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#1 of 36 Old 12-12-2008, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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my friend's son is in day care and she gets every vaccine for him on time, and does whatever her pediatrician tells her to do. I have told her that I dont vax, that it is dangerous, and she basically looks at me like I have 3 heads.

so, her 12 month old, who is in daycare, was breastfed until 7 months old and then went to formula. he is constantly sick, most recently with ear infections, and today with diarhrea (sorry for spelling)

so i want to know, is this really because she vaxes, and is ruining his immune system (in my opinion) , or is it because he is in daycare.......

because so far, knock on wood, my son is healty, still breastfed at 17 months, and stays at home with dad, and has not had a cold in 8 months and no vaxes for 8 months - I gave him a few in the beginning

is this the difference in parenting styles and the choices we make for our children in full effect or a coincedence that has nothing to do with the vaxing?

thanks-
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#2 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 12:17 AM
 
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It's the vaccines, not day care.

Although certain vaccines do actually provide protection compared to others, their cost is a weakened immune system overall to everything else.

That is the main reason why I still refuse the vaccines that I know to work more often than not.


And of course I refuse all the other vaccines that don't impress me with their efficacy.

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#3 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 12:35 AM
 
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imo it's the vaccines and formula feeding plus the medicine she gives him because of the problems caused by the first two things. All together it is ruining the child's health. Happens more and more.
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#4 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 12:37 AM
 
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I think it is probably a combo of the fact that she has vaxed, doesn't breast feed any longer and has the child in daycare. not that makes her a bad mom at all, it is just that all those things can lead to a sicker child.

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#5 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 07:23 AM
 
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I'd say it's a combo of all these factors.

Not vaccinating, long term b'feeding, being responsible for your child's care etc are all great, but don't guarantee ill free times. And vice versa. I have a fully vaxing friend who went back to work, preemie baby on formula after about 3 weeks old, and her daughter is SO STRONG!!!! but we still try and make optimal choices

My Nan is in her 80's and smokes like crazy, but she can keep the cigarettes away from me and mine. Other ppl are smoke free and have chronic lung problems etc etc

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#6 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 10:54 AM
 
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Now that I have more time to type an answer...

The strength of the immune system is going to be determined by the development of a baby's gut flora, or bacteria in the GI tract.

We evolved only until recently in the modern age by being born vaginally, without any antibiotics, nursing exclusively until we showed interest in eating, and of course, without vaccination.

I made those choices for my daughter and she has an immune system that astounds me when she, DH, and I get the same virus.

So it isn't really daycare, it is all of those things that could have attributed to a sickly child. Not passing strong gut flora onto a baby during birth, not exclusively breastfeeding from the start, getting vaccines, taking antibiotics, stuffing a child with rice cereal too early...all of these things are going to inhibit the growth of gut flora and the foundation of a persons diverse bacteria, the base of the immune system.

daycare will expose a child to many viruses more quickly, but the child who has a strong immune system won't fall with every virus that passes through the group.

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#7 of 36 Old 12-13-2008, 11:47 AM
 
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Now that I have more time to type an answer...

The strength of the immune system is going to be determined by the development of a baby's gut flora, or bacteria in the GI tract.

We evolved only until recently in the modern age by being born vaginally, without any antibiotics, nursing exclusively until we showed interest in eating, and of course, without vaccination.

I made those choices for my daughter and she has an immune system that astounds me when she, DH, and I get the same virus.

So it isn't really daycare, it is all of those things that could have attributed to a sickly child. Not passing strong gut flora onto a baby during birth, not exclusively breastfeeding from the start, getting vaccines, taking antibiotics, stuffing a child with rice cereal too early...all of these things are going to inhibit the growth of gut flora and the foundation of a persons diverse bacteria, the base of the immune system.

daycare will expose a child to many viruses more quickly, but the child who has a strong immune system won't fall with every virus that passes through the group.

I agree with PP's....It is the vaccines and the formula IMO. Daycare can't make a child sickly. Daycare will just expose a child to more junk, but it is the child's immune system that determines if they will constantly be ill or not and the vaxes and the formula tax the immune system.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#8 of 36 Old 12-15-2008, 05:12 PM
 
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My dd isn't vaxed and when she started going to a weekly activity with other toddlers, she started getting sick constantly. She's been sick for months now (on and off) and just had her first (double!) ear infection. First time she's needed antibiotics.

She's getting it from playing with other kids just once a week. She was breastfed for 19 mos and is otherwise healthy. So I do think that just the exposure to the germs can make a kid sick; after all, I'm living it.

