THE Adrenal Fatigue Thread - Page 76 - Mothering Forums

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#2251 of 2287 Old 10-07-2009, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by dosmilagros View Post
I read Metasequoia's first entry in this thread and have contacted Dr. Neville at the Clymer Healing center. I liked him and he seemed to believe that there is indeed hope, but I'm just feeling quite discouraged. How does one go about improving this situation with 2 young kids (ie. can NEVER sleep between 7-9 as all the books say to), have a great deal of stress (mostly marital) and all the regular stuff.

Thanks.
Dr. Neville is GREAT! I saw him yesterday & he said that he got another patient from this thread.

Anxiety was the first symptom to go away for me & mine was crippling. I just noticed one day that it was gone! It was in the fall, after I had begun treatment that spring. It is slow-going because we're raising little people & that takes a lot out of us. I also understand the marital stress & have been through hell with it. Custody threats left & right, emotional abuse, but we lately have reached a place where we've been amicable. I just hope it lasts.

I think treating the adrenals will first help you feel better, then you'll actually be able to handle stress better so every little stress won't devastate you - the way it's supposed to work.

It's a long road, but so worth it.

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Originally Posted by AdoptChina View Post
I haven't made it through the entire thread yet (Im trying...its looong lol) but Id like to order some saliva tests-----adrenal and hormone (think I may have adrenal fatigue and/or estrogen dominance)

Should I order these myself or have a Dr do it? Where is the best place to buy them?

thanks!
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
A couple (several?) pages ago, we talked a bit about testing, the cheapest I could see (w/o a doctor, no idea what rates a doctor has access to, may be cheaper, may be more) was still through Canary Club. You'd want the one that mentions 4x/day testing, it used to be about $99 but I think it went up to around $169? Check a few pages ago for details, someone included the name of the test.
I was at Clymer yesterday & an ASI through Diagnos-Techs is still $99. You can order the ASI kit directly from Diagnos-Techs & you'd just need a doctor's signature on the enclosed form in order to send in the samples. They'd send both you & your doc a copy of the results. From there, if you wanted, you could fax the results to Dr. Neville at Clymer & he can work with you over the phone.

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#2252 of 2287 Old 10-07-2009, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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HPA is, I think, hypothalamus-pituitary axis, if you google HPA axis, you'll learn more than I know.
At my appt yesterday, I mentioned my brain fog when I go off the pregnenolone (which I did because I ran out & was waiting for my appt - which turned out to be a good thing because I did a male hormone panel yesterday & the pregnenolone would have skewed the results) & Dr. Neville gave me something he recently started taking himself called P-100. Dr. Poesnecker had done some research on it & I think Dr. Neville had just come across it. Anyway, it has to do with the HPA, I believe, and is supposed to help with brain fog & memory.

I'm trying to decide how to test it out since I now have a new supply of pregnenolone which Dr. Neville says I need to be on. I guess I'll start the pregnenolone today & after a couple of weeks, I'll add the P-100 to see if I notice any change.

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#2253 of 2287 Old 10-09-2009, 06:04 PM
 
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at what point would it be ok to do thyroid support? how would you know if it was too soon? i've been doing adrenal support for almost a year. i had my thyroid tested and it all came back normal, but my bbt was so low (96.7 pre-o) that a couple months ago i began taking this. It contains whole freeze dried Thyroid, Adrenal, Pituitary, Thymus, and Spleen Tissue from grass fed cows. i'm feeling good and my temps went up half a degree the first month, and seem to be up another half degree this month. this morning my temp was 97.8 and that's pre-o!! I would just like to know what the symptoms would be if this thyroid support is too soon and my adrenals are going to get overstressed again?

eta: i did not ever have the saliva test done, but going by my symptoms i was stage 2-3.

