogurt. I LOVE cheese and yogurt so if I could eat it and still be healthy I would be THRILLED!!!... Now I just need to find out how I can get it.

Oh do you all do organic meat? I just cannot afford organic meat, there is just no way. For a pound of beef its 8$ and for a little tiny chicken its 12$. I guess that would help me eat less portion. Because I couldn't afford meat I figured I just wouldn't eat it. I do eat wild salmon though. So if I can't get organic meat does that mean I shouldn't consume meat, how does that work?

firefaery~ If you don't mind me asking, how did you know you had Candida? what were your symptoms? How long did you do the Candida diet for? How long before doing the SCD did you notice a difference? Would you say you are candida free now?
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#208 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 10:00 PM
 
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Let's see...chronic vaginal yeast infections(read:every day of my life), thrush, gas, fungal overgrowth on my skin, headaches, dizziness, achiness...I had yeast like NOBODY'S business! I did a couple of colonics as well, and the woman said she had never seen so much yeast. Eeew. I did anti-candida diets several times and for months at a clip as prescribed by my naturopath. It never worked. I saw a difference two days into the SCD. the die off was awful. I never had a vaginal infection while on it, and didn't for awhile afterwards either. I just realized I have one now though, so I'm back on the diet. So ...I was yeast-free, but now I'm not (I have been off it for three months now? Something like that.) I'm also increasing my enzymes, taking them between meals to speed up the killing of the yeast.
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#209 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 10:11 PM
 
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Oh WOW, thats just crazy!!! I can't imagine living like that on a daily basis. But you certainly inspire me to do this. How long did you stay on the SCD?

My fear is really the non-organic meats and I am guessing I would have to do the dairy free part of it since I doubt I can find raw dairy.

I think I am going to go get the book on Tuesday.
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#210 of 443 Old 02-19-2006, 10:49 PM
 
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Ok we have started the diet. I think we will just do the intro for tonight and tomorrow then start adding foods. When can we add cheese?

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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