Healing The Gut Tribe! - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

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#241 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:35 PM
 
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I definitely agree with homeopathy consultation. Also, it is important to rotate probiotics otherwise "probiotic resistance" could develop, I've read. Don't use single strain probiotics; and DO rotate them every 4-7 days. Additionally, "Live Active Culture" probiotics (like *some* yogurt, all kefir and fermented foods) are more able to make it to the gut and repopulate the microflora. Most probiotics sold are not vital once they make to the gut. Especially, probiotic powders loose potency when exposed to the air. Probiotics in capsule form live longer. Also the heat damage from transportation diminishes the vital cultures of many probiotics sold.. A lot of yogurt is heat pasteurized, which kills probiotics! Look for "Live Active Cultures".

Here is an informative article "Selection Criteria for Probiotics": http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1

But, from what I've read, it is essential to continually consume healthy bacteria, they don't replace the "bad microbs", just displace them. So, adding alternative "good bacteria", not singular or limited individual probiotics, seems more optimal to the gut. http://www.usprobiotics.org/docs/Sci...%C2%B0%205.pdf

The Probiotic Solution champions the "pulsing and rotating probiotics". http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...52/ai_n6112818

I'd venture to guess that your probiotics may be "old" and lost ability to repopulate the gut.

This link discusses specific brands of different probiotics: http://www.usprobiotics.org/products.asp

Also, you may consider using almond flour for baking. I don't know the specifics on baking substitutions though.


HTH,
Pat
Thanks Pat!

I called the homeopathic person this morning, and he says it is most definitely just an anal fissure. He HAS been straining more to poop. His poop comes out formed but soft and it breaks apart in the water. So how can this cause an anal fissure?

I really think his gut is just still very inflamed and he reacted to the coconut flour. But, I would have thought it would have stopped by now. The thing is that we BOTH had the same reaction, blood in our stools. Except I only had it for two days, where he has had it now for four days. (Only having one bowel movement per day, though, so it's not like it is a lot of blood. And everything else is fine. No fever, lethargy, stomach pain, etc.)

We can both handle coconut milk and shredded coconut and coconut macaroons just fine. But the coconut flour we could not. It's so weird. That makes me think it is not necessarily an allergic reaction, but rather just maybe if the gut is inflamed, the coconut flour is somehow irritating because of the fiber or something. (I'll admit I ate quite a few of the cookies I made.)

He also still nurses, so I guess it also takes an extra day or so for it get out of my breastmilk. Though he really doesn't nurse that much at all now. One to two times per day max.

We used to use almond flour for baking when we did the SCD several years ago with my first child, up until the age of 4. But the second child has a peanut allergy, so I've been avoiding that. So I was hoping coconut would work. But, it's clearly OFF the list for a while.

I am just so confused about this blood in the stool. The doctor said anal fissure, but he had this a few weeks ago (though much, much less) after being on a higher dose probiotic for a while, and there is just something in me that wonders if it isn't maybe the probiotic itself irritating things more. Maybe we can't handle the FOS the way others can. I don't know.

I don't think it's that the probiotics are old, because we ordered straight from Klaire, they stay refrigerated, and they shipped them packed in ice.

The one we were giving did have multiple strains in it.

Do you all think I should just stop the probiotic altogether for a day or two?

I tried just giving him yogurt for two days now (we had stopped dairy altogether), and his nose is congested today. This is the same reaction I have to dairy. Though he's eaten it before without problems, I'm just not sure about giving him dairy.
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#242 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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Dd's skin seems to be clearing!! And her poops are looking more formed. :

We started A Vogel's eczema formula a month or so ago. It is supposed to help liver and kidney function. Then we started enzymes between meals (for her) about two weeks ago (had been doing enzymes with meals for a long time). She was reacting horrendously, with moods, tantrums and terrible, terrible sleep. Oh, and her eczema was red and angry. Last week I gave her one dose of premixed Nystatin (with all the crap in it) and she flared up really bad. I wasn't sure if it was because of the colouring, etc. in it, or because of die-off, but decided not to do it again. Oh, somewhere last week I started adding GSE to her enzymes and then be sure to follow it up with some strong probiotics. More tantrums, flare-ups, etc. Now she is finally sleeping a little better (waking up only 4-5 times a night, as opposed to just about every hour... or waking up and not going back to sleep). But her skin looks fantastic, although she is still very itchy at night and at nap time (any clues why?). The best it has in two years!! Oh, and what made all this possible is that I taught her to take capsules last week. She was starting to really rebel against her enzymes, but thought it was pretty grand to take a tablet.