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#2254 of 2287 Old 10-09-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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at what point would it be ok to do thyroid support? how would you know if it was too soon? i've been doing adrenal support for almost a year. i had my thyroid tested and it all came back normal, but my bbt was so low (96.7 pre-o) that a couple months ago i began taking this. It contains whole freeze dried Thyroid, Adrenal, Pituitary, Thymus, and Spleen Tissue from grass fed cows. i'm feeling good and my temps went up half a degree the first month, and seem to be up another half degree this month. this morning my temp was 97.8 and that's pre-o!! I would just like to know what the symptoms would be if this thyroid support is too soon and my adrenals are going to get overstressed again?
Have you considered, alternatively, taking a good iodine supp and supporting vitamins and minerals for thyroid production? Selenium, zinc, iodine, vitamin C are what come to mind immediately though I'm sure someone else will chime in with other necessities.. I know i'm missing one of the B vites..

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#2255 of 2287 Old 10-09-2009, 06:39 PM
 
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Have you considered, alternatively, taking a good iodine supp and supporting vitamins and minerals for thyroid production? Selenium, zinc, iodine, vitamin C are what come to mind immediately though I'm sure someone else will chime in with other necessities.. I know i'm missing one of the B vites..
i have not taken iodine, i will look into that. i am taking sea salt, liver, cod liver oil, vitamin c, selenium, zinc, magnesium. the liver i've only been serious about taking for the past 6 months, everything else i've been taking for a year or more.

i feel good, i just wondered what the symptoms would be if there were any. it's doing something for me, it's obviously having an effect on my body temp. i'm kind of surprised it's having such a big effect. i was taking dr ron's organ delight which i found helpful but just too expensive. then i ran across the thyroid/etc blend at wilderness family naturals, though they don't seem to sell that one anymore.

eta: i really do feel GOOD. i've been slowly perking up over the past year, but the past couple months i've really been feeling well, normal. my energy doesn't totally crash mid-afternoon. i get tired sometimes, but i can still function even then. and i'm happy and enjoying my kids so much. my sex drive is still low, well not what it was prekids for sure. but i actually enjoy it when i have it, which is an improvement.

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#2256 of 2287 Old 10-09-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Metasequoia View Post
At my appt yesterday, I mentioned my brain fog when I go off the pregnenolone (which I did because I ran out & was waiting for my appt - which turned out to be a good thing because I did a male hormone panel yesterday & the pregnenolone would have skewed the results) & Dr. Neville gave me something he recently started taking himself called P-100. Dr. Poesnecker had done some research on it & I think Dr. Neville had just come across it. Anyway, it has to do with the HPA, I believe, and is supposed to help with brain fog & memory.

I'm trying to decide how to test it out since I now have a new supply of pregnenolone which Dr. Neville says I need to be on. I guess I'll start the pregnenolone today & after a couple of weeks, I'll add the P-100 to see if I notice any change.
Do you have a link to the p-100? I could use some memory & brian fog help.

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#2257 of 2287 Old 10-10-2009, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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at what point would it be ok to do thyroid support? how would you know if it was too soon? i've been doing adrenal support for almost a year. i had my thyroid tested and it all came back normal, but my bbt was so low (96.7 pre-o) that a couple months ago i began taking this. It contains whole freeze dried Thyroid, Adrenal, Pituitary, Thymus, and Spleen Tissue from grass fed cows. i'm feeling good and my temps went up half a degree the first month, and seem to be up another half degree this month. this morning my temp was 97.8 and that's pre-o!! I would just like to know what the symptoms would be if this thyroid support is too soon and my adrenals are going to get overstressed again?

eta: i did not ever have the saliva test done, but going by my symptoms i was stage 2-3.
This looks interesting. Dr. Neville asked me to look at Dr. Rind's temp chart online & start taking my temp every day to check my thyroid. I need to buy a thermometer...

But I always have cold hands & feet & with this new thinning hair, I have to wonder if it's my thyroid (though Dr. Neville did say that adrenal patients often lose hair down the middle, from front to back..)

I would think that if you're adrenals were taking a hit because of this supp., you'd feel more severe symptoms, like low BP, possible dizziness, more exhaustion, etc. Those are my symptoms when I know I've over-stressed my adrenals, plus a greater sensitivity to carbs/sugar.

