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#511 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 04:59 AM
 
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I've been trying all different methods for nursing - the "super switch" to stimulate both breasts well (7 minutes alternating breasts, R/L/R and then the last one let him go as long as he wants), the 20 minutes each side, 40 minutes each side, unlimited feedings, etc. Nothing seems to make him very satisfied. Like this morning I fed him 40 minutes on each side until he got very sleepy (he won't come off on his own, will just fall asleep with the breast in his mouth). Then I fed him 20 ml of expressed breast milk and when he wakes up I will nurse again 40 minutes and 40 minutes or as long as he goes/as long as I can take it. Though my nipples and breasts are in MUCH better shape than they were a week ago, it's still a bit sore so I can't handle much more than 40 minutes on each side. I'm also trying to pump in between feedings so I can at least use expressed breast milk to top him off when he needs it rather than using formula.

I do realize that I'm a bit fixated on the clock, but that's because he doesn't ever seem full and doesn't come off the breast on his own whether it's after 20 minutes, 40 or even a full hour. And he's always hungry, even right after a feed. I just can't let him stay uncomfortable like that. He's also not had a poo in a day, and I read that less than 2 poos a day can be a sign that baby is not getting enough calories. Will go to Tipat Halav in an hour or so to weigh him and we'll see what the scale says.

He will take 40-50 ml of formula after a nursing run (we only give him formula about twice a day), and although I can express milk I can't express that much and clearly he needs more than I can give him. I always nurse before and after I give formula too.

I do appreciate your insight and will try to pay more attention to baby's signals and not to the clock. Good to know that other mothers have had the non-stop-nursing experience and that it could be normal. I just want to have a healthy and satified baby and we're still working on how best to make that happen.
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#512 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 07:28 AM
 
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I do appreciate your insight and will try to pay more attention to baby's signals and not to the clock. Good to know that other mothers have had the non-stop-nursing experience and that it could be normal. I just want to have a healthy and satified baby and we're still working on how best to make that happen.

Honestly, my point was that I didn't pay attention at all to baby's signals. I ignored the baby's signals totally. Could care less if they wanted to look around the room or lay on the bed or whatever else. Not their choice. I wanted them at the breast and there they stayed. And if they fell asleep at the breast, fine, they could stay there, and I'd wake 'em up after a little while and get them nursing again, whether they wanted to or not.



After a few months it's hard to get a baby who doesn't want to nurse to nurse, but at the early stages, well, they don't have much in the free will department.


(That was thoroughly incompatible with TCS, I know. )





My grandma had the "old-country" wisdom that said that "beer is good for nursing." I guess because it relaxes you or some such. (I miss my grandma very much today. Sigh.)






Anyway, best of luck to you and I hope it works well. And get as much sleep as you can ...
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#513 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 08:26 AM
 
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I really feel that the formula is detrimental to your nursing experience, espically so early in the game. Babies don't "need" to gain their birth weight for at least two weeks.

Some totally bf babies go days without pooping. My dd did it on occasion and my ds does it too. And then sometimes they poop alot. Totally normal.

dd was on the breast NON STOP. I MEAN, she never latched off, and she would have been on all day and all night if I let her...and for the first 9 months, I did. It made it impossible to go anywhere. I remember once I left for 30 min. That was a BIG strech without nursing for us and she was probably 3 or 4 months old at the time. DS is not like that at all. But he's a different kid. ANd what is normal for one is not necessarily for the other.

You have no idea how much milk he is getting from your breasts. PUmping is NOT ANY INDICATION about how much milk you have or how much he is getting. The fact that he gained his birthweight should be sign enough that he's gaining. Then it's not uncommon for bf babies to be VERY SLOW GAINERS. Could be genetics. DS didn't really start getting rolly polly until late in the game compared to dd. ALso, Tipat Chalav goes by the formula fed growth charts. Might want to reserach this and look at the WHO growth charts on this one.

