Healing The Gut Tribe! - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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#301 of 457 Old 10-02-2008, 07:25 PM
 
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but that's irrelevant if they have been exposed through mom's breastmilk from birth. If mom's gut was leaking that whole time and antigens have already formed then they are already sensitized.

What I'm saying is that those more isolated people wouldn't have had the gut issues MOM has here.
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#302 of 457 Old 10-02-2008, 07:30 PM
 
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CONCLUSION: These results suggest that probiotic bacteria may promote endogenous barrier mechanisms in patients with atopic dermatitis and food allergy, and by alleviating intestinal inflammation, may act as a useful tool in the treatment of food allergy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9042042Pat

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#303 of 457 Old 10-02-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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I understand that, but I am simply saying I don't buy it for dairy allergic kiddos. I can see how it might be *possible* for other allergies, but kiddos who are already sensitized having an inflammatory response, potentially with bleeding and excess mucus production may not have the same response at all. I don't buy for one second (and this is just me) that it will address the inflammation that is a RESULT of dairy across the board.

I had a kid that couldn't handle homeopathic remedies or mom eating a bit of butter (raw and pastured butter) without bloody green stool and two days of screaming and what I'm saying is that kefir wasn't likely to help in that instance.
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#304 of 457 Old 10-02-2008, 07:51 PM
 
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I heartily agree that our guts are crap for intestinal health. What I keep seeing is that probiotics *treat* by alleviating intestinal inflammation.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...obiotics2.aspx

Probiotics in primary prevention of atopic disease:
A randomised placebo-controlled trial
The notion of probiotics use in primary prevention of atopic disease was based on their ability to reverse increased intestinal permeability24--characteristic of children with atopic eczema and food allergy.25 Probiotics also enhance gut-specific IgA responses,24 which are often defective in children with food allergy.26 They also help to promote gut barrier function and restore normal gut microecology,15 alterations in which have been shown in allergic individuals.27
http://www.health-report.co.uk/probi...ic_disease.htm


Yet, even when gastrointestinal permeability is increased by food antigens, probiotics like Lactobacillus GG can counteract these permeability disorders
.
Conclusion In this study a combination of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Bifidobacteria lactis improved Atopic Dermatitis only in food sensitized children.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


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#305 of 457 Old 10-02-2008, 07:57 PM
 
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I think that's true, I just wouldn't for any amount of money give them in a dairy base (nevermind what it's cultured on) to an allergic infant that had been presenting with signs already.

I am very pro-probiotic, I am not pro-kefir at 4-6 months. Not in this country anyway!
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#306 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 11:15 AM
 
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:

I just read the discussions on probiotics

I am about 29 weeks and about a month ago had to take abx due to really bad tooth abcess, I didn't get yeast or feel any bad reactions to it but I am concerned since my 2 youngest have food allergies and I think it was due to gut issues with me the mama. I have been supplementing with different probiotics, drinking kombucha, and eating my own homemade yogurt and fermented veggies...although I am abit tired lazy and my tastes are a little off lately and it seems the only thing I really "feel" like is the store bought strawberry kombucha by synergy, I think it used to be g.t. dave or something.
What are your thoughts on this since it is store bought and not cultured at home ???? anyone?/ is it still worth drinking it???

btw, this pregnancy I am gf, stay away from peanut butter, eat as much tf as I can stomach or have the energy to make and have been for the past 3-4 yrs, and hoping it will make a difference this time around
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#307 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 11:25 AM
 
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What are your thoughts on this since it is store bought and not cultured at home ???? anyone?/ is it still worth drinking it???

btw, this pregnancy I am gf, stay away from peanut butter, eat as much tf as I can stomach or have the energy to make and have been for the past 3-4 yrs, and hoping it will make a difference this time around
You may find more info in this old thread "how not to have an allergic child": http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=471144

You might try making juice kefir. It is tasty and easy with milk kefir grains. Just 1:1 juice (100% juice) to water (chlorine-free), plus kefir grains; sit 12-24 hours on the counter~ to taste. This MDC mama at this link has water kefir and juice kefir grains: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/shop/

I'd keep up the kombucha in any way you can, and yogurt (goat's milk preferred), as often as possible. Also, are you getting magnesium supplementation, it is often depleted in our diets and essential for immune system and hormone support.