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Do you have a link to the p-100? I could use some memory & brian fog help.
I don't. It must be something that Dr. Neville bought a huge container of because he gave me 50 or 100 pills in a matchbox like box with P-100 written on top. I can ask him the full name for you. I haven't started taking it yet because I want to be on the pregnenolone for a while first just so I can tell if the P-100 is helping. Have you tried pregnenolone? I'm like a whole new person on it. Better memory, better able to find the words I want to use, less miss-speaking, etc.

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#2258 of 2287 Old 10-10-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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I have not tried pregnalone. I have a followup with my ND next week. I'll ask her about it. The other things we tried seemed not to help.

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#2259 of 2287 Old 10-10-2009, 09:02 PM
 
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Metaseqoia - I wonder if he (Neville) was referring to me - I mentioned this thread! Did you take any glandular support (sorry if it's been mentioned, I don't recall). I'm wondering about the Mil Andregan - I've been many references to it elsewhere and I think Neville recommends it. Is that where there is actual adrenal tissue? Are there any concerns about using it?

It does sound like a long road, but I"m up for it and willing to do whatever I need to do to stop this assault on my adrenals. I already have hashi's and gluten sensitivty and endometriosis, so I don't need any more stress on my body! I've been working with my acupuncturist for the past week or so on stress, as well as getting back into my mind-body relaxation tapes. It's starting to help. My biggest problem right now is getting sleep. My 2 kids have been sleeping with me but they really interrupt my sleep (especially my 3 yr old who makes a "moaning" noise periodically through the night. Now I lay awake waiting for his next moaning incident and I can't sleep). We're working on getting them into their own rooms (am trying to have them share, but his noisiness wakes my daughter up). My older one (5 in December) has never slept alone and really hates it, so it's really hard to make this transition when I am completely sleep-deprived, have a hard time falling asleep, staying asleep and going back to sleep. I'm hoping we can get something figured out so I can start gettign some sleep. When I got 4 straight hours on Thursday night, I felt almost like a new person on Friday. Can't even imagine what 8 straight hrs would be like!
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#2260 of 2287 Old 10-11-2009, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have not tried pregnalone. I have a followup with my ND next week. I'll ask her about it. The other things we tried seemed not to help.
As soon as we got my saliva results back, almost 3 years ago, Dr. Neville started me on pregnenolone & Mil Adregen immediately. I think these two things helped immensely - that & getting rid of caffeine.

The pregnenolone is *awesome* for brain fog. Give it a week or two, but I think you'll notice a difference (& check with your doc first.)

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Originally Posted by dosmilagros View Post
Metaseqoia - I wonder if he (Neville) was referring to me - I mentioned this thread! Did you take any glandular support (sorry if it's been mentioned, I don't recall). I'm wondering about the Mil Andregan - I've been many references to it elsewhere and I think Neville recommends it. Is that where there is actual adrenal tissue? Are there any concerns about using it?

It does sound like a long road, but I"m up for it and willing to do whatever I need to do to stop this assault on my adrenals. I already have hashi's and gluten sensitivty and endometriosis, so I don't need any more stress on my body! I've been working with my acupuncturist for the past week or so on stress, as well as getting back into my mind-body relaxation tapes. It's starting to help. My biggest problem right now is getting sleep. My 2 kids have been sleeping with me but they really interrupt my sleep (especially my 3 yr old who makes a "moaning" noise periodically through the night. Now I lay awake waiting for his next moaning incident and I can't sleep). We're working on getting them into their own rooms (am trying to have them share, but his noisiness wakes my daughter up). My older one (5 in December) has never slept alone and really hates it, so it's really hard to make this transition when I am completely sleep-deprived, have a hard time falling asleep, staying asleep and going back to sleep. I'm hoping we can get something figured out so I can start gettign some sleep. When I got 4 straight hours on Thursday night, I felt almost like a new person on Friday. Can't even imagine what 8 straight hrs would be like!
Yes, I've been taking Mil Adregen for almost 3 years. I'm up to 2 tablets in the morning, 2 at lunchtime & I'm supposed to take 2 at dinnertime as well, but I don't because I'm afraid it will be too stimulating - but I've never tried it. I should because I know my body needs it. Yes, it has raw adrenal tissue, among other glandular tissues. I also try to eat raw beef liver as much as possible & this gives me instant energy. All of the B vitamins & A are power foods for the adrenals. I have no concerns about taking it & Dr. Neville obviously thinks it's safe.

