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Spencersmom 05-24-2006 08:29 PM

I am very sure that my son and I are suffering from Leaky Gut. I have read the Healing the Gut sticky and some of the support thread. It is all so overwhelming and I really feel like I need support IRL. What would you recommend? Where do I start? A naturopath? A medical doctor? I have the sense that I COULD do it by reading on my own but I don't know if I would be able to handle creating a balanced diet for my son and I.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to get started.

mamajessica 05-24-2006 08:35 PM

Look into the Simple Carbohydrate Diet and, both are sooo helpful and provide clear diet plans. Then read the sticky again, it makes more sense and will be easier to integrate. And know that this is a long road with many steps
A med doctor is likely to be little help, a naturopath would be the way to go, if you feel like a practitioner would be helpful to you.

Spencersmom 05-24-2006 08:39 PM

I have just one other question (that's a joke right????? ) I am bfing my 2 year old. Can I get into this diet while nursing? What about die off from yeast? Wouldn't that be toxic in my breastmilk?

Okay, three questions. Thank you for helping me.

EBG 05-24-2006 09:19 PM

Most HtG mamas do SCD while breastfeeding. Me too. I think yeast die-off affects most babies. Some will have rashes, diaper rash, colic, mucousy, runny poop, thrush or fussyness. I think you need to go slow to minimize die-off and use other means to help the detoxification process, such as proteases, epsom salt baths or pascalite clay. We also have to stay away from harsh herbs such as oregano oil, gse, pau d'arco just to name a few. The SCD is a pretty gentle way of dealing with yeast.
I'm also a little concerned about the dead yeast toxins going through the milk and affecting the baby's liver... Curious to hear what JaneS or any other knowledgable Mama would say.

Panserbjorne 05-25-2006 12:20 AM

Its kind of all a balancing act. What is dealing with some die off, or living with systemic yeast that is wreaking havoc on his/her system? You want to go slow-ish, and the baby may have some symptoms of discomfort but there are ways to mediate that. It is far better to get going and stop the damage.

You aren't going to find great support in this area. Who is your ped? There are a couple in CT that would be very helpful in getting you info...beyond that you are MUCH better off reading and learning yourself. Most ND's will put you on an elimination diet if they take you seriously. They will also rob you blind with useless supplements. I know most every ND in your area-you are far better off on this board.

We've been healing the gut for about a year now. IT is quite a task, but not at all insurmountable. IF you really want to doc I could recommend one, but really you are your best bet.

A&A 05-25-2006 12:25 AM

My current favorite doctor is an internist.

Panserbjorne 05-25-2006 12:28 AM

It really depends on the individual doc. Glad you have a great one! My ped was far more helpful than my ND, but really I did more for us than they did...

Spencersmom 05-25-2006 08:35 PM

firefaery - My ped is Edward Kavle at Torrington-Winsted Pediatrics. I really like him but I don't know how he would feel about all of this. It wouldn't hurt to ask I guess. I just took ds today to see Dr. Rosen who is an food allergy specialist. I know it is important to find out what food sensitivities there are so that those foods can be avoided during the SCD. His skin test was inconclusive and now we have to do a blood test, which stinks, but I would rather know.

It is extremely disappointing that there aren't any practitioners in this area that believe in this stuff. I have been reading about Leaky Gut and Candida overgrowth and I am as sure that this is our problem and I am sure that the sky is blue and the trees are green. It makes perfect sense and fits with so many of the symptoms we are experiencing. I just don't understand how it doesn't make perfect sense to them too. I mean naturopaths especially are supposed to look for the cause of a disorder, not just treat the symptoms. Doesn't it seem like that is exactly what they are doing if they just put you on a rotation diet?

I don't want to sound like a cry baby because I know you have all been in my shoes but I am feeling very intimidated by the SCD. It sounds like a lot of work and potentially a lot of money. It is even more scary when you think about doing it with little support. There are so many things I would have to learn how to do (making my own yogurt, using coconut milk). Things I would have to buy that I have never cooked with before. How bad IS the cost? What does the bulk of the cost come from? From food purchasing or from the "supplements" that you need to take?

With all that said, I am also feeling optimistic. It gives me hope to think that all these terrible symptoms and my food allergies could be eradicated. I wouldn't even know what it felt like to be "normal".

BTW firefaery- I am pleasantly surprised that you are in my area. Don't you also post on Friendly Forest sometimes? Anyway, great to "meet" you and thanks for the input.