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#308 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 12:03 PM
 
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I would also keep folate rather high, focus on B vitamins in general as well as A and D. There is alot of info emerging about the importance of these in the whole allergy field.
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#309 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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Are any of you gut healers vegetarians? Bone broth sounds very nutritious and healing, but I am wondering about other ways to heal that don't involve meat.

We currently take probiotics, CLO, and may start with enzymes soon.

ETA: When we do drink dairy, it's raw.

We are also in the middle of a TED.

I have searched this Healing the Gut Tribe thread with the keyword "vegetarian" but did not come up with much...

TIA

Erin, mommy to ds April 2004 and dd : February 2007
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#310 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 05:39 PM
 
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A lot of gut healing has to do with reducing/eliminating carbohydrates in order to help restore healthy gut flora, so I think it would be pretty hard to do without consuming any meat. Not saying impossible, but I know we relied very heavily on the calories and nutrients provided by all kinds of sustainably-raised meat.

You can use L-glutamine as a replacement for the glutamine found in broths, but it is not the same thing as getting the gelatin and natural glutamines and also calcium and other minerals that are found in the actual food.
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#311 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 07:20 PM
 
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A lot of gut healing has to do with reducing/eliminating carbohydrates in order to help restore healthy gut flora, so I think it would be pretty hard to do without consuming any meat.
Hmmm.... Interesting.

I don't think I have any symptoms of a leaky gut (or am I in denial? ) but it is a possibility that dd does. She has had eczema for most of her life, and took a steroid inhaler for wheezing off and on for about a year.

Reading through the first thing that came up when I googled "Leaky Gut Symptoms" (http://www.caringmedical.com/conditi...t_Syndrome.htm
said that corticosteroids could cause a leaky gut.... Not sure how reputable this site is, but it was an interesting connection for me.

Erin, mommy to ds April 2004 and dd : February 2007
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#312 of 457 Old 10-03-2008, 07:29 PM
 
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Hmmm.... Interesting.

I don't think I have any symptoms of a leaky gut (or am I in denial? ) but it is a possibility that dd does. She has had eczema for most of her life, and took a steroid inhaler for wheezing off and on for about a year.

Reading through the first thing that came up when I googled "Leaky Gut Symptoms" (http://www.caringmedical.com/conditi...t_Syndrome.htm
said that corticosteroids could cause a leaky gut.... Not sure how reputable this site is, but it was an interesting connection for me.
Yep- lots of things can cause leaky gut- steroids, NSAIDS, antibiotics, poor diet, etc.

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
geek.gif I blog about our life with food allergies and eosinophilic disorders.
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#313 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 09:49 AM
 
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So, we have been doing this modified Gaps diet for almost a week now. The first two days dh and I felt super tired and I ended day two with a splitting headache and feeling very nauseous. This has also been a very clumsy, forgetful week. Dd however seemed just great for the first few days. She is still nursing a LOT, so she is getting heaps of milk sugar. Anyway, we really restricted the veggies we started with to try and make sure they are digested well by her - carrots, onions, broccoli, cauliflower and squash. I think I went a bit overboard with the squash the last three days and now dd's eczema is flaring worse than it did in weeks. I also took ghee out and then added it back in right around the time of the squash, because I was so sure that neither was a problem. The thing is that we ate bowls full of ghee (really, we eat a lot) last week before we started this diet, and her skin was starting to clear. That makes me think it is the squash. I am pretty sure that she cannot tolerate zuchini, so it probably makes sense. Anyone have any other ideas?

So, I feel like going back to how we ate earlier, but add a lot of bone broth and avoid grains and starches. Sigh, I was hoping that this diet would put us on the fast track to healing.
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#314 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 09:57 AM
 
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I'm so sorry. There is no one right diet for everyone, and this is just part (a frustrating part!) of the journey. I have made several decisions that in hindsight turned out to be major steps backwards. It happens, but it's all information.