Please call a few Le Leche League leaders (get their info on line and ask one for the phone number of someone else). I NEVER had any help with lactation consultants. They all said DD was nursing fine. But she wasn't. I had to do a lot of trial and error to figure out how to make it work for the both of us. THe most of our problems peaked around 3 months after her birth. It took that long!

Using ANY FORMULA AT ALL is dangerous to the baby and your milk supply. Dr. Sears, Mendleschon and many others are in agreement on this point. THe last thing I would do is give formula so early in the game, espically if the baby were not loosing drastic amounts of weight or showing signs of dehydration. And even then I might only use some sugar water in an emergency (which, I repeat is for an EMERGENCY and something that bli ayan ha ra I've never had to do with either child!) All of his sucking needs to be ON YOUR BREAST!!!

This means no pacifier. No bottle. Nada. Nothing. If he is taking abottle after the feeding then he can take your breast.

Don't change breasts. Let him go all the way on one until he falls asleep. Then switch him to the other side. Let him dose a bit. 10 min or so if you want (or longer if he's not loosing weight) and then give him that side until he's dozing. Then switch again.

I can't tell you how many HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS I did this sort of thing. I changed positions. Found dd nursed better when we were laying down. Helped a friend find that her dd nursed better while being propped up in a sitting position (no reflux issues).

He could be feeling unsatisfied because of gas, food sensitivity (to something YOU are eating) OR THE FORMULA!!! (totally normal for formula fed babies to go without pooping for periods of time too!)

I forget which dr was quoted as saying this, but he said that a baby with ONE BOTTLE of formula would be considered a formula fed baby because of the mess it makes of his ph balance/gut flora for TWO WHOLE WEEKS. That is one bottle of formula EVER...and certainly not TWO BOTTLES A DAY!

It's hard to trust. I wish you had some more support over there. NOt every baby nurses easily and well right away. It takes time, sometimes months.

Please find some people that you feel you can trust that will help you.

Again, the milk you make is totally dependant on the amount of sucking your baby does. If you let the baby suck ANYWHERE ELSE ( bottle, pacifier, finger) you are decreasing your milk supply.

Also, I DO believe you are making enough milk if you are able to PUMP milk out of your breasts. You absolutely have that capibility. of the less than 1% of women who are not able to make enough milk, the vast majority of them have risk factors. Breast surgery, etc...

Babies might cry alot, or look unhappy, or just want to eat and eat and eat until they puke and then eat again. Or suck suck suck. That is the nature of some babies. DD was like that and I just didn't know any better.

I've NEVER watched a clock. I would advise you to turn them all off. Just set up comfy places to nurse all over the house and DO NOTHING ELSE, as was mentioned.

That is really all a nursing mom can do sometimes. Been there. Hugs.

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#514 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 08:41 AM
 
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My grandma had the "old-country" wisdom that said that "beer is good for nursing." I guess because it relaxes you or some such. (I miss my grandma very much today. Sigh.)






Anyway, best of luck to you and I hope it works well. And get as much sleep as you can ...
Beer *is* good for milk supply, it's a (what is that thing that increases milk supply, it has a fancy word). Anyway it works like fennel, etc. The non alcholic beer also works. I drank some when I was nursing the twins and it did help.

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#515 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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My grandma had the "old-country" wisdom that said that "beer is good for nursing." I guess because it relaxes you or some such. (I miss my grandma very much today. Sigh.)





anon, Do you have a good baby carrier? If you have a baby carrier that you can nurse in, you might be able to move a little bit once he falls asleep, even if he wont' latch off. I'm also all for tossing the clock out the window. It doesn't matter how long he's nursing, so long as he is. Don't worry, it won't last forever, but now it's important that he be given as long as he needs.
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#516 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 02:47 PM
 
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We are giving the small amounts of formula via feeding tube - no bottles and no pacifiers.