Today we started with the GAPS diet. We are only doing broth today, but will add meat tomorrow and then slowly add veggies.

I also have the opportunity to get some stuff from the US. I was thinking of either Threelac and Oxygen elements or Nystatin (the pure stuff) and a very good probiotic (she is using mine, Primal Defense, which she actually isn't supposed to get, according to the bottle). The person who will bring it has very limited space, so it is either or for us. I am leaning towards the Threelac, but am not sure. Any suggestions?

Wow! That's awesome! What do you think did the trick for more formed stools?

I would really like to hear about Threelac too. I know others here have used it. I have also seen others give mixed reviews about it. Someone just posted another thread about one of the strains in the Threelac being connected to cancer. ?? Who knows.
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#243 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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How was it determined that it was a fissure? Can you see it? Was it frank blood or was there mucus involved?

It's possible it was a fissure, but with stool that soft I would be wondering about skin integrity. Are you getting adequate amounts of zinc in your diet?

I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.
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#244 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:41 PM
 
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for anyone interested this is a fun product and has been used widely for gut healing.

http://www.vegetarian-restaurants.ne...E-DE-DRAGO.htm

Sangre de Drago is used extensively by indigenous cultures of the Amazon River basin for its remarkable healing properties. Applied to the skin on abrasions, cuts, scratches, and blisters, Sangre de Drago almost immediately forms a brownish gel over the lesion that seals the wound. Applied on bites and stings it halts the symptoms of pain and itching within minutes, with a subsequent reduction in swelling and redness. Sangre de Drago is reported by indigenous people to foster wound healing at a rate that is superior to natural processes, and it does so with reduced pain, inflammation, and scarring. Indigenous people also take Sangre de Drago orally in a diluted form (e.g. three drops in a beverage two or three times a day) for gastrointestinal disorders, gastritis, gastric ulcer, intestinal infections, colitis and parasites.

*****

To strengthen the wall of the intestine and eliminate conditions linked to a leaky gut" add a teaspoon of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink throughout the day for approximately two weeks. To help get rid of parasites" add three to four teaspoons of Sangre de Drago to one liter of water and drink for a few days.

I use it for any kind of major bleed and had started using it several months back internally. I don't know if it was part of what allowed the healing, but it's amazing stuff externally so I do wonder....

Our homeopathic MD recommends stuff from this company, Amazon Herbs. I think he told me about the external stuff you are mentioning for cuts and wounds. What did it help you for internally? I am eager to know more! Thanks!
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#245 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:43 PM
 
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I have used threelac and did look into it intensively after that link was posted. I actually think there were some serious holes in that argument. I would personally do it again.
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#246 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:48 PM
 
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Our homeopathic MD recommends stuff from this company, Amazon Herbs. I think he told me about the external stuff you are mentioning for cuts and wounds. What did it help you for internally? I am eager to know more! Thanks!
I haven't been around in awhile, but I was in the healing the gut tribe back when it started. I had been diagnosed with celiac disease, I had all the symptoms that went along with inflammatory bowel disease, I was very sick for over a decade and subjected to all kinds of testing. Then my kids came along and my body was too sick to make milk (all three times...my milk did not come in on it's own) and I was experiencing neurological symptoms as well. All of my kids have documented food allergies. We have healed quite a bit, but I jsut tested negative for gluten. That is pretty darned huge after how sick I was. I won't say I'm "healed" yet, but I no longer have any of my original symptoms that I had for literally a decade.

I used several things (homeopathy being a biggie) but I can now eat anything with no symptoms, and as I said...my allergy tests have changed dramatically. I will not be consuming gluten on a regular basis but it's nice to know it won't be dangerous if I do!
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#247 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 07:53 PM
 
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How was it determined that it was a fissure? Can you see it? Was it frank blood or was there mucus involved?

It's possible it was a fissure, but with stool that soft I would be wondering about skin integrity. Are you getting adequate amounts of zinc in your diet?

I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.
No, I cannot see it at all, and he was just telling me this over the phone. He said absolutely that is what it was. I am thinking, how can he know that for sure though? He said from the way I described it, that's all it is.

There was no mucus. He is taking a kids multivitamin from Vitamin Research Products, but I just looked and it only has 2 mg zinc.

I totally agree about that with the fiber! We actually saw the homeopathic physician last week, and he just said it's normal that his stools are breaking apart in the water because he is eating so much fruit (He asked about DS's diet, and felt he was getting too much fructose. He does eat a lot of fruit.)