Panserbjorne 05-25-2006 11:11 PM

Oh you are starting to sing my song. I am very unhappy with the lack of support from the medical establishment. ND's around here DO just treat the symptoms and leave their patients floundering for sometimes years with no resolution. There are many mamas you could confirm this with IRL. Sad, but true.

You don't need a blood test for the SCD. THe whole idea is that food isn't the problem, leaky gut and candida is. The only reason to identify allergens is if you have something severe (and IgE response that is anaphalactic, or an autoimmune issue like celiac disease in which case the food is what is doing the damage.) Otherwise you wouldn't need to eliminate allergens in order to heal. We didn't-though we did have the test. IT was interesting (now we know we have celiac disease) but gluten is strictly avoided on the SCD anyway. Once you heal the gut lining the proteins can no longer leak through the gut, they can no longer enter the bloodstream and therefore no longer elicit a reaction from the body.

IT isn't that expensive. The bulk of the expense is just whole foods. The issue is that you are now eating real food, so the cheaper options aren't permissible. I baked quite a bit and nut flours are expensive, but you don't need to really go that route. It can be done pretty inexpensively. Eggs aren't expensive, bones for stock aren't expensive, fruit and veggies don't need to be, especially now. Meat can get pricey, but there are ways to be frugal. Supplements are NOT necessary. The only thing you NEED is a good mineral supplement and probiotics. The probiotics can come from yogurt so you don't even need to buy them. The rest is just doing what you feel is necessary, but isnt' essential to the success of the diet.

HTH, and you can always talk to me!

Spencersmom 05-26-2006 10:46 AM

Thank you firefaery for the offer to talk. It is really comforting to know there is someone out there who has been down this road. I am also comforted to know that the support thread exists. That is a godsend I am sure.

One of my main reasons for wanting professional support is that I both my ds and I have been diagnosed with food sensitivities - not true food allergy. In my research of this, I came across SCD and Healing The Gut. I have read on a great site that you MUST not consume your allergic food while healing the gut because it continues to trigger the immune response. Here is the exerpt. It is from

<<In the healing of the intestinal lining, exposure to a significant allergy can sabotage the treatment. For example, one may be very good at restricting wheat, dairy and eggs, but then compromises the treatment by taking garlic tablets.>>

If I am going to follow the SCD, I would hate to be negating the work by eating my restricted foods, iykwim. It wouldn't make any sense. The grain thing would be easy but .... I don't want to go on and on about my questions but there are things that I stay away from because I don't feel well when I eat them (beef, bananas, tomatoes, although they are not diagnosed as food sensitivities for me). But they are on the SCD. Now it may be that it is not those particular foods themselves but what I eat in conjunction with them that is more of the problem. I just don't feel like I have the knowledge ot sort all this out on my own. I also have questions about Food Type Diet guidelines and the SCD. Maybe I could post these types of questions on the Healing The Gut thread but I worry about burdening people who already have enough to do. What do you think? I don't want to be a pain in the .

I wonder if I could approach a naturopath saying "I have decided to do x,y and z (or more accurately s,c and d ). Could you help me get started and think through some issues I am having?" I wonder if anyone would be receptive to that. You seem to have a good sense of the naturopaths in the area but it doesn't sound very promising. And, MD's don't even really seem to believe in food sensitivities and how many health problems can come from that.

Thanks again for your help firefaery and everyone else who has written with some input. I appreciate it very much.

Panserbjorne 05-26-2006 12:23 PM

I would encourage you to read more about hte science behind a leaky gut. As I said before the food isn't causing intestinal damage unless you are having IgE reactions or an autoimmune disease. We consumed all of our allergens (as do many people) while healing with the exception of IgE reactive foods and the gluten that is the root of the problem with celiac. Try reading about hte SCD in Elaine's book, or to get a REALLY accurate picture pick up Karen DeFelice's Enzymes for Autism to understand why this is the case. Allergies in almost all cases don't damage the gut. Candida, vaccines, antibiotics etc. damage the gut and allow food particles to cross the intestinal barrier. It's supposed to be non-permeable (to food) and once holes are punched in it you start developing these allergies.

You can absolutely get tested, just be aware that no test is 100% accurate when it comes to IgG responses (which are allergies-not intolerances and that never fails to frustrate me!) Docs' who call them just intolerances aren't acknowledging the damage you are doing to your neurological system and brain function. IT's a cerebral allergy and just as bad. Try looking at IT's Karen's site and is pretty good, but the book is far more comprehensive.