It may be the right diet, just not right *now.* And what if you did it but just took out the squash? There are so many ways to do any of these "diets" it's just a matter of finding balance.
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#315 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 10:01 AM
 
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I am not sure what the modified Gaps diet is, but what else are you eating? Any grains? Because I think zuchini is usually very well-tolerated. Of course, it can be absolutely anything. And overdoing any food can cause a temporary allergy to that. My good friend whose daughters had very bad eczema when they were young, could not eat any one food more often than once every four days. Maybe with her eczema like it is, instead of trying to eliminate so much at once, you could try eating slightly more foods, enough to be able to rotate everything. It seems like with eczema that is more important. When my child had eczema reactions to food, it was always because of eating them too frequently, because I was eliminating so many things trying to figure out what was causing the intestinal symptoms. So it was a double whammy. But they were bigger allergens, eggs and beef.
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#316 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 11:51 AM
 
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Hi friends,
I am looking for your opinions. My kids were getting a probiotic with FOS in it, and after a time, I was starting to think that the probiotics were actually making it worse, and that maybe they were just sensitive to the FOS. I stopped the probiotics for my LO, and gave him yogurt instead. He started having a runny nose and congestion. Maybe it was from the yogurt, maybe it's just a cold, but I stopped it. He has not complained of "my tummy hurts" at all, which he was having before. (The tummy hurting statements were very transient before, and I think it might have been because of the probiotics causing tummy rumbling, and that's just how he described it. Because it never stopped him from playing etc, and it would usually be gone ten minutes later, sometimes an hour later, but still.)

Now, I really don't know what to do. He actually had normal poops for two days on the yogurt. Then I let him have a coconut macaroon yesterday, and I don't know if that caused this again, but he had a loose stool this morning.

The coconut flour bothered him before, but the coconut macaroons never did. I wanted to try coconut yogurt, because I wwant to get SOME kind of probiotics into him TODAY. But now I'm worried that the coconut yogurt will give him loose stool too.

What should I do? I could go to the HFS and try to find some probiotics without FOS in them. I could make coconut yogurt. Or I could give him the probiotics with the FOS in them again, and just expect some looser stool.

Do you think the coconut yogurt would bother him if he couldn't tolerate the coconut flour and macaroons? I guess I am thinking that maybe that was just the fiber in them that was upsetting things.

Any thoughts?? Thanks all.
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#317 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 12:16 PM
 
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Sorry for the multiple postings here... but thanks for all those links about gut bacteria. I also agree that what we see as "normal" here in the U.S. doesn't necessarily mean normal. I mean, if they say, here is what a normal adult's bowel movement looks like, or here are the bacteria in a normal adult. They are meaning an adult who has likely had vaccines, antibiotics, possibly eats a typical American diet.

As for dairy, I am so very torn. On the one hand, I feel like people around the world eat fermented dairy and it does their health very good. On the other hand, some indigenous cultures don't eat dairy after weaning, but instead they eat other types of fermented foods. Also, traditionally, people wouldn't have had access to running water, etc, so they would have eaten fresh from the field or forest, without washing stuff off, so would there be microorganisms on their food that way too? Bacteria specifially?

I am just feeling like maybe for my 4 yr old, he needs to get some probiotics from food. I have read that is often colonizes the gut better that way than in pill form. Is this correct?

If I make kefir water or juice, is it as good of a probiotic as raw milk kefir or yogurt?

I would still have to order the grains, make the stuff, etc, and I feel I need to give him something TODAY. I don't know what to do.

I have raw milk, but he has a runny nose and congestion with no fever at all, and it just really seems like dairy wouldn't help that right now. I have always heard to cut out dairy at those times.
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#318 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 01:16 PM
 
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Are digestive enzymes something you always have to take? My LO has allergy related eczema. We're on an ED right now to find the culprits (so far identified corn and soy), and I'm planning for long-term gut healing. I also am sensitive to grains and am prepared to TTC #2 in the next year. So, my question is this: if I try digestive enzymes and they help is that something I would always have to take or is that something I can take until my gut is healed and then stop?
This is all very new to me.
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#319 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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SAmama, I agree that rotation diets really help a lot of folks, I've heard.


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#320 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 03:23 PM
 
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Momofmine, when I posted about wanting kefir grains, I had two leads within days and just picked them up locally. We are in a large city, though.

I went to EarthFare yesterday and bought every type of probiotics food and children's version of supplements. I hope to find some that ds will take consistently. He'll drink the grape juice kefir occasionally. He likes some yogurts, but they have soy. And I'm trying to avoid the soy. So, I hope he'll like a yogurt pushup or flavored drinkable yogurt. These are pasteurized dairy, even. I also bought some of those new Attune chocolate bars and Bubbles pickles. I rested my kefir grains in water and use the water to dilute some juice.

I figure the "buckshot" approach will at least add some probiotics to his diet.

I bought some probiotics with the FOS. I figure trial and error has value too.

It sounds like the coconut may be an issue for your son. But, quantity may be the variable for you all also.