But, he just said to not worry about it, that he's fine, doesn't need anything else. He said just switch the balance to more vegetables and less fruit. And keep giving just the lower dose Klaire probiotic, and that's it.

I feel his gut is still inflamed. When I was giving him the higher dose probiotics three times a day, he was starting to have formed stools regularly. But then, after a while, he started having a very itchy bottom, was still saying his tummy hurt every now and then, and so I stopped them completely and he had a very red painful rash that I really thought was yeast immediately.

It cleared up by applying yogurt topically.

But this is why I am wondering if maybe the probiotic helped at first, but then started irritating things.

Now, with just the lower dose Klaire probiotic, he is back to having stools that come out formed and then break apart in the water.
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#248 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 11:47 PM
 
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I would also say to anyone with an inflamed gut...be extra wary of fiber. I am not suprised at this reaction....I have seen it alot. I'm sorry! For a damaged gut IME fiber is NOT your friend.
Yes, see I think that his gut is still in need of healing, and therefore the extra fiber caused problems.

Plus the thing about the doctor saying that it's just that he is getting too much fructose...then why did this change only happen after antibiotics? It was not like that before, and his diet was pretty much the same.

I just don't know where to go now, to heal his gut further.

How did you know you needed the Threelac? I have been wondering about trying that. Is it used on little ones (he just turned four).
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#249 of 457 Old 09-29-2008, 11:54 PM
 
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Momofmine, with soft stool, I'd be inclined to think it was not an anal fissure.

When I just did a search about FOS, I found this which isn't supportive of probiotics including FOS. http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

I'm a whole foods gal, so my recommendation is kefir. Easiest is milk kefir. If you can get raw milk it is much less allergenic than pasteurized, homogenized dairy. The probiotics and other microflora are in balance and are a traditional fermented food. That will help his gut most, imo. Or water kefir, if you want to avoid all casein.

Otherwise, I'd consider rotating probiotics.

Definitely, I'd avoid almond flour in the house due to your other child's peanut allergy. You may consider NAET for clearing your son of coconut (and the other of peanut) reactions. Have you considered soaking whole grains? We do the Sue Gregg blender method of soaking whole barley, spelt, Kamut, rice, and steel cut oats. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm


Pat

I have a blog.
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#250 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 12:29 AM
 
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Threelac had alot of great testimonials so I decided to try it. This was years ago. I have it to my dd and she was under two. She loved it! I think it helped alot, it just didn't address our underlying issue.
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#251 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 12:45 AM
 
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Anyone on Threelac might find this interesting.

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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#252 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 01:40 AM
 
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Dd's skin seems to be clearing!! And her poops are looking more formed. :

We started A Vogel's eczema formula a month or so ago. It is supposed to help liver and kidney function. Then we started enzymes between meals (for her) about two weeks ago (had been doing enzymes with meals for a long time). She was reacting horrendously, with moods, tantrums and terrible, terrible sleep. Oh, and her eczema was red and angry. Last week I gave her one dose of premixed Nystatin (with all the crap in it) and she flared up really bad. I wasn't sure if it was because of the colouring, etc. in it, or because of die-off, but decided not to do it again. Oh, somewhere last week I started adding GSE to her enzymes and then be sure to follow it up with some strong probiotics. More tantrums, flare-ups, etc. Now she is finally sleeping a little better (waking up only 4-5 times a night, as opposed to just about every hour... or waking up and not going back to sleep). But her skin looks fantastic, although she is still very itchy at night and at nap time (any clues why?). The best it has in two years!! Oh, and what made all this possible is that I taught her to take capsules last week. She was starting to really rebel against her enzymes, but thought it was pretty grand to take a tablet.

Today we started with the GAPS diet. We are only doing broth today, but will add meat tomorrow and then slowly add veggies.

I also have the opportunity to get some stuff from the US. I was thinking of either Threelac and Oxygen elements or Nystatin (the pure stuff) and a very good probiotic (she is using mine, Primal Defense, which she actually isn't supposed to get, according to the bottle). The person who will bring it has very limited space, so it is either or for us. I am leaning towards the Threelac, but am not sure. Any suggestions?
I am so happy to hear this! I know you and I pm'd a few times a while back and your dd's problems sounded so very similar to my dd. Enzymes are what really kick-started our healing too. And things only kept getting better after that. Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.

I am tempted by the Threelac but also nervous enough from some of the things I've read about it. I know it may not be true, but if by chance it is true, it's not something you can go back and change. The bacteria, once introduced, cannot be taken back out, you know? And since there are so many other ways of dealing with yeast, I don't think I'll take the chance with Threelac. If someone brings you probiotics, they'd need to be kept cold...don't know if that's a problem or not. If you can get it, I'd go for the Nystatin. It also comes in tablet form so that's another option now for your dd!

