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#361 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 04:52 PM
 
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Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#362 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 04:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
Yes, that is what I'm thinking too...

This? You sent me the PDF of this entire article I believe. Whoops nevermind, entire article is linked below...

Origins and evolution of the Western diet: health implications for the
21st century

Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Feb;81(2):341-54.
Cordain L, Eaton SB, Sebastian A, Mann N, Lindeberg S, Watkins BA, O'Keefe JH, Brand-****** J.
Department of Health and Exercise Science, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523, USA.

There is growing awareness that the profound changes in the environment (eg, in diet and other lifestyle conditions) that began with the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry approximately 10000 y ago occurred too recently on an evolutionary time scale for the human genome to adjust. In conjunction with this discordance between our ancient, genetically determined biology and the nutritional, cultural, and activity patterns of contemporary Western populations, many of the so-called diseases of civilization have emerged. In particular, food staples and food-processing procedures introduced during the Neolithic and Industrial Periods have fundamentally altered 7 crucial nutritional characteristics of ancestral hominin diets: 1) glycemic load, 2) fatty acid composition, 3) macronutrient composition, 4) micronutrient density, 5) acid-base balance, 6) sodium-potassium ratio, and 7) fiber content. The evolutionary collision of our ancient genome with the nutritional qualities of recently introduced foods may underlie many of the chronic diseases of Western civilization.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/2/341

Now I think it's an earlier study that we talked about Amanda...?
This is such an interesting topic.
We had a similar discussion a few months back in my local Mom's group (www.fnlp.org) and one of the mamas (she's an MDC mama, too, but I don't think she's subbed here) is a doctoral student/archaelogist and posted this:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, this is something I know alot alot alot about. It was one of my Ph.D. exam questions. In archaeology, it is called the "Neolithic question" -- something we see over and over again in the skeletal remains of neolithic peoples. They are really unhealthy compared to their palaeolithic counterparts. Take one population which I know well -- Greece.

Remember: Palaeolithic = pre-agriculture. No dairy at all, hunting and gathering, wild meat. nomadic AND settled homes (caves) 500,000 BC until about 10,000 BC

Neolithic: agriculture, animals raised for meat/fur/dairy, settled villages as well as pastured areas away from the villages for their animals. After 10,000 BC (in the NE, 7,000 BC in Greece, later in Europe, Asia)

I've done alot of research on what people ate during both periods...the person writing this description of the palaeolthic diet is wrong on at least one major count. They ate grains and beans...not in the amount we do, to be sure, but they ate grasses and wild wheat/einkorn seasonally. They couldn't store them, but they did eat them when they were available in their areas. In Greece, there are 2 harvests. The Near East, 3 harvests in some areas (the fertile crescent, where agriculture seems to have begun, is aptly named for this reason!) They ate lots of small wild game (small mammals that were probably shared with a large extended family by making broths or soups), rare large game, and alot of fish & birds -- in Greece, even deep sea tuna (which required pretty good boats...seagoing...in the PALAEOLITHIC period!) They ate lots of greens (lots), berries, fruit, wild olives, eggs. Basically, they ate whatever they could get their hands on. We find that they cooked some of their food (another major problem with the article), especially meat and grains/legumes. But, most was consumed raw.

The NEOLITHIC period, well , their diets are alot like ours. All of a sudden, people have terrible teeth, cancers, diabetes (you can tell all this from the bones), osteoporosis, arthritis, etc. etc. People were shorter, had shorter life spans, had trouble giving birth (more infant/maternal mortality.) The Neolithic marks the time period when people consuming diets of grain, beer, legumes, some meat (raised, not wild) and dairy products. All cooked and processed. All of which are great sources of calories, but really was a blow to people's health.

We know all of this for the palaeolithic period because we've EXCAVATED and recovered this evidence. It is possible (actually easy) to recover all this information for very ancient times. Some goes for the Neolithic period, but also in the Neolithic, we have written records (especially in the NE) that give us a description of what they are eating, records of eating/farming/animal husbandry, etc.