So you're off gluten, right? Gluten allergy seems to be really common in adrenal fatigue - hard to say which came first. I'm hoping that healing my adrenals will heal my food allergies - though I'll never eat gluten again.

Do you think your son might have sleep apnea? Not to sound alarmist, but it could be dangerous. Have you mentioned it to Dr. Neville? If I ever bring something up about my kids, he usually has suggestions on how to help. Does it wake your son? It obviously affects your daughter, which isn't good for her adrenals, in the long run.

What if you let her sleep in the other room alone & you slept with your son (since he obviously still need that security) & you used some kind of ear plugs? Do you use any kind of white noise? We sleep with a fan just for the noise...

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#2261 of 2287 Old 10-11-2009, 06:16 PM
 
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I would think that if you're adrenals were taking a hit because of this supp., you'd feel more severe symptoms, like low BP, possible dizziness, more exhaustion, etc. Those are my symptoms when I know I've over-stressed my adrenals, plus a greater sensitivity to carbs/sugar.
well i have not had my symptoms worsen. i am noticing my bbt is rather erratic the past week or two. the day i posted my temp was 97.8, the next day it was 96.9, today 97.3. according to dr. rind erratic temps is adrenal fatigue. my eating is way off this past month, cause we're remodeling our kitchen. so that is not helping.

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#2262 of 2287 Old 10-11-2009, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hrm, I guess that could be a sign of adrenal stress if your temps were previously more even - were they?

OT: I hate when I type "you're" for "your" & get quoted on it.

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#2263 of 2287 Old 10-12-2009, 12:28 AM
 
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yes they (my temps) were, i guess the more uneven temps is what got me wondering if it was too soon. the same company makes an adrenal organ capsule that i'd like to try. i think i'll back off the thyroid for now. and try again later.

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#2264 of 2287 Old 10-13-2009, 11:41 AM
 
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I'm still trying to browse through this! Wondering if virgin coconut oil has been discussed yet?
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PB, I'm thinking first-born gets more toxin dumps. Last-born gets least nutrients. Where the balance shifts We are meant to procreate and nurse.


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#2266 of 2287 Old 10-13-2009, 04:37 PM
 
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As soon as we got my saliva results back, almost 3 years ago, Dr. Neville started me on pregnenolone & Mil Adregen immediately. I think these two things helped immensely - that & getting rid of caffeine.

The pregnenolone is *awesome* for brain fog. Give it a week or two, but I think you'll notice a difference (& check with your doc first.)



Yes, I've been taking Mil Adregen for almost 3 years. I'm up to 2 tablets in the morning, 2 at lunchtime & I'm supposed to take 2 at dinnertime as well, but I don't because I'm afraid it will be too stimulating - but I've never tried it. I should because I know my body needs it. Yes, it has raw adrenal tissue, among other glandular tissues. I also try to eat raw beef liver as much as possible & this gives me instant energy. All of the B vitamins & A are power foods for the adrenals. I have no concerns about taking it & Dr. Neville obviously thinks it's safe.

So you're off gluten, right? Gluten allergy seems to be really common in adrenal fatigue - hard to say which came first. I'm hoping that healing my adrenals will heal my food allergies - though I'll never eat gluten again.

Do you think your son might have sleep apnea? Not to sound alarmist, but it could be dangerous. Have you mentioned it to Dr. Neville? If I ever bring something up about my kids, he usually has suggestions on how to help. Does it wake your son? It obviously affects your daughter, which isn't good for her adrenals, in the long run.