I am so happy for you. There is absolutely no better feeling in the world to know that your baby is getting better. Fair play to you! And good luck on the GAPS diet - I'm sure it will help too. And maybe you won't have to be on it too long if you keep up with the enzymes. Congratulations!!!
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#253 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 01:59 AM
 
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Checking in...

For Me:
I have been taking Tri-Enza with meals 2x a day and my other enzymes (Healthforce Nutritionals) with other meals. I have started with Virastop 1x a day and will be working it up starting tomorrow. I slipped a little and had some apple pie, but I just couldn't resist, especially since it was Marie Calendar's.
Once I get my virsatop up higher I will be adding in Candex and then rotating it with candidase. And if that's not good enough I will bring on some antifungals such as oregano or pau d'arco.

For my 28 month DD:
We have been using Zyme-prime with all meals and no real reactions, although she has had a bit of a rash on and off around her mouth. Just today we introduced AFP with a meal and will be slowly working it up. I also started her on 125mcg of Biotin a day mixed with 200mg of Magnesium(natural calm). She also gets brainchild vitamins and minerals and cod liver oil. And I also have started giving her milk thistle drops in her water.
Once the Afp is in every meal I will start the VSL #3, then after that I will get her on Candex.

I plan on getting some butter oil, maybe I will get it on Wednesday when I go to my first WAPF cooking class. I'm so excited.
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#254 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 02:04 AM
 
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I am so happy to hear this! I know you and I pm'd a few times a while back and your dd's problems sounded so very similar to my dd. Enzymes are what really kick-started our healing too. And things only kept getting better after that. Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.

I am tempted by the Threelac but also nervous enough from some of the things I've read about it. I know it may not be true, but if by chance it is true, it's not something you can go back and change. The bacteria, once introduced, cannot be taken back out, you know? And since there are so many other ways of dealing with yeast, I don't think I'll take the chance with Threelac. If someone brings you probiotics, they'd need to be kept cold...don't know if that's a problem or not. If you can get it, I'd go for the Nystatin. It also comes in tablet form so that's another option now for your dd!

I am so happy for you. There is absolutely no better feeling in the world to know that your baby is getting better. Fair play to you! And good luck on the GAPS diet - I'm sure it will help too. And maybe you won't have to be on it too long if you keep up with the enzymes. Congratulations!!!
Yes, I read and reread your pm's, especially after we seemed to get stuck and not move forward in healing. I really think it is the enzymes as well.
The Threelac sounds so simple, but dh is especially not comfortable with the strains in it. He would have to do more research and he definitely doesn't have time for it now. Neither do I. So, we might do the Nystatin. We can always do the Threelac later. We will get some kefir grains, finally! I am hoping that will help us as well.

This has been such a long journey and I am so tired of all of it. I really hope it is nearing an end.
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#255 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 02:12 AM
 
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Anybody have a source for pure Nystatin? I know it has to come from Canada.

Also, in searching for it I found this:

Quote:
Caraway promotes gastric secretion and stimulates appetite. It breaks down spasms in the gastrointestinal tract to prevent flatulence, but it is also used to treat menstrual cramps and gallbladder spasms. Caraway oil is strongly fungicidal, having a stronger anti-fungal and anti-yeast activity than the prescription medication Nystatin.
from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?
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#256 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 02:26 AM
 
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Momofmine, with soft stool, I'd be inclined to think it was not an anal fissure.

When I just did a search about FOS, I found this which isn't supportive of probiotics including FOS. http://www.healingcrow.com/ferfun/co...onspiracy.html

I'm a whole foods gal, so my recommendation is kefir. Easiest is milk kefir. If you can get raw milk it is much less allergenic than pasteurized, homogenized dairy. The probiotics and other microflora are in balance and are a traditional fermented food. That will help his gut most, imo. Or water kefir, if you want to avoid all casein.

Otherwise, I'd consider rotating probiotics.

Definitely, I'd avoid almond flour in the house due to your other child's peanut allergy. You may consider NAET for clearing your son of coconut (and the other of peanut) reactions. Have you considered soaking whole grains? We do the Sue Gregg blender method of soaking whole barley, spelt, Kamut, rice, and steel cut oats. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm


Pat
Pat, thank you so very much for that link. I had forgotten all about that person, with the healing crow website. You know, we did the SCD years ago for my first child, when he was very little, and I knew then that FOS was a no-no on SCD and why it wasn't allowed.