I have to agree--- our genetics dictate that the Palaeolithic way of eating is the way our biology (all of us) are supposed to eat. We became genetically human at the dawn of the palaeolithic period. Homo sapiens sapiens. We are the same people now as we were at the beginning of the palaeolithic period -- genetically, brain size, smarts, emotionally...language, sentimentality, art...we had it all by the time the palaeolithic period started. We have not adapted physically (genetically) to the influx of calories (with less nutritional value) that the neolithic/agricultural way of eating provides for us. This is a very very recent invention (Palaeolithic period begins 500,000 yrs ago in the NE. Compare that to the c. 10,000 yrs ago for the inception of agriculture.) People's health deteriorated in the Neolithic because of this. I am trying (badly most days, but trying) to eat with the palaeolithic diet in mind. Small amounts of grain/legumes, large amounts of veggies, fish, broths (not from small mammals, but chicken...) berries, fruits, eggs....AS SEASONALLY AS POSSIBLE! As raw as possible.
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#363 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 04:57 PM
 
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--continued--

And then when I questioned whether she thought that the answer lies in the fact that these ancient civilizations excercised (or at least moved around) more than we, she wrote:

Quote:
I looked at the matter of exercise as an answer for the "Neolithic Question" when I was studying for my doctoral exams (one year long study session...yuk) ... it would seem to make sense that exercise would be the answer...hunter/gatherers expend a lot of energy looking for/obtaining food and living and that would be the answer to all the problems in the Neolithic, when people became more settled, fat and happy. Well, the answer seems to be yes and no. Some people did less work because of something called "craft specialization", a phenomenon that occurs in the Neolthic, but never before. Some people farmed and farmed at a surplus so that others could then make jewelry, or pottery (another new invention in the neolithic), or be king, or be a priest in the temple, etc. People had exclusive jobs, and some weren't responsible for their own food for the first time, becoming dependent on storage systems and others' abilities to grow a surplus. But people have done calorie expenditure studies (believe it or not, it was a PH.D. dissertation....) on just this question, and it seems that MOST people actually expended MORE energy (worked harder!) during the Neolithic, not the Palaeolithic as it was assumed... there are lots of reasons for this -- living in towns means you are further (much further) away from your food source (if you are a farmer or pastoralist), water sources were often far away meaning alot of walking back and forth to get the water needed for daily chores...maintaining houses/temples/road works/irrigation systems means alot of labor on everyone's part. Food has to be prepared and processed, meaning hours of work for people at home. Before, it was mostly eaten raw.

Sooooo, exercise might be the answer for some for some of this -- temple priests and kings certainly did LESS labor than their palaeolithic forefathers. But for the vast majority of the population, it seems that this isn't the answer.
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#364 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 06:29 PM
 
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OK, I asked this earlier, but nobody responded...c'mon wise healing mamas, someone's got to have at least an opinion on this! GaleForce...did you eat higher carb veggies on your diet?

"On this anti-candida diet I'm doing, only very low carb veggies are allowed, which means carrots, squash, and peas are not allowed. I asked the "founder" of the diet why it mattered whether I eat 20 carbs of squash in a meal or 20 carbs of green beans, cucumber, and onion in a meal. Her basic response was:
Quote:
It's not about the total carb count; it's the kind of
carbs, some of which feed candida. In fact all carbs turn into sugar
in the body, but the ones that are okayed for candida are the lowest
in sugar and carb content. Candida sufferers cannot avoid eating all
carbs. The range of veggies allowed contain low carbs & sugars, so it is
not the total count of carbs that matters. If it didn't matter where
you got your carbs from you could eat fruits, sugar and have milk and
cheese. But that isn't how it works. The higher the carb & sugar
content in a particular food the more it will feed candida and the
sicker you will feel.

This does not make sense to me. I understand that there are different types of sugars, and sugars like those found in dairy, starches, fruits, and sugar/honey/etc can feed yeast. But unless there is something I don't know about the particular sugars in carrots, peas, and squash, I don't understand why I can't eat them as long as I keep my total carb count within the "recommended" range for this diet (so basically her advice is coming across a load of bull)."
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#365 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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Need opinions: should I start DD on solids? She'll be 8 months old in a week. She doesn't have a pincher grasp yet but has all the other markers for solids (and has for months). I'm not entirely sure the pincher grasp is really necessary--if the point is just so they'll be able to feed themselves, well, I think she'll manage just fine as she certainly manages to pick up and eat small bits of whatever is on the floor!