Do I recall that you couldn't do almond flour? What about barley, spelt, oats, and soaking the whole grains or soaking the flour, or sprouting grains for flour, instead?

I definitely don't think you "have to" have raw dairy or fermented dairy. But, there are perceived benefits and perceived "risks". And some folks are actually *allergic*. I wouldn't consider a runny nose and loose poop as reasons to avoid fermented dairy. Some of the benefits haven't been isolated or defined. The assumption is that the significant microflora of juice kefir and kombucha have similar benefits. Just as I assume there are benefits from all the probiotic foods I bought yesterday. As "good as" a traditional diet?, probably not. And, we are adding traditional foods as much as possible concurrently.

We each weigh the available alternatives with the perceived benefits against the perceived risks. I don't believe there is ONE right answer. And with kids, "as soon as you figure it out, it changes".


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#321 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 03:42 PM
 
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Also, traditionally, people wouldn't have had access to running water, etc, so they would have eaten fresh from the field or forest, without washing stuff off, so would there be microorganisms on their food that way too? Bacteria specifially?
Was it this thread that discussed the "Primal Defence" which actually is a Homeostatic Soil Organism Probiotic Blend utilizing 12 species of beneficial microorganisms. http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products...8/Default.aspx

Basically dirt microbs.


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#322 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 04:54 PM
 
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Yes, it certainly does! You are so right!

As for the FOS, I am baffled and dont know what to think. Elaine Gottschall always said that the FOS could feed the yeast or certain bad bacteria, or cause the bifidus to overgrow. Yes, there is some, but she was saying too much isn't good either, because then it would be pushing other good ones out. It is all a balance. Which is why I do learn towards the idea of getting the probiotics through food, because it seems that way it would be a more natural way of acquiring them. However, the abx we used weren't natural, so I feel like maybe we need something more to get over that! As for the FOS, the probiotics with the FOS caused more tummy rumbling and looser poops. Then once I had worked my way up to a significant amount, it helped, and the poops started normalizing, but then he started having blood, and seemed to suddenly be irritated by things that he was eating fine before (gluten, coconut). So my take on it was that the FOS was causing some inflammation or irritation, or possibly causing a greater increase of the wrong kinds of bacteria.
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#323 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 04:55 PM
 
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joybird, or anyone else,
You posted something a while back about how once you figure out whether the problem is more yeast or bacteria, then it helps in knowing what to hit it with. Which things help which? And how do you figure that out?
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#324 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GoddessKristie View Post
Are digestive enzymes something you always have to take? My LO has allergy related eczema. We're on an ED right now to find the culprits (so far identified corn and soy), and I'm planning for long-term gut healing. I also am sensitive to grains and am prepared to TTC #2 in the next year. So, my question is this: if I try digestive enzymes and they help is that something I would always have to take or is that something I can take until my gut is healed and then stop?
This is all very new to me.
Yes you can take and then stop. Your body in no way becomes dependent on them. Whether your intestinal inflammation retreats and your own intestinal villi are repaired, your gut flora balanced, and your stomach acid strengthened, is the test of healing.

Ideally, one can learn to craft a diet filled with enzyme rich food: raw animal foods and fermented grains/fruit/veggies/beverages to save your own enzymes for body repair and your pancreas from overworking on processed food, as much research on traditional diets have shown. In fact, eating enzyme rich foods is the same as popping digestive enzyme pills, it's just harder and not our modern way of eating.

I was just reading Dr. Tom Cowan's book again the other day and came across a suggestion for a pineapple fast (pineapple has huge amount of protein digesting enzymes) and thought that was interesting. Of course for us who are intolerant of large amounts of salicylates that would be a nightmare. But similarly there are other raw food diets that one can learn the background theory of enzymes and healing from: The Milk Cure or The Primal Diet.

There is some evidence of Food Chemical Intolerance (salicylates, amines) and eczema which I'm researching now.
http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/

That could be the reason for the previous poster with a baby reacting to large amounts of veggies.
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#325 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:14 PM
 
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joybird, or anyone else,
You posted something a while back about how once you figure out whether the problem is more yeast or bacteria, then it helps in knowing what to hit it with. Which things help which? And how do you figure that out?
See enzymestuff info on Bacteria/Yeast
http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionbacteria.htm
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#326 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:24 PM
 
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Hello there. I have crohns disease and i have had 18 inches of my colon removed after an abcess perforated and almost killed me. That was 4 years ago. I havent had a flare for 3 years now and i want to maintain my remission. Here is what i take:

Enteric coated probiotics
Omega 3 fish oil (molecularly distilled)
Multivitamin with a B25 complex in it
Vitamin D 1000 IU
Digestive Enzyme pill with every meal
Calcium supplement

I do take the calcium later in the day so it doesnt interfere with the absorbtion of my other vitamins. I dont follow a specific diet but i do avoid processed food and i try my best to eat healthy.