My second child had no intestinal problems at all until this. I thought about doing the SCD again, but I thought, well, it would be so hard since we aren't doing nuts right now. BUT, I thought, I really should at least find a probiotic without FOS, but the doctor we saw recommended this from Klaire, and so many people talk about how Klaire is such a good probiotic, etc, etc. My gut was telling me maybe it wasn't right, becasue initially it caused a lot of gas and tummy rumbling, etc., but I pressed on anyway. And now I really think it was not the right thing for him. Some people may do fine with it, and it may even help them, but I think it is not right for us. I really think it caused yeast or something to overgrow for him, because after being on it for awhile, he started getting an itchy bottom, so I stopped them altogether and he had a terrible yeasty diaper rash. The doctor said, no, there is nothing in the probiotic that would cause that. But I think the FOS was the culprit. I think I am just going to make some 24 hour scd yogurt with raw milk from the local place here and try to just totally cut out the probiotics for a week and see what happens.

I react poorly to dairy, and I've really been wanting to look into making water kefir.

Does anyone know where I can get some water kefir grains?

Thank you also for the soaking grains link. I had been buying only sprouted bread, but I need to just try that.

Wow, I feel like you have just reminded me of all these things I knew to be true, but I let myself forget, or get swayed away from. Thank you, really, so much.

People should know that FOS is not a good choice for everyone. I know this for sure now. It may be the reason why some people react with such strong and violent diarrhea to probiotics.
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#257 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 02:32 AM
 
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Also, in searching for it I found this:



from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?
That's really interesting. I'm not sure where you would find the oil. I have caraway seeds in my kitchen. I use it in coleslaw with cabbage.

Here's another link about it saying it is good for intestinal stuff, that in combination with peppermint oil:
http://www.doctormurray.com/newsletter/1-05-2003.htm

Not sure, but eager to hear more if you find out.
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#258 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 08:57 AM
 
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Anyone on Threelac might find this interesting.
That's the one I was referring to. Everyone should go with their guts, but I found alot of problems with the research.
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#259 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 08:59 AM
 
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Anybody have a source for pure Nystatin? I know it has to come from Canada.

Also, in searching for it I found this:



from this site http://www.tasteofnature.com/109.html
Anybody have any experience with it? And, where would I find actual caraway oil?
I use it in castor oil packs for gut inflammation. You can get it from many essential oil companies.
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#260 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 10:40 AM
 
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Yes, I read and reread your pm's, especially after we seemed to get stuck and not move forward in healing. I really think it is the enzymes as well.
The Threelac sounds so simple, but dh is especially not comfortable with the strains in it. He would have to do more research and he definitely doesn't have time for it now. Neither do I. So, we might do the Nystatin. We can always do the Threelac later. We will get some kefir grains, finally! I am hoping that will help us as well.

This has been such a long journey and I am so tired of all of it. I really hope it is nearing an end.
I just posted this to the other thread regarding enterococcus faecalis and colon cancer concerns.

Quote:
"Bacteriocin ST8KF (bacST8KF), produced by Lactobacillus plantarum ST8KF isolated from kefir, inhibits the growth of Enterococcus faecalis E88."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Basically, consumption of kefir could inhibit the growth of Enterococcus faecalis. And listeria and salmonella.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17719671

And kefir appears to inhibit the growth of E. coli. http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Vinderola,CG

I believe the presence of enterococcus faecalis without a lactic acid environment may be a variable allowing mutation. But, that is merely theoretical speculation. The second link discusses the lactic acid environment as an inhibitory process, in the presence of the other microbials in kefir, specifically.
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#261 of 457 Old 09-30-2008, 10:49 AM
 
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I react poorly to dairy, and I've really been wanting to look into making water kefir.

Does anyone know where I can get some water kefir grains?

Thank you also for the soaking grains link. I had been buying only sprouted bread, but I need to just try that.
By "react poorly to dairy", are you concerned about the lactose, gas, eczema, mucus production, diarrhea? If you don't mind my prying. And don't feel compelled to respond. It is rather rhetorical, 'cause, if you can get raw milk, and ferment it, you shouldn't have all those issues...especially if you get Guernsey milk, rather than Jersey dairy milk. Or if you have access to raw goat's milk, even less likely to cause "reacting poorly". Again, if fermented, even fewer potential allergens.

I suggest milk kefir grains, because it is so much easier than making water kefir, imo. And easier to get the grains. And the milk kefir has MORE probiotics.