So...since she already has gut issues should I hold off a bit longer, or will the added benefit of being able to directly give her probiotics and/or lacto-fermented foods be worth starting her on solids?
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#366 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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Wow all that talk about diets is so interesting! Its funny how some days you are so into this, and some days you just want to never have heard of it and go have that muffin!

Questions:
I started my first batch of cabbage rejuvelac this a.m. The top has a tight rubber seal (no air). Is that right, or should I let a little air in? The recipe for saurkraut says yes air :

Also, on chicken liver: how much is too much? I havent eaten it since childhood, and had a craving so made a batch of liver and onions, and there' not much left (yum). But I dont know whats in it nutritionally/calorically/fatly (lol) except iron and b6. Any insight? How much could/should/should not I eat per day/week?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cademyn - could sugary veggies have the same type of sugar as fruit/honey/etc? I think so.

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#367 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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caedmyn -- I don't know if what I did was a good idea, but it did work. I did not eat potatoes and in the beginning I did not eat beans. I lost weight so quickly that I added a couple of servings of beans a week. Other than that, I ate all things in the vegetable world. I didn't eat a lot of carrots or peas because I don't usually do so, but I did eat tomatoes.

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#368 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 08:43 PM
 
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Question: I am currently taking two prescription meds that I believe are hurting my gut, and they are no longer necessary so I am working with my doc to get off of them. The soonest I can be off one is six weeks because I need to taper off... I guess, my question is that I can still work on diet and supplementing to begin the process, yes?

I ask because I am a perfectionist and this puts me on edge, lol.
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#369 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:31 PM
 
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selu,
I've been wanting to post to your original questions here. Nak now so I'll write more later. If you are talking about antidpressants, let me just say that I am convinced that my gut healing *cured* my depression.
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#370 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annikate
selu,
I've been wanting to post to your original questions here. Nak now so I'll write more later. If you are talking about antidpressants, let me just say that I am convinced that my gut healing *cured* my depression.
Yep, I am taking a combo of Wellbutrin and Klonopin since April. I am 99.999999% positive that the depression and anxiety are leaky gut/hypothyroid induced. Plus, the meds are making my constipation worse, if that was possible... :
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#371 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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My DH found this article on the NY Times website. You have to sign up for a free account. It touches on gut issues but its focus is on obesity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/ma...09e&ei=5087%0A

We create our own reality.
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#372 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaz
This is such an interesting topic.
We had a similar discussion a few months back in my local Mom's group (www.fnlp.org) and one of the mamas (she's an MDC mama, too, but I don't think she's subbed here) is a doctoral student/archaelogist and posted this:
Has she read Weston Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration?
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ry_wisdom.html

Because he found many healthy societies eating similarly to the Neolithic period that was described: grains and dairy in the 1930's but with no cancer or cavities (well 1% or less cavity rate) or other degenerative diseases. He also studied skeletal remains as well. He travelled to about 40 different native tribes/villages of many different ethnic backgrounds, it was quite extensive. (25 of that 40 was African tribes but they ate differently.) He also studied people of same ethnic/racial background on "modern" foods to show that it was definitely diet and not genes.

P.S. he found no vegan societies that were healthy, this gets a lot of people up in arms. But animals fats were key to health. Whether the fish of the Polynesians or milk fat of the Masai tribe.
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#373 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selu
Yep, I am taking a combo of Wellbutrin and Klonopin since April. I am 99.999999% positive that the depression and anxiety are leaky gut/hypothyroid induced. Plus, the meds are making my constipation worse, if that was possible... :
Absolutely I will answer the same as Annikate. Nutritional deficiencies, including lack of ability to break down and correctly absorb your food messes with your mind and your mood. Also the neurotoxins produced by fermentation of foods and yeast/bacteria. But the issue now is that healing won't help you for a while....

What about amino acid supplementation to help you over this hump as you wean yourself? Gale Force has posted about that before, probably more in Mental Health forum.