What if you let her sleep in the other room alone & you slept with your son (since he obviously still need that security) & you used some kind of ear plugs? Do you use any kind of white noise? We sleep with a fan just for the noise...
I actually think we're making progress on the sleep issue with the kids so I'm feeling a little hopeful about that. Had a bad night last night, though, with my daughter up with a fever and a croup-y cough.

I'm starting to get quite anxious about my situation. I've joined the adrenal fatigue yahoo group and there's a woman on that who seems to know quite a lot and she has me a bit concerned. My ACTH came back high in bloodwork at my regular endo appt for my thyroid (they decided to test ACTH and cortisol). So that sent me to other doctors for the saliva testing. I believe that it is due to the strain on the adrenals and the pituitary is working extra hard to get the adrenals to do what they need to do. But my endo wants to test for Cushings and if that's negative, then other things. I don't know if I want to do the dexamethasone suppression test (for Cushings) because I'm concerned of artificially suppressing an already struggling system. I'm trying to get into another doctor for a second opinion on that but it's going to take time. As soon as my saliva tests are back, I want to start treatment, but people are starting to tell me that I need to do this testing first to rule things out. Like I said, I'm scared of the testing and its affect on my system. Has anyone else done this? I had been hoping to get advice from Dr. Neville on this but he hasn't responded to my email that I sent him with the health history that he requested.

I'm VERY anxious about my situation. I had been in a decent place for a few days but now I'm back to being in a bad place....
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#2267 of 2287 Old 10-14-2009, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I had been hoping to get advice from Dr. Neville on this but he hasn't responded to my email that I sent him with the health history that he requested.

I'm VERY anxious about my situation. I had been in a decent place for a few days but now I'm back to being in a bad place....
It sometimes takes him a week or so to respond to me, I assume he's just really busy. You could always call - Veronica a the desk is really nice & understanding. you can explain your situation (that your doc is pushing for this invasive test) & that you'd like to run it by Dr. Neville first.

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#2268 of 2287 Old 10-14-2009, 03:42 PM
 
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I actually just hung up with him. He's very calming. I'm struggling with figuring out which doctor I want to be the "lead" doctor on this. I definitely like him but I always worry about how to know if his way is the "right" way or best way for me. (Can you tell I've had some bad doctor experiences!). It also makes me a little nervous to never actually meet him and him me. But he definitely seems to know what he's talking about and has a lot of patients with similar issues. He definitely gives me hope, which is what I need right about now......
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#2269 of 2287 Old 10-19-2009, 12:51 PM
 
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I'm curious-- for those taking pregnenolone, what dose are you using? My dhea is very low, and I'm on RX topical, but wondering if oral pregnenolone might be a better choice?? Or maybe oral dhea..... ?
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I've found Dr. Wilson's products to be very helpful (he's the man who coined the term and the diagnosis for "adrenal fatigue" - http://www.adrenalfatigue.org

Additionally this e-book has helped me out a lot:
http://www.seriousstressreduction.com
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#2271 of 2287 Old 10-21-2009, 06:14 AM
 
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Woe... I have only made it to page 7 so far... Lots of great information.

I am waiting for my saliva test results right now. Since I have hypo, I suppose I likely have AF as well.

Since my hypo ws found due to secondary infertility, we have had to use nfp until my levels get better. (Tough, when we hve hoped for a baby for years.) Could anyone give me an idea of what will happen if I indeed have AF. Does it mean more nfp while I take cortisone or what.... From what I understand, many people take a year until they can wean of f of the cortisone, and I am not getting any younger... This is really messing with my head right now.

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#2272 of 2287 Old 10-21-2009, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm curious-- for those taking pregnenolone, what dose are you using? My dhea is very low, and I'm on RX topical, but wondering if oral pregnenolone might be a better choice?? Or maybe oral dhea..... ?
I take 60mg/day, orally. My DHEA is low too - a "1" on the Diagnos-Techs scale. I had run out & just restarted a couple of weeks ago.
Supplemental DHEA has the risk of causing masculanizing effects. Pregnenolone is much less likely to cause this.