I'm all into ease! That is why I LOVE Sue Gregg's blender batter method of soaking grains!! And they are delicious, and you can rotate grains, or make multi-grain gluten free. Yipee! :



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#262 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 01:13 AM
 
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sorry to be rude and butt in here as i haven't read everything yet (i am working on it) but i am really curious how does one go about healing the gut on a shoestring budget (and limited amounts of time to prepare and cook food etc)? it seems like everyone else is taking a long laundry list of supplements. we are on a limited income, my dh has been getting upset about even going to the hfs to get the stuff that i usually get there (especially the free range meat.) i know i have a leaky gut and i have 2 boys with food intolerances. i know that ds1 (almost 4 yo) is gluten, corn, soy, tomato, citrus, squash, and melon intolerant and ds2 (7 weeks old) so far seems to be gluten, casein, and possibly citrus intolerant but i am still trying to figure out all of his intolerances. i am really disappointed in myself for having gotten pregnant with ds2 without having resolved all of this! and now ds2 has a yeast rash on his bum. neither have ever had oral thrush though. but i am feeling like the worst mom in the world, especially since ds1 has been eating all kinds of no-no foods because i have very little time to cook now.

also re:kefir grains. will converted milk kefir grains perpetually contaminate everything with casein? i bought some kefir grains before ds2 was born and now i am off all dairy because it was making ds2 vomit copiously and have green mucusy bms. i am thinking about getting some water kefir grains from ebay now if i can't use my milk kefir grains...

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#263 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 09:04 AM
 
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Once you really know that it is either yeast or bacteria causing the problems, it frees you up to be a lot more aggressive in pursuing healing measures. I also would not have been able to do any of this without getting my dd to take capsules.

My dd is on a round of Nystatin and she did flare from that too. Also from the GSE but then would get better when I persevered through the tough stuff. Die-off, I guess. Our holistic doc knew it was yeast when I told him about how she reacted to enzymes, GSE, etc. So he suggested a round of Nystatin and did a stool test and, sure enough there was yeast.
joybird,

So, are you saying that just by trial and error, from her having those reactions, that's how you knew her problem was yeast and not bacteria?

I am just curious to know how I would know if the problem is yeast or bacteria. Unless I did a stool test, but I think JaneS posted something recently saying they aren't always very accurate.
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#264 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 09:51 AM
 
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By "react poorly to dairy", are you concerned about the lactose, gas, eczema, mucus production, diarrhea?.
My reaction to dairy is sinus stuff, congestion. I would sometimes get a full-blown sinus infection if I ate too much of it.

I always ate dairy (conventional) as a child. As a teenager, I started getting repeated strep throat one year, for which I received multiple courses of abx. It always came back right away. I don't know how many courses of abx I had that year, but it was a lot. Finally, they took my tonsils out (not my choice, but I didn't know enough to protest at the time). After that, I STILL got sick. My mom was not happy. That was when she and I both began to learn about more natural healing.

She had me tested for allergies, and I came back as very allergic to dairy, cats and molds. My room was in the basement where our cat lived, and I ate lots of dairy. I believe all those abx created my mold allergy.

I got better eliminating dairy. After that, I would occasionally eat dairy, but if I ate too much in a row, I would wind up with a full-blown sinus infection (for which I would NOT take abx, though!). I test positive on allergy tests as being allergic to both cow and goat milk.

THEN I learned about raw milk, and I did start getting it regularly last year. I must call today and find out if they are Guernsey. I found that I could tolerate small amounts of it, as long as I didn't go overboard. If I ate it too many days in a row, I would get bad sinus stuff. I can't eat cheese at all, even the raw milk cheese. And I actually think it has gotten worse. Because I used to be able to tolerate some cheese, etc, but now, any at all gives me miserable sinus pain and congestion.

But to be honest, I have never tried doing JUST kefir or yogurt from the raw milk. In fact, I've never made kefir.

Here's my story with the raw milk though, and please, I would love perspective on this. I was mostly keeping dairy away from my kids, except for when my son did SCD years ago, we made the SCD yogurt on and off, sometimes with raw goat and sometimes with regular organic cow, and sometimes I would give him cheese. But I tried not to overdo it for either of them, because they both seemed to be less colicky when I eliminated all dairy while nursing.

Then, about a year ago, we were able to start getting raw milk locally, so I started buying that, and they would even just drink it (I had never given them fluid cow milk to drink before), or I would bake with it, etc. But I wasn't making yogurt or kefir. Then, in January of this year, they both got strep throat! Aaacckk, I thought. Of course, I immediately thought it was related to the dairy, so I temporarily gave away our cow share. They haven't had any dairy since January, until now.