Does this look good or does anyone have any suggestions?
Well it's working and that is certainly a good sign!

I would sub the fish oil and vit. D pill for high vitamin cod liver oil, either Radiant Life or Blue Ice. Vitamin A is essential for gut mucosal integrity.

Get your vitamin D blood level tested to see if 1000 IU is enough to keep you in the high normal range. In addition to breast cancer and other cancers, IBD and Crohn's have been highly correlated with vitamin D deficiency. This "vitamin" which really acts like a hormone in the body is actually a key component of our immune system. There is much evidence that we should be taking several thousand IU of D and most especially depending on latitude where we live. (These diseases go up the farther away from equator people live.)

www.mercola.com just had an article on best blood tests but I haven't read it yet.

Why are you taking calcium is it not in your diet sufficiently? There are other cofactors which are just as, if not more imp. than calcium to bones, teeth, etc... such as magnesium, A, D, and K2. We are obsessed with calcium and neglect these other crucial nutrients.
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#327 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:38 PM
 
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You said it's bifidus dominance that causes the infant's gut to close. What does that mean? When does it close? I think I have read that around age 4-5 years a child's bacteria changes to more like that of an adult's. My 4 yo is still nursing, granted not much, but would that change things? I wonder if maybe I should still be giving him a probiotic that is designed for babies.
No I wouldn't give one designed for babes. While I think that Elaine Gottshall of the SCD was seriously myopic when it comes to bifidobacterium, once solid foods are given the bacterial balance of the small intestine does respond to lactobacillus.

It's not necessarily the particular organisum you give but the "environment" that it creates. Meaning, does the probiotic give off H2O2 and its own natural antibiotics which encourage the many other hundreds of strains of bacteria and yeasts to favor the "good" kind.

I also think that the internal environment is very heavily based on nutritional status: amount of minerals are mainly the platform for acid/alkaline body balance. It's more complex than just what gut flora are there.
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#328 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:45 PM
 
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Which of the yeast killer's are safe for breastfeeding? Is there ine that's better for kids than others?

Mom to DMI & Silly Apple
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#329 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:50 PM
 
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For the vegetarian poster:

Sorry I cannot find it now to reply!

Like I just posted about minerals, there are key nutrients which are missing time and time again in people with gut problems. And animal products contain the most concentrated, easily absorbable forms of these nutrients. Yes pumpkin seeds are high in zinc, but a person with a damaged gut is going to have a very hard time breaking them down and actually utilizing it. There are also various complementary minerals and vitamins in animal foods which are not present in veggies such as the fat soluble vitamins. Not to mention the high phytate content of veg*n diets which impair mineral absorption.

I used to be vegetarian and sometimes vegan. Talking to myself then: I would say think about why you are vegetarian (for me it was all health and very little about animals rights but you might be different). Read the Vegetarian Tour at www.westonaprice.org.

There might be ways you can craft a diet that reaches your goal. Lots of grass fed dairy and pastured eggs for example. Consider fish and shellfish. Or humanely raised pastured meats. Fish broth is extremely healing. It's all about the nutrients if you are eating veg for health reasons. Obviously allergies and intolerances will have to be taken into account so that makes it that much harder the more restrictions you pile on.

Avoid soy, ask me if you do not know why.
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#330 of 457 Old 10-04-2008, 05:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
Which of the yeast killer's are safe for breastfeeding? Is there ine that's better for kids than others?
That's a good question, because I was just reading the stuff on the enzymes site, but I'm not sure which ones are the more gentler that would be appropriate for the younger ones.

One thing I am curious about is do you sometimes have to kill off some of the bad guys first, before you start probiotics? If you start probiotics first, is that worse? Or is it just that it may be ineffective until you add in something like enzymes or an antimicrobial?

Jane, do you think getting enzymes from food can be just as effective as taking enzyme pills? Or, do you think if you are trying to right some wrongs, then the pills work better first?

What are the best foods for that? Just anything fermented?
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