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Woe... I have only made it to page 7 so far... Lots of great information.

I am waiting for my saliva test results right now. Since I have hypo, I suppose I likely have AF as well.

Since my hypo ws found due to secondary infertility, we have had to use nfp until my levels get better. (Tough, when we hve hoped for a baby for years.) Could anyone give me an idea of what will happen if I indeed have AF. Does it mean more nfp while I take cortisone or what.... From what I understand, many people take a year until they can wean of f of the cortisone, and I am not getting any younger... This is really messing with my head right now.
I wouldn't recommend taking cortisone, it's just a bandaid approach & can really mess up your system. It can also be VERY hard to wean off of. Supporting your adrenals with supplements, by eliminating stress & by nurturing your body are more efficient methods of healing your adrenals.

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#2273 of 2287 Old 10-21-2009, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I did a Diagnos-Techs male hormone panel a couple of weeks ago & the results are as follows:

DHEA - 1 - Depressed - Reference range: 3-10 ng/ml

Progesterone - 166 - Reference range: 100-300 pg/ml

Androstenedione - 380 - Reference range: 125-274 pg/ml (!!)

Testosterone - 16 - Reference range: 5-7 pg/ml - 8-20 pg/ml (marked as "normal")

Estrone - 12 - Reference range: 30-58 pg/ml

DHT - 15 - Reference range: 15-75 pg/ml

My results fall into these reference ranges according to age:

Testosterone (male): >70 years (15-45 pg/ml)

Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (Male): not on the chart - closest range is 22-72 pg/ml for ages 30-39 yrs. (I guess that means mine isn't abnormally high.)

Androstenedione (Male > 15 years): 351-450 pg/ml is the "Borderline High" range - normal is 151-350 pg/ml - for a male over 15 yrs. Mine was 380 pg/ml - so mine is high even for a man.

Androstenedione (Female > 15 years): 275 - 400 pg/ml is the "Borderline High" range, normal is 125-274 pg/ml for a female over 15 years of age. Again, mine was 380 pg/ml.

Estrone (Female): Mine was 12, clearly VERY low.

38-68 pg/ml - 40-49 yrs
26-64 pg/ml - 50-59 yrs
35-65 pg/ml - > 60 yrs

I tested on cycle day 21, which was when the test is supposed to be taken. My cycle has been 31 days almost like clockwork & here we are on CD 36 with no period yet. I hope this hasn't thrown off my test.

SO, I haven't spoken to my ND yet, but I'm not sure what this all means. We did the male hormone panel for a few reasons. I tend to be fairly hairy - have been since my pre-teens. Recently my hair began thinning (not noticeably to anyone else) right at the front of my scalp, only in the middle. High levels of Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, can cause thinning and baldness. That's what's to blame for male pattern baldness in men & in women - usually with PCOS. But my DHT doesn't appear to be high.

My estrone appears to be quite low - not sure how this is supposed to relate to where I was in my cycle, but it's not even in any of the reference ranges.

My Androstenedione is outrageously high. I don't know what this means. Here's what Androstenedione does in the body:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Androstenedione (also known as 4-androstenedione) is a 19-carbon steroid hormone produced in the adrenal glands and the gonads as an intermediate step in the biochemical pathway that produces the androgen testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol.

Androstenedione is the common precursor of male and female sex hormones. Some androstenedione is also secreted into the plasma, and may be converted in peripheral tissues to testosterone and estrogens.

Androstenedione originates either from the conversion of dehydroepiandrosterone or from 17-hydroxyprogesterone. Conversion of dehydroepiandrosterone to androstenedione requires 3Beta Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. 17-hydroxyprogesterone, on the other hand, requires 17,20 lyase for its synthesis. Thus, both reactions that produce androstenedione directly or indirectly depend on 17,20 lyase.

Androstenedione is further converted to either testosterone or estrogen. Conversion of androstenedione to testosterone requires the enzyme 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, while conversion of androstenedione to estrogen (e.g. estrone and estradiol) requires the enzyme aromatase.