Today I let him nurse and nurse and nurse and didn't watch the clock - he goes a really long time on the breast and occassionally I feel that I need a 20 minute break so I hand him off to DH or to my mother, and he stays content for a little while just sucking on a finger (can't keep his own hand in his mouth yet). I don't think that some sucking on a finger for a few minutes is affecting my milk supply so much. When he stops swallowing and just sucks at the breast, I usually switch him to the other side. When he falls asleep I try to wake him and if that doesn't work I let him sleep a bit and then put him back. He's been sleeping on my chest a lot lately - the skin contact is good and he's more comfortable on his stomach sometimes because of gas (and I won't put him to sleep on his stomach alone). I do think he's uncomfortable from the lack of pooping. On Tuesday he had one BM and then nothing since then. Incidentally, on Tuesday he was circumcised, so I think there is a connection.

I feel bad about the formula, but we are giving such small amounts and I hope to phase it out just as soon as I see an improvement in my supply. I just don't think that him being hungry all the time despite being on the breast A LOT benefits anyone. I see the formula as a temporary medicine for him and the goal is definitely to get back to exclusive BFing. At least I know the majority of his nutrition is coming from breastmilk; as to the damage formula is doing, aside from giving him some gas, I can't really say.

He gained some weight the past few days; about 100 grams so I am feeling better and less worried and more inclined to get rid of the formula. At 2 weeks and 1 day old he is 20 grams above his birth weight. The Tipat Halav people said that wasn't so good and that he should be gaining more, but the lactation counselor said it's fine and we should weigh him again on Sunday to make sure he is still gaining but that it seems he is on the right track.

I have a pouch carrier which I'm still getting used to, but I like it a lot so far (he's asleep in it right now). I hope that I can work up to nursing in it soon so that I can be a bit more mobile.
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#517 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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You have a nasogastric feeding tube in your babies nose? All of the time or are you taking it in and out?

Feeding tubes can cause major oral adversion, worsen reflux, increase the risk of pneumonias, and make swallowing harder.

I think that one of the reasons my baby is NOT nursing and will not eat by mouth is because of the tubes down his throat when he was in the pagia.

I think bottles are far far less evil that feeding tubes. I would take a bottle fed baby over a tube fed baby any day.

That said, sorry I have been so slow to reply. I find the Motilium works pretty quickly, within a day I see a supply increase.

to you. I know how hard feeding issues are.
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#518 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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(what is that thing that increases milk supply, it has a fancy word).
Galactagogue. And it's the hops in the beer I believe, which is why the non-alcoholic beer works too.
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#519 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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The Tipat Halav people said that wasn't so good and that he should be gaining more, but the lactation counselor said it's fine and we should weigh him again on Sunday to make sure he is still gaining but that it seems he is on the right track.
Bleh. Tipat Halav. The people who never met a baby without a problem . Seriously, their advice is generally worthless.
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#520 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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No, not tube in the nose! By feeding tube I mean a tube with one end going into the formula or breastmilk, the other in baby's mouth either by attaching in onto the breast (you know those supplemental feeding system things), or by putting it on your finger and letting baby suck the finger and getting the milk via the tube. It still involves the baby sucking to get his food and the benefit is that it involves no artificial nipples.
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#521 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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Bleh. Tipat Halav. The people who never met a baby without a problem . Seriously, their advice is generally worthless.
They met one. They were happy with Avraham Chaim when he was taking 150ccs a day. No one else was.

My healthy three year old they stressed me out about though and my SILs (healthy) kids are ALL on frequent weight checks or being told they are too heavy.
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#522 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 03:23 PM
 
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No, not tube in the nose! By feeding tube I mean a tube with one end going into the formula or breastmilk, the other in baby's mouth either by attaching in onto the breast (you know those supplemental feeding system things), or by putting it on your finger and letting baby suck the finger and getting the milk via the tube. It still involves the baby sucking to get his food and the benefit is that it involves no artificial nipples.
call it an SnS or finger feeding then. It is a totally different ball game.