Let us know what you decide to do, just be aware that "conventional" wisdom will leave you high and dry here. Trust you instincts for sure...but do some significant digging first.

I can alsogive you some info on supplements that will mediate the histamine response and prevent further reactions from occuring as well as stopping reactions that already exist in some cases. There is hope!

Spencersmom 05-26-2006 01:26 PM

Yes, thank you for reminding me that I have a lot to learn and a lot of reading to do. I am on my way to look for them now.

And thank you for the enzyme site. I will read there while I am waiting for my books to arrive.

Panserbjorne 05-26-2006 02:14 PM

We're all learning here! IT's just nice to be able to draw down the answers from those who have been there before us...I was really lucky to have incredible care providers and wish I could pass them on to you (some I can, FWIW) but mostly they just let me wander and acknowledged that they didn't know. The gave me some hints and pushes in the right direction, but knew enough to know that there was more out there. The exception to this across the board were the several ND's I saw. My DhT, IBCLC, chiropractor and family care practitioner were awesome. And they have learned a bit from me, and that feels pretty good! Good luck on the reading and be sure to give a shout if you need help processing!

JaneS 05-26-2006 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by EBG
I'm also a little concerned about the dead yeast toxins going through the milk and affecting the baby's liver... Curious to hear what JaneS or any other knowledgable Mama would say.
I don't know of any specific learning on this but my general feeling is that you are already passing the yeast and bacteria themselves, as well as the neurotoxins which they secrete, onto your child if you are currently nursing with an intestinal flora imbalance.

sarahariz 05-26-2006 10:31 PM

That's true-the person that did my live blood analysis and found yeast in my blood and in dd's (but not as much!) says the yeast can travel into the baby through the breast milk.

Found this interesting list today

Also, this is a good, but technical, article on leaky gut-I think it is one I originally got from Jane

He implies that you must eliminate your allergenic foods in order for the gut to heal.

It is just my opinion that the SCD isn't the only way to heal the gut.

Spencersmom 05-26-2006 10:47 PM

From what I have read so far, it does sound to me like I should be avoiding the foods I am sensitive too. It sounds like at the beginning the intestines are so damaged that foods you are allergic to just perpetuate the cycle. Once the intestines are healed and no longer permeable, it would make sense that you could reintroduce those foods and have no problem.

I have another question that I just seem not to be able to wait to ask. I just bought Breaking the Vicious Cycle and did some more reading through the Healing The Gut thread as well as the SCD website. Am I correct in understanding that, when it can be introduced, that the SCD yogurt cannot be made from cow's milk? I cannot tolerate the taste of goat milk. Are the nut yogurts any good? Would yogurt made from kefir grains be allowed?

Thanks again for the information. Now I am anxiously awaiting my book. And I checked. My library does not have it so I can't run over there and check it out while I wait .

Panserbjorne 05-26-2006 11:34 PM

You can use cow's milk no problem.

There are many ways to heal a leaky gut, and the SCD is only one. I chose it because we didn't have to avoid allergens and for us, avoiding known allergens would have meant malnutrition-never mind the unknown.

The only damage (from all the reading I have done) that you will perpetuate is the reactions. If you have eczema from allergies it will not get better until the gut is healed, and you may want to avoid it to eliminate discomfort, but I don't believe it will aggravate the damage to the intestinal lining. Feed the yeast, possibly. But as I said before it is very individual. I chose to do it this way because I didn't want to get any more malnourished than I already was. If you saw my list of blood tested and confirmed allergies you would understand. We avoided eggs for some time because I couldn't tolerate my ds's reactions...but adding them back in after a couple of months was fine.

We also used EFT, homeopathy and several other alternative therapies and supplements. My kids and I are so much better-that's all the proof I need!

Panserbjorne 05-26-2006 11:43 PM

Oh-and FWIW this has become an area of passion for me and I have never seen anything but the SCD that allows you to eat foods you are intolerant of and heal without outside help. You can find all the evidence you want to the contrary, but I can say that this works. Karen DeFelice talks about the dangers of an elimination diet but uses enzymes to allow you to consume allergenic foods. The SCD bypasses the supplements and just heals the gut lining by removing all food for pathogens. Some people (myself included as of month 3 on the diet) utlize the enzymes along with the diet for speedier healing. There are many paths.

Once you read these books you will understand more-I promise!

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