In your friend's case, I would say it's a combination of factors (vaxes, formula, and daycare) while counting vaxes as the lowest in terms of causality.
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#9 of 36 Old 12-15-2008, 05:33 PM
 
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Formula and antibiotics are not doing any immune system any good. I am not sure that the frequency with which an infant is sick is necessarily a measure of the health of the immune system....

I do have a friend with a son one day younger than my DS who has had every vaccine on schedule, is formula fed and I do not know how many antibiotics he has had so far (*lots*). He is not in day care. However, he is often running a fever and coughing and sneezing and having diarrhea.

DS so far has had one cold, EBF, no vax and now starting with organic solids. But my DS is our first child. I am sure had he had older siblings or been in day care he would have been sick more frequently. Which I do not think I would have necessarily assumed is a bad thing.... : Back to the idea that I am not sure that healthy children never get sick, but rather they get over the illnesses more quickly and don't get all sorts of complications.

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#10 of 36 Old 12-15-2008, 05:38 PM
 
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I think it is probably a combo of the fact that she has vaxed, doesn't breast feed any longer and has the child in daycare. not that makes her a bad mom at all, it is just that all those things can lead to a sicker child.
That.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#11 of 36 Old 12-15-2008, 08:27 PM
 
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My dd isn't vaxed and when she started going to a weekly activity with other toddlers, she started getting sick constantly. She's been sick for months now (on and off) and just had her first (double!) ear infection. First time she's needed antibiotics.

She's getting it from playing with other kids just once a week. She was breastfed for 19 mos and is otherwise healthy. So I do think that just the exposure to the germs can make a kid sick; after all, I'm living it.

In your friend's case, I would say it's a combination of factors (vaxes, formula, and daycare) while counting vaxes as the lowest in terms of causality.
I have to agree. I do not vax my kids and bf my almost 3 yr old until he was two and he was sick all last winter. Probably sicker than my older son who I did not bf for as long. I will say it's possible that my younger son is dealing with allergies and not just sickness. He has dairy allergies and also some indoor and outdoor allergies that we have not pin pointed yet. Both of my boys had acid reflux as babies also. Go figure.
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#12 of 36 Old 12-15-2008, 11:30 PM
 
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I think some people are born healthier then others. While I like bfing, not all women are able to produce, I was one of them. I was able to ebf for 4 months to my preemie twins before I had to stop. I don't think it's quite fair to blame all these different factors as they all or none could be the reason. We all know that bfing is best, non vaxing is best, and no day care is best but there are many, many children that have been on formula from day 1, fully vaxed, and in daycare that are healthy as a horse.

My ff preemies, non vaxed, non daycare kids are the healthiest kids I know. I do attribute some to the fact that they are not vaxed and did manage to get 4 months of mama's milk, but my dh and I have good immune systems and I believe we passed this on to them. They have never had anything more then a runny nose while teething. Never had a drop of antibotics. They haven't had a cold since last halloween.

We also make sure that they eat a good, organic diet full of fruits and veggies. I do believe this plays a role as well. Many kids are eating chicken nuggets and french fries for lunch whereas my kids are getting organic rice and fresh fruit. Everything little thing does count.

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#13 of 36 Old 12-16-2008, 01:29 AM
 
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I don't think you can discount the fact that the child is in daycare and as such is exposed to many more illnesses than if he was at home.
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#14 of 36 Old 12-16-2008, 09:58 AM
 
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sounds like the little guy is in the perfect storm for getting sick often, but I do think alot of it is just exposure to more bugs. My DD who was on formula and did get vaxed never got sick as a baby, and now my non vaxed baby has had a half dozen colds since he made it here, mostly because his sister who is into everything keeps bringing it home. (and she isn't even in daycare, just going out and doing normal kid stuff)

the good news is that he fights it off like a champ, but when I had DD and wasn't going out near other kids and had her on me all day, it was so much easier to keep the germy germs away.

I read somewhere (and can't remember where though) that there are a couple dozen common viruses we all have to run through once we arrive on the planet, every kid is going to get them at some point. How they handle it depends on how we take care of them (and if they are really healthy we might not even know when they are) but that pretty much no matter what we do kids are going to be sick some during childhood.

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#15 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 02:37 PM
 
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Definitely daycare, in combination with formula feeding. Formula doesn't provide any natural immunity and daycares (no matter how clean) are a breeding ground for germs. In a lower SES daycare there also seem to be more illnesses. Have 3 children, 1 is now in public school. I stopped nursing her at 12 mos. and she was constantly sick her first year in daycare with recurring ear infections. She was not fully vaccinated on time, this made no difference. My 2nd I fed until I about 2, she was always vaccinated on time and she also didn't seem naturally susceptible to ear infections or other illnesses. She would commonly show signs of minimal colds and I would up her nursing sessions and they would disappear. My 3rd is still nursing and in daycare, he has had delayed vaccinations- is 16 months but only completed through 8 month shots- he is rarely sick enough to go to the doctor but will more commonly get the stomach viruses that go around. Usually he gets a cold after others in his class at daycare. Sometimes in our family he is the only healthy one!