We had to finger feed my oldest when she was tiny. She was born at 1800 and we got her fully nursing quickly, but before my milk came in I had to pump and finger feed in between nursing sessions.
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#523 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 05:16 PM
 
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Wow Anon you are getting aton of advice here, although a lot of it is good , it all comes from personal experiences and every baby and mommy is different. You are clearly dealing with a lot and are probably overwhelmed so first things first is not to beat yourself up. You are a new mom wih lots of hormones running through you and you are probably not getting a lot of sleep so give yourself a break. You should probably read everything and talk as much or as little as you want about all this and then start listening to your gut. So many times we want to do the right thing for our children that we stop trustimg our instincts and start doubting ourselves. The person who would probably be able to best help you is your lactation consultant or counselor. If you feel her advice is not helping maybe look for another one. There are many in Israel some more qualified than others. My best friend is a lactation counselor (she happens to be amazing - from personal experience and also from all the feedback I ahve heard about her). She is constantly telling me that one of the biggest problems is the free advice given out. Though a lot of the advice may be good some of it is not. Lactation counselors and consultants have to study and have to fulfill many hourswith mom's and babes. They are qualified to answer these questions and deal with the peoblems and if they can't they should be referiong you to somenone who can. Most Tipat Halav nurses have none or minimal training in breast feeding and are really not qualified to answer your breastfeeding problems. They measure babies according to charts that are usual built around formula fed babies.
If you need a name of a good lactation consultant I know of a few that are excellent. (My friend is in the states right now but i know some of her colleagues).

Good Luck and try and rest a bit.

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#524 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 05:23 PM
 
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Jul511riv we could probably get up by you sometime in Sep. Do you know of any other people who would be interested in a workshop? Would you be interested in a hebrew or english workshop? You can e-mail me at ds@dahliasdiapers.com. Thanks for the interest!!! We have to get more babies in cloth in Israel!

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#525 of 1781 Old 08-09-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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I agree, and I could get a group together in Tzfat, likely. I already have another interested person. If you do it on a Friday early afternoon would be good for the dads to come too. Maybe the center for healthy living (I've never been there.)

Let me know if you need help.

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#526 of 1781 Old 08-11-2007, 01:13 PM
 
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Thank you Dahlia. Probably the best advice I've gotten so far.

I think the lactation consultant I'm working with is good and the nice thing about the center there is that they have the backup of a doctor, and one who is specialized in breastfeeding issues, but do send along some other names of lactation people - always good to have options. I am also getting the LLL meetings info and a friend with a three month old baby is interested in going with me.

Yesterday and today were better for all three of us, and we didn't need to use any formula! I think the Motillium is working; I didn't start leaking like I heard some women do, but baby is eating better, seems full and feedings don't take 2 hours anymore (at least hasn't for the past 36 hours; who knows if that will continue).
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#527 of 1781 Old 08-12-2007, 04:08 AM
 
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Dahlia, well said.
anon, that's a great update, I hope it gets even better very soon.
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#528 of 1781 Old 08-14-2007, 05:42 PM
 
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Next Wednesday August 22nd at 10:00 am in Tel Aviv we will be hosting our first workshop.

We will be discussing: wait…. what exactly are cloth diapers and how do they work???
What are the advantages to cloth (and the disadvantages of disposables)?
What cloth diapers are available in Israel?
How many diapers do you need?
Which diapers are perfect for you and your baby?
How to care for your diapers?
What’s the cost of cloth diapering?
How to make the transition from disposables to cloth?
And much more…..

There will also be an opportunity to try diapers on that are sold in Israel to see the fit and feel the fabric.
Discounts will be given on diapers purchased at the workshop.

The fee for the workshop is voluntary; everyone pays what they are able to (suggested price is 25 NIS). There will be a cash box at the door.
To ensure that everyone gets personal attention there is limited room, please confirm your attendance.
For more information you can e-mail us at:
chitulim@gmail.com
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#529 of 1781 Old 08-15-2007, 03:18 AM
 
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time for tzfat!