The production of adrenal androstenedione is governed by ACTH, whereas production of gonadal androstenedione is under control by gonadotropins. In premenopausal women, the adrenal glands and ovaries each produce about half of the total androstendione (about 3 mg/day). After menopause, androstenedione production is about halved, primarily due to the reduction of the steroid secreted by the ovary. Nevertheless, androstenedione is the principal steroid produced by the postmenopausal ovary.

In females, androstenedione is released into the blood by theca cells. The function of this is to provide androstenedione substrate for estrogen production in granulosa cells, since these cells lack 17,20 lyase required for androstenedione. Similarly, theca cells lack the enzyme aromatase required to make estrogens themselves. Thus, theca cells and granulosa cells work together to form estrogen.
And I found this about high androstenedione in women:

Quote:
Excessive androgen production is a universal finding in PCOS and studies have demonstrated that theca cells from PCO ovaries produce significantly more androstenedione than theca cells from normal follicles; moreover, higher androstenedione concentrations have been found in PCO follicles than in normal follicles.
Hyperinsulinaemia and insulin resistance are important PCOS features, and at the cellular level, insulin has specific actions on steroidogenesis which are effected through its own receptor.
- http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ull/16/10/2061

And this:

Quote:
In women, high levels of androstenedione (47-100% above normal) are generally found in hirsutism, mostly in combination with other androgens as testosterone and DHEA-S. Androstenedione overproduction is due to ovarian dysfunction or maybe of adrenal origin.
- http://www.genwaybio.com/product_inf...ucts_id=205044

Also listed, I've read that high levels of androstenedione can be caused by adreno-cortical tumors and adrenal hyperplasia. Ugh, this is when I should stop Googling.

I'm confused because my testosterone isn't really high even though my adrostenedione is. I think that the high level of androstenedione could explain my sensitivity to carbs & sugar (insulin response.) Sounds like a PCOS issue.

I hope my ND has calming things to say about this.

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#2274 of 2287 Old 10-21-2009, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, and Androstenedione is used by body builders & athletes to build muscle and I seem to be able to build A LOT of muscle in a very short amount of time. I have a ton of definition, especially in my arms & I only started working out early this summer.

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#2275 of 2287 Old 10-22-2009, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted this in H&H too:

I was rereading Chronic Fatigue Unmasked 2000 by Dr. Poesnecker (who trained my ND) & this paragraph stuck with me:

Quote:
It is important to make a distinction between the use of endocrine hormones and endocrine substances. Even these early investigators realized that if the body is given a hormone which is produced by an endocrine gland, the gland, due to the natural functioning of the body's homeostatic mechanism, will stop producing its own hormone as long as the external hormone is being supplied. If this process is carried out long enough, the gland involved will actually atrophy, and eventually it stops producing hormones. If, on the other hand, a patient is given glandular substance that is free from hormones but contains the other nutrient elements of the gland intact, this substance acts as a food to build and regenerate the gland, so that it may once again be able to regain proper functioning on its own.

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#2276 of 2287 Old 10-22-2009, 11:54 PM
 
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so the conversion goes like the sketch in my ugly picture at https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1907016/steroidhormones.png
(a more scientific view at http://www.genome.jp/kegg-bin/show_p...ko00140+C00410)

adrenal hyperplasia simply means that the adrenals aren't functioning properly to kick out the hormones that they govern. that is, there are some congenital hyperplasias that inhibit the hydroxylases (in the cytochrome P450 complex) in this pathway. cholesterol is a huge 27-carbon molecule, and it takes some chopping to whittle it down to the 18-carbon compound like estradiol. examples of the most commonly known ones are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congeni...al_hyperplasia

(and since these are mutations, there are "easy" genetic screens/tests that can be done to detect those mutations)

recall also that the adrenal gland kicks out 3 different steroid hormones: cortisol (from the middle layer of the adrenal cortex), aldosterone (from the outer layer of the adrenal cortex), and the androgens (from the inner and middle layers of the adrenal cortex). androgens are converted to the highly potent hormones out in the peripheral tissues, not in the adrenal gland.