BUT, I really now think that they are okay with the raw dairy, and maybe getting the probiotics through food would be good for them. I am going to go and get raw milk this morning. I am going to try doing JUST the fermented dairy. I stopped the probiotics for my 4 yr old the other day, the blood in his stool has cleared up from the coconut flour, so I bought organic yogurt at the hth food store until I could make some. I gave him raw milk cheese at the same time (I don't know why I didn't start just one at a time), and after just one day he started having a clear runny nose and a tiny bit of congestion. I am sure it is from the dairy, but it really might just be the cheese, and starting it all at once. I am going to do just kefir or yogurt.

Here is what I am wondering about the raw milk yogurt or kefir though. Do you still get the benefits of it being raw even though you are heating it to 180 degrees? Is there a way to make it and heat it less?

What kind of grains do you use for the kefir? I went to the HFS yesterday and bought the Yogourmet brand. I will order if there is something better. I am looking in Nourishing Traditions right now, and she lists kefir grains and kefir powder under sources.

Sorry this is so long, but your question just brought up exactly what I have been thinking about for months, trying to process all this in my head and wondering what to do, so this is very helpful. Thank you so much for reading.

ETA: Sorry, but I just read the directions for kefir in NT, and she does NOT heat it to 180! The Yogourmet kefir starter package says to heat it to 180 just like yogurt. She does heat the yogurt to 180 though.

Thank you!
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#265 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 10:27 AM
 
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sorry to be rude and butt in here as i haven't read everything yet (i am working on it) but i am really curious how does one go about healing the gut on a shoestring budget (and limited amounts of time to prepare and cook food etc)?
I am so sorry you are going through this with a tiny new baby! Do NOT be mad at yourself. I would just take it one step at a time. Having a 7 week old baby is hard enough, and you want to enjoy this time with your new baby too!

The first thing I would do is cut out ALL sugar or highly processed stuff. You didn't say what you are eating. If you are gluten free, are you eating lots of GF processed stuff? That can make things worse, IMO. I know it seems hard to cook whole foods with a new baby, but try to not think of cooking recipes. Just cook food. Rinse off a chicken and throw some salt on it and roast it whole in the oven. It only takes 3 or 4 minutes to get it in the oven, really, and then you are done. Steam some veggies, you can even buy fresh stuff already prepped, if you really are feeling like you don't have time to even cut up veggies (which I completely understand with a newborn). Try to focus on just fresh, whole foods, and I believe eating that way is not more expensive if you aren't buying the boxed stuff.

Can you tolerate just probiotics? It seems like, of all the supplements, that's the one most people start with. You probably don't want to start a bunch of things at once anyway. Since you aren't doing any dairy for now, that seems to help a lot of people.

About FOS, it seems to be in lots of probiotics, and some people seem to be fine with it, it even helps them. But I think my family does not tolerate it well, at least not in large amounts. I would look for something without FOS to start out with at least.

Can you make bone broth? Even if you just get a chicken and throw it in a pot and let it simmer for a long long time. You can take the meat off and continue to simmer the bones for longer, and that's good. At least for you to drink. (I can't get my 4 yr old to drink broth, I wish I could.)

Good luck! I would just pick one thing and try that. That will be a lot less overwhelming.
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desertpenguin, I'd do bone broths, and make juice kefir with the milk kefir grains. The casein in kefir is not the same as the casein in most dairy milk. Or get water kefir grains. Those would be my main priorities. You can make yogurt also, often that is tolerated, even with dairy intolerance. Or consider goat's milk yogurt. Place it on the yeast on the bum.

It is hard to "resolve all this", don't beat yourself up. That is useless energy. Just focus on what you *can do*.


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#267 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 11:52 AM
 
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Here is what I am wondering about the raw milk yogurt or kefir though. Do you still get the benefits of it being raw even though you are heating it to 180 degrees? Is there a way to make it and heat it less?

What kind of grains do you use for the kefir? I went to the HFS yesterday and bought the Yogourmet brand. I will order if there is something better. I am looking in Nourishing Traditions right now, and she lists kefir grains and kefir powder under sources.
I'm still a novice, heavy on the research, light on experience. But, it was interesting reading about your 'stuffy nose and sinus' issues. That is exactly my experience, but I really hadn't put 2 and 2 together about it. I don't consider myself dairy "intolerant", much, lol. I get irritable if I eat too much casein, and had a lot of pasteurized cheese this week and have a stuffy head and fullness in my ears...hmmm...