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#530 of 1781 Old 08-16-2007, 09:20 PM
 
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jul'riv, how close are you to Tzfat, anyway? We're there (here ) now. Came for the music (friends/khevra of ours played in the Klezmer Festival ... despite not being Klezmer musicians ...) and staying for Shabbos.

And how's it going where you are, anyway? Are you settling in there for sure? Any timetables involved?


Inquiring minds want to know.

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#531 of 1781 Old 08-18-2007, 07:56 PM
 
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aorry ia have been so slow to reply, but if your baby is uncomfortable from the beginning then it is likely that you have something in your diet that is upsetting him. I would cut out dairy immidiately. also if you dont have a high enough fat diet you will likely have trouoble making milk, the type of fat that mothersmilk is mosly composed of is DHA so your pharmacy should carry fish oil supplements. I take 3 a day, also vitmilk is the name of an herbal supplement made by biovit. it helps my milk suppply drastically. also if your baby has been exposed to formula, have you read about the risks of formula? there is just no comparison to your milk, you might want to look into it and consider making your own. i dont want to freak you out, so sorry about my alarmed tone, but 2bottles of formula is way dift than 2 nursings, cows milk protteins take a long time to break down 3the3y
are lon
ger than human
3 milk 621p1roteins. 0. ok3 3.my

1 1
/32363.
ba
by 0......is. tpingh
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#532 of 1781 Old 08-21-2007, 10:30 AM
 
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Just a reminder that tommorrow at 10:00 am is the cloth diaper workshop in Tel-Aviv. If anyone is planning to come please confirm by e-mail; chitulim@gmail.com as room is limited. Babies and children are welcome (of course) Hope to see some of you there.

Dahlia & Hagit
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#533 of 1781 Old 08-23-2007, 05:26 PM
 
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anon, how are you doing?
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#534 of 1781 Old 08-23-2007, 07:16 PM
 
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anyone know if prostalizing in Israel is legal (as in Christians trying to convert Jews)? Can someone cite me a law...in English or Hebrew...something...some link online about this or anything that refers to this.

I think we've spotted a Jews For Jesus kind of situation.

Thanks.

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#535 of 1781 Old 08-24-2007, 06:32 AM
 
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anon, how are you doing?

Yeah, that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jul511riv View Post
anyone know if prostalizing in Israel is legal (as in Christians trying to convert Jews)? Can someone cite me a law...in English or Hebrew...something...some link online about this or anything that refers to this.

I think we've spotted a Jews For Jesus kind of situation.

Thanks.

Proselytizing itself isn't but particular aspects of it are, such as material inducements to convert, etc. If you contact either (a) your local rabbanut or (b) an organization that I think is called Yad l'Akhim, they should be able to steer you in the right direction.
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#536 of 1781 Old 08-26-2007, 04:25 AM
 
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Yad leachim should be able to help you.
http://www.yadleachim.co.il/Index.asp?CategoryID=87
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#537 of 1781 Old 08-26-2007, 08:09 AM
 
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this is a warning. i hope no one here is offended but minsali wrap slings suck! the wrap is not wide enough to hold the baby in and the fabric is too stretchy and it sags. if you want to buy an israeli wrap buy a tinokis, in the north you can buy from me and i can give you the name of someone in j-lem and rbs who sell them if you are closer to there. (there are other brands that i cant vouch for.)

2 more cool nfl things in israel:
1- in yediot this shabbos there was an artice about the evils of food coloring.

2-home centers is now selling cast iron cookware.
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#538 of 1781 Old 08-26-2007, 09:05 AM
 
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Gila, do you mean the minsari sold in Shilav? It really isn't as good as the tinokis.

I also say there are so many different kinds of baby carriers out there, it's good to have more than one.
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#539 of 1781 Old 08-26-2007, 10:52 AM
 
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So if you cook with cast iron cookware, do you get more iron in your food? (For those of us usually borderline anemic ...)
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#540 of 1781 Old 08-26-2007, 02:20 PM
 
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yes you do.

 http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Wise-Woman-Fertility/182752565080597
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