Are you taking magnesium for the C.?
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#374 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 09:50 PM
 
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One question Ive had about all of this; so there has been some research showing that NT type diets develop healthier peoples. But did any of the research talk about life expectancy? If the people, or cdavers looked at were all 35 years old, then yeah, their teeth were pretty good and bones, etc. I bet this has come up but since Im a newbie... on top of which, my Dh is an MD. So you can imagine how hard it is to bring any of this up with him. he is very open and alternative minded, but wow, anything I say and he throws all kinds of stats at me (kindly). he's harshin' my gig man!

jess

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#375 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolansmum
My DH found this article on the NY Times website. You have to sign up for a free account. It touches on gut issues but its focus is on obesity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/ma...09e&ei=5087%0A
Quote:
Known collectively as the gut microflora (or microbiota, a term Gordon prefers because it derives from the Greek word bios, for “life”), these microbes have a Star Trek analogue, he says: the Borg Collective, a community of cybernetically enhanced humanoids with functions so intertwined that they operate as a single intelligence, sort of like an ant colony. In its Borglike way, the microflora assumes an extraordinary array of functions on our behalf — functions that we couldn’t manage on our own. It helps create the capillaries that line and nourish the intestines. It produces vitamins, in particular thiamine, pyroxidine and vitamin K. It provides the enzymes necessary to metabolize cholesterol and bile acid. It digests complex plant polysaccharides, the fiber found in grains, fruits and vegetables that would otherwise be indigestible.

And it helps extract calories from the food we eat and helps store those calories in fat cells for later use — which gives them, in effect, a role in determining whether our diets will make us fat or thin.
Yes. You know how some people eat and eat and never gain weight, I'm convinced its gut flora as part of this connection. It was interesting to read about the viral angle I hadn't seen that before.

Elaine G. touched on this a bit too but she approached it from the idea of fermentation producing alcohol type compounds.

http://www.healingcrow.com/scdwisdom.../lwscd_62.html
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#376 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskiasmom
One question Ive had about all of this; so there has been some research showing that NT type diets develop healthier peoples. But did any of the research talk about life expectancy? If the people, or cdavers looked at were all 35 years old, then yeah, their teeth were pretty good and bones, etc. I bet this has come up but since Im a newbie... on top of which, my Dh is an MD. So you can imagine how hard it is to bring any of this up with him. he is very open and alternative minded, but wow, anything I say and he throws all kinds of stats at me (kindly). he's harshin' my gig man!

jess
Well, living to 35 with barely no cavities is quite a feat! Yes he did talk a little about this but I can't remember much. I know older people were included in his stats for cavities in particular. The book was online at one point... get your DH to read it!! The stuff about mental attitude, palate width, and facial shape corresponding to diet is sooooo interesting.

YES, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration is still online. Save it to your hard drive: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html

This book will change your life, I'm not kidding.
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#377 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:13 PM
 
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Jess, read this on liver:

The Liver Files
Recipes and Lore About Our Most Important Sacred Food
http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/liver.html

I'm so jealous you are craving it. I'm doing "horrible" on my New Year's resolution to eat it once/week.
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#378 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caedmyn
Need opinions: should I start DD on solids? She'll be 8 months old in a week. She doesn't have a pincher grasp yet but has all the other markers for solids (and has for months). I'm not entirely sure the pincher grasp is really necessary--if the point is just so they'll be able to feed themselves, well, I think she'll manage just fine as she certainly manages to pick up and eat small bits of whatever is on the floor!

So...since she already has gut issues should I hold off a bit longer, or will the added benefit of being able to directly give her probiotics and/or lacto-fermented foods be worth starting her on solids?
Thats a good question, what is her gut doing exactly?

I'm not sure I'd start her on lacto fermented foods, hmmm. Like what exactly?

Normally I'd recommend ripe bananas, avocado and egg yolk.
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#379 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:17 PM
 
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Caedmyn,

The carb count thing sounds similar to the Body Ecology Diet stuff, have you read that?
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#380 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gale Force
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#381 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:21 PM
 
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Thank you Amanda and Jane for the links. :
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#382 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by milkamama
please talk to me more about the 24 hour yogurt. or point me in the right direction. i have read BTVC, but it was on loan to me and i don't have it in my possession right now. my ds appears to have a dairy allergy/intolerance...is the 24h yogurt vital to his healing??? is a mix of probiotics, following the scd, making life style changes enough to faciltate healing?
Yes, dairy free probiotics are fine, but my mind is that they need to be taken at least 3x/day and more than package directions to see any difference. (But start slow)

There are SCD legal dairy free probiotics recs on www.pecanbread.com

You can also make nut or coconut milk yogurt, recipes there too. I've made the cashew yogurt and it was good but not thick. I'm not sure if there is a coconut milk yogurt recipe there but maybe it was on the Yahoo group? Basically coconut milk and honey for a sugar for the critters to eat. Using ProGurt dairy free yogurt starter from www.GIProHealth.com. (Which is what I use for DS's goat yogurt too.)
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#383 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:29 PM
 
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selu,
re: depression and nutrition, I'm think someone already linked to the thread called "A True Natural Remedy" but if they haven't ask me and I'll post it.