I mean, you put a small group of kids together that love putting things in their mouth and touching everything, they are definitely going to spread a lot of germs! I see breastfeeding as more of a boost to immunity but it isn't foolproof, it definitely helps a lot but it can't prevent everything. My oldest, who was sick a lot her first year of daycare is now 7 and is rarely ever sick. She took more sick days last year for a bout with head lice than for common colds or viruses!
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#16 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 02:46 PM
 
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I wouldn't think that either of these choices were a definite cause. He could have allergies, he could have an immune disorder, he could have been on antibiotics too many times to have a strong immune system. I know children who are fully vaxed and in daycare who are never sick and some who are sick all the time. I also know children who are not vaxed, or at least delayed and are sick all the time, and vice versa. I think one could make a *general* assumption but there are so many variables to consider.

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#17 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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It's the vaccines, not day care.
Really, then how do you explain my DD getting sick alot in day care and she is not vaccinated (1 DTaP though) and is still breastfed at 21 months? I seriously doubt that one vaccine over a year and a half ago is making her more vulnerable to colds and mild fevers that she gets.
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#18 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 05:31 PM
 
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Daycare can't make a child sickly. Daycare will just expose a child to more junk,
Well, do you have a child in day care? Let's say a larger one with infant room through pre-school? I did and my daughter was sick ALL the time. We were all sick. I moved her to a small home day care and she is MUCH healthier. She had occasion to go back to the other day care for a week and after day one, she was sick again.

Having been around this day care for over 14 months, and seeing the illness sweep through the facility, I think all the kids are much more sickly being there. They are both exposed more and get sicker.

I have heard it said alot that kids who stay at home and then enter pre-k or kinder get sick as they previously hadn't been exposed. The day care kids are just getting it alot sooner.
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#19 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 10:28 PM
 
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Really, then how do you explain my DD getting sick alot in day care and she is not vaccinated (1 DTaP though) and is still breastfed at 21 months? I seriously doubt that one vaccine over a year and a half ago is making her more vulnerable to colds and mild fevers that she gets.
Read my later post when I had more time to type. What factors may have weakened your daughter's gut flora? Did you take anti-biotics during pregnancy and did you have them during birth? Has she ever had antibiotics since birth? Was she vaginally birthed?

There are so many ways for children to have something interfere with their immune system's development...

I just wonder when public health and pediatricians will realize what isn't working and how we contributed to a generation of immunocompromised children.

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#20 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 11:05 PM
 
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When our DS1 was in daycare, he was fully vaxed on schedule, but received only breastmilk because I pumped for him. He was very sickly, with chronic diarrhea, reflux, respiratory infections, ear infections, you name it. And I finally had to quit working because of his health and my attendance issues at work.

He was in a large daycare with 11 other infants, and something like 24 toddlers and 24 preschoolers in other rooms. The other infants in the room were also vaxed on schedule (because the center required it), and all of them were on formula. And they were hardly ever sick !!! Our DS was the only sickly one there.

What we didn't know at the time was that our son had an undiagnosed dairy allergy. And it was making him very sick. When we finally got rid of all dairy when he was almost two, his health improved quite a bit. His gut was also a mess from all the medications he had received, and he had mercury issues as well. To get him all the way healthy we had to get rid of the mercury, and the yeast, and get his gut flora stabilized, and supplement some things. After all that, he has become robustly healthy !!

So, it could be a combination of things. Out of a room full of fully vaxed and formula fed kids, ours was fully breastfed and the only sickly one. He had an allergy we didn't know about, and I believe a susceptibility to mercury we didn't know about, and a broken detoxing system, and a poor immune system, probably because he was given "preventative" antibiotics from birth to age four months until his kidney surgery. Then with more and more drugs for the infections and the reflux and the respiratory issues it all just piled up on him and snowballed. It wasn't just the daycare and the vaxing. I think they contributed...but if it could all be blamed on daycare, vaxing, and formula, the other 11 kids would have been sickly too......