Metasequoia - it seems like there must be a dysfunction in the metabolism of androstenedione, particularly leading towards estrone (http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/ko/ko00150.html) - ergo, there could be a blockage in the enzyme function inhibiting the breakdown. you could have overactive enzymes that cause it to break down into adrenosterone or 3-glucuronide instead of heading along to estrone. (or you could have an underactive enzyme that breaks it down into estrone)

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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#2277 of 2287 Old 10-23-2009, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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bluets, I love you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
Metasequoia - it seems like there must be a dysfunction in the metabolism of androstenedione, particularly leading towards estrone
This was my first though when I saw my results. Yay, my brain works!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
ergo, there could be a blockage in the enzyme function inhibiting the breakdown. you could have overactive enzymes that cause it to break down into adrenosterone or 3-glucuronide instead of heading along to estrone. (or you could have an underactive enzyme that breaks it down into estrone)
How would one fix this dysfuntion?

Thank you SO much for explaining this to me.

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#2278 of 2287 Old 10-23-2009, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
so the conversion goes like the sketch in my ugly picture at https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1907016/steroidhormones.png
(a more scientific view at http://www.genome.jp/kegg-bin/show_p...ko00140+C00410)

adrenal hyperplasia simply means that the adrenals aren't functioning properly to kick out the hormones that they govern. that is, there are some congenital hyperplasias that inhibit the hydroxylases (in the cytochrome P450 complex) in this pathway. cholesterol is a huge 27-carbon molecule, and it takes some chopping to whittle it down to the 18-carbon compound like estradiol. examples of the most commonly known ones are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congeni...al_hyperplasia

(and since these are mutations, there are "easy" genetic screens/tests that can be done to detect those mutations)

recall also that the adrenal gland kicks out 3 different steroid hormones: cortisol (from the middle layer of the adrenal cortex), aldosterone (from the outer layer of the adrenal cortex), and the androgens (from the inner and middle layers of the adrenal cortex). androgens are converted to the highly potent hormones out in the peripheral tissues, not in the adrenal gland.

Metasequoia - it seems like there must be a dysfunction in the metabolism of androstenedione, particularly leading towards estrone (http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/ko/ko00150.html) - ergo, there could be a blockage in the enzyme function inhibiting the breakdown. you could have overactive enzymes that cause it to break down into adrenosterone or 3-glucuronide instead of heading along to estrone. (or you could have an underactive enzyme that breaks it down into estrone)
So I've been reading on Wiki from your link & it seems that this enzyme dysfunction could be from a congenital mutation. And of course, the only treatment listed is steroids.

What bothers me more is that Dd2 seems like she could have also inherited this. She's 6.5 yrs old now & ever since she was maybe 2 or 3 yrs old, she's had nose hairs, a slight dark mustache & is definitely more muscular than her older sister. her leg hair is also darker & thicker than what seems more common.

I've always felt that Dd1 was the one who got the short stick as far as adrenal health, but maybe Dd2 is even worse off.

I need to know that there is a more holistic treatment than glucocorticoids.

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#2279 of 2287 Old 10-23-2009, 10:44 AM
 
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Hey guys,
I am jumping in here because I read some posts about people using Diagnos-Techs for panels. I am going to get a stool test for my son, and I am trying to decide between Genova or Diagnos-Techs. I know this is different, but does anybody have an opinion on that?
Thanks!
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#2280 of 2287 Old 10-23-2009, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momofmine View Post
Hey guys,
I am jumping in here because I read some posts about people using Diagnos-Techs for panels. I am going to get a stool test for my son, and I am trying to decide between Genova or Diagnos-Techs. I know this is different, but does anybody have an opinion on that?
Thanks!
I don't have any experience with stool testing, but I think I've heard good things about Great Smokies Lab for this. (?)

ETA: correction, I think I'm thinking of Entero-Labs for stool testing...

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