I found that thread after I had completely weaned myself off of lexapro and a lightbulb went off. I didn't relate it to nutrition until I read some of Gale Force's posts over there.

I had already cut my dose in 1/2 before starting this diet. (I thought it was contributing to dd's sleep problems so I cut it in 1/2 to see.) I did okay on 1/2 and then after I was on this gut healing path (and added supplements to my diet), all of a sudden I wondered why I was taking it.

The first couple of weeks were touch and go and dh even asked me to consider taking it again. Gale Force recommended aminos during the *crisis* times and I took those for a couple of weeks and they helped immensely.

Now I don't take the aminos at all. Sometimes I think about it during PMS time though . . .

I truly believe that my depression (which I had been taking something for on and off for YEARS) was solely related to how my body absorbed (or didn't) necessary nutrients. (I was one of those who could eat and eat and not gain weight.) So that only goes to prove my point.
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#384 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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Nature's Way Reuteri rocks.
http://www.naturesway.com/NaturesWay...roductid=15024

I highly recommend it for all people suffering from 'The Big D'. It doesn't have bifidus but it does have potato starch. We are using the version without FOS, the caplets, not the powder. I'm culturing in his yogurt with our regular starter.

DS poop is officially back to solid after our nightmare of going off all supplements, enzymes, etc. for testing. I will never, never, ever, ever do it again!!! Remind me and bash me over the head if I ever even think along those lines!!!!

Except now I'm all paranoid about the fact that it contains traces of milk and I might be doing him unseen harm... I think it might be time for allergy testing and why I was hanging out in the Allergies forum lately but, ahem.

AmyD,
You did RAST tests right?

Firefaery,
What did you do?
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#385 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:32 PM
 
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What aminos did you take Annikate?
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#386 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:35 PM
 
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Jane,
I did RAST w/dd2.

Oh, and about reuteri: I FORGOT! I've been giving it to dd1 for the last 3 days and her poopies are getting better too! (Except I left it on the counter last night so now I have to go buy some more tomorrow. )

I got the aminos from Kirkmans. It's the powder. I mix it in o.j. That's an amazing supplement.
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#387 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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So tell me more about the RAST, how many things did you test?

That is the one that has a rating scale right?

How much blood did it require?
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#388 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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I don't think the Reuteri would expire in a night on the counter unless your house was 120 degrees... after all yogurt lasts at room temp. that is why people originally made yogurt before refrigeration!

The fridge is just for long term storage to ensure it lasts several months/years or whenever expiration dates is.
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#389 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:39 PM
 
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Oh, and another thing I wanted to tell you mamas,
I found a naturopath locally (well, about an hour away) and have an appt. for dd2 on Wed.)

Her sleeping is still awful and unless I get to the bottom of things I'm going to end up in the hospital myself.

She's been waking at night with a jolt and a scream as if someone is sticking her with a knife. It scares me. I mean, it makes me look around the room to see if there's really something there - - that's the type of waking she's been doing lately.

She also puked last night around midnight and then was fine. Now a low grade fever. Must be a virus.

Anyway, this doctor is seeing friends of ours and she's knowledgeable in metal toxicity so I'm really looking forward to talking to her. Plus she has a lab on site and I've been wanting dd's thyroid tested anyway.
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#390 of 861 Old 08-13-2006, 10:41 PM
 
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Jane~ we tested several ways. The lab test I found to be most accurate was Immunolabs. I think that's what you're asking-I've been gone so long I have no idea where you are. Doesn't sound good, though. Feel free to email me if you want more info-or we can of course talk here! I just don't want to be redundant.

Where did you find the article about infant gut flora? I need to give it to someone. I need info on strains of probiotics in an EBF infant...do you remember it? I haven't been able to put my finger on it.
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