So, on that note, I haven't made yogurt myself. In the Traditional Foods forum, I believe I have heard that some folks do NOT heat the raw milk to make yogurt. Double check me on that, though. The point of heating is to kill bacteria; I don't think that is a preferable goal, however with raw milk. I'm not certain. And pristine handling would be necessary, so as not to introduce pathological bacteria to the raw milk yogurt.

For now, I'd get the conventional kefir. But, get REAL kefir grains asap. There is a mama on MDC which is an easy source. Here is her website: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/shop/ You can ask on the kefir thread in TF also. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=517191

The yahoogroup Kefir_Making, is my favorite source of info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kefir_...guid=287472904

Also the MDC thread "Got Kefir?" http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=203282


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#268 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 12:31 PM
 
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stuffiness, excess mucus, frequent sinus problems and frequent ear infections are all signs of a dairy intolerance, most likely casein intolerance. i speak from both experience and research. for my case, it doesn't matter if it is raw milk or pasteurized milk - i get gunky when i drink uncultured milk/cream or eat uncultured butter. raw milk cheese is turning out to be ok if i eat it in small amounts (1x per week or so)

casein can be broken down entirely by some choice microbes (L. delbrueckii specifically) in kefir (maybe L. delbrueckii is also in yogurt?) but only after a long culturing time (2 days or so - you should be able to clearly see separation between whey and curd)). i find that summertime long cultures end up swinging too much into the acetobacter realm which makes pretty nasty tasting kefir. wintertime long cultures taste strong but are at least edible.

for yogurt, you must get the milk to body temperature - that is the temperature at which the microbes are active.

of the two, kefir is easier because you dump the grains into your milk, park it on the counter and forget about it. yogurt is a little fussier and requires a bit more attention.

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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#269 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 12:59 PM
 
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momofmine - i have been eating too much rice cereal and rice milk. bad, i know! but i am trying to keep up with making various nut and seed milks which are healthier. as for the bone broth, the monthly coop here just opened and SCORE! ox tails and lots o' soup bones! : if only the locally raised pastured chickens were even semi-affordable...i have been thinking more about doing conventional chicken that is hormone and antibiotic free so we can have more meat.

WuWei - is it possible to tolerate goat's milk yogurt or kefir when you can't tolerate goat's milk? we have a good source of raw milk (cow and goat) but since i have gone dairy free i called them and told them we wouldn't be picking up for at least a couple of months since we use so much less milk now and it's about a 45 minute drive one way. ds2 seemed to be reacting even when i was drinking goat's milk and from ghee too. i put raw acv, tea tree and lavender oil in his wipes water and using burt's bees rash cream and it seems to be helping. anyways i will try making grape juice kefir. i made it in the past and ds1 lurved it, maybe a little too much. haha. tried making it with cream of coconut concentrate but didn't realize the solids in the concentrate would separate so badly. hope my grains are still alive...

and thank you both for your replies!

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#270 of 457 Old 10-01-2008, 01:39 PM
 
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WuWei - is it possible to tolerate goat's milk yogurt or kefir when you can't tolerate goat's milk? we have a good source of raw milk (cow and goat) but since i have gone dairy free i called them and told them we wouldn't be picking up for at least a couple of months since we use so much less milk now and it's about a 45 minute drive one way. ds2 seemed to be reacting even when i was drinking goat's milk and from ghee too.
Each individual is different. Yes, cultured (goat or cow) milk is totally different than even raw (goat or cow) milk, less allergenic because of the prebiotics and enzymes in the fermented product.

I consumed no dairy while ds was nursing due to his intolerances. If I were to do it again, knowing about probiotics, which I didn't know ANYTHING then, I'd do raw goat's milk yogurt for me and give it to ds directly, frankly. And be totally strict on eliminating ANY other casein from our diet. And I'd drink kefir made from coconut water and give some to infant ds...IF I'd known then. After age 1, I'd definitely drink raw milk kefir (while nursing) and give it to ds. But, that is the most conservative route, imo. I'm inclined to consider raw milk kefir directly for an infant. Just a tablespoon a day would be huge for probiotic benefits. Just my opinion.

We had to eliminate soy, corn, dairy, wheat, cinnamon, broccoli, tomatoes, onions, etc. etc. for ds to quit reacting with mucus stools, red anus, vomiting, painful burps. Once we did, no other symptoms. So, a bit of raw goat's milk yogurt and Guernsey dairy kefir would have more benefits than negatives, I believe. It is a cumulative thing, and the probiotic benefits tip the balance, *I* believe.


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