I'm happy to say our DS2 has had no daycare, no vaxes, and was only on abx after his appendix ruptured. And other than that happening, he's been fabulously healty

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#21 of 36 Old 12-29-2008, 11:27 PM
 
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What is she feeding him besides the formula? If she listens to her doc., he should probably be mostly eating solids and on milk by now. A poor diet can cause problems as well as vaccines.
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#22 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 12:46 AM
 
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DS attends the preshool where I work and has not been vaccinated and was nursed just untill recently (27 mos).
He has never had an ear infection.. but he does catch a cold probably once a month (only during the school year though). I think being around other kids has alot to do with it.
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#23 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 01:04 AM
 
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It's still daycare. Even if it's all of the above, kids get sick in daycare, or sunday school, or the McDonald's playland.

Kids get sick, because other parents send their child to daycare (sunday school mcdonald's) with a cough, or fever, or anything else they decide isn't important enough to keep them home for.

Parents tell me all the time "She's just teething". One parent told me "it's her four year molars" (she's 18 months old)

Kids catch things from other kids. But, the advantage to catching it while they are little is usually their immunities are built up by school age and they don't get sick as often as a kid who has never been sick.

My best friend's child was vaccinated. He was never breast fed. He was in my daycare from four weeks on, he ate a HORRIBLE diet. He literally ate hotdogs every night for four years. Yet, he was never sick. He never missed school because of illness. (i'm very jealous of him)

My own kid, was and still is the sickest child I have ever seen. She has had even bizarre illnesses that make the doctors go and bring in other doctors. She's had West Nile virus, and menengitis, and had her tonsils out at 9 months old.. she is just a very sickly kid.

The only thing I can think of is the MMR. She was fine until the MMR. I don't fully understand it yet. But, that is the only thing I can remember that stands out in my mind as being a turning point.

I want to know what happened, I really do, but nobody seems to know why she's so sick all the time. I wish I could go back and re-do everything.
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#24 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 01:42 AM
 
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I can't tell you, honestly, because my two kids are like night and day. DD is in preschool three mornings a week, karate twice a week. I've been a SAHM since she was born (4.5y). DS is 10 months old and on his second nasty cold in less than two months. No daycare, no vaccines for either kid, DD breastfed for 10 months, DS still BFIng. So who knows?

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#25 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 03:07 AM
 
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I can't tell you, honestly, because my two kids are like night and day. DD is in preschool three mornings a week, karate twice a week. I've been a SAHM since she was born (4.5y). DS is 10 months old and on his second nasty cold in less than two months. No daycare, no vaccines for either kid, DD breastfed for 10 months, DS still BFIng. So who knows?

Jenn
Same with us. My DD1 gets sick here and there, no big deal. My DD2 is always ill, the child just does not go longer then 1.5 weeks between illnesses, I call her my walking petri dish.

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#26 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 11:36 AM
 
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My DD2 is always ill, the child just does not go longer then 1.5 weeks between illnesses, I call her my walking petri dish.
I know this is SO wrong for me to think...

But, I am glad someone else has a child like this. My dd is 16 and it hasn't gotten any better. It just feels good to know that other's have a walking petri dish.

Misery loves company.:
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#27 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 11:42 AM
 
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It's a combination of factors- the no longer breastfeeding, the vaccines, the antibiotic use, the daycare/exposure to more germs, plus his own innate tendencies.

Even when you "do everything right" some kids just get sick more than others. There are FF, fully vaxed kids who never get sick, and there are EBF, unvaccinated, unmedicated babies who catch everything that goes around. You can do everything in your power to strengthen your children's immune systems and make them the healthiest they can be, but there are no guarantees.

In general, the more you strengthen the child's immune system, the less that child will get sick and the less serious any illnesses will be- but again the "reduced illnesses" is going to be a different number for different kids.

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#28 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 01:55 PM
 
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I think try as people like to create a formula for the healthy kid (no vaccines, stay at home, breastfed, organic food, etc) the bottom line is health can be unpredictable and not always easy to manage or control.

I was formula fed, SAH, and vaccinated (according to the schedule 43 years ago). Same for my brother and sister. I used to refuse to eat veggies and was never sick. My brother and sister ate much better but were alway sick. Three siblings all with different eating habits, eating the same stuff, treated the same (formula and at home) but all with very different health histories.
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#29 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 03:20 PM
 
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So it isn't really daycare, it is all of those things that could have attributed to a sickly child. Not passing strong gut flora onto a baby during birth, not exclusively breastfeeding from the start, getting vaccines, taking antibiotics, stuffing a child with rice cereal too early...all of these things are going to inhibit the growth of gut flora and the foundation of a persons diverse bacteria, the base of the immune system.

daycare will expose a child to many viruses more quickly, but the child who has a strong immune system won't fall with every virus that passes through the group.
I don't think that's entirely fair. I breastfed my now 16MO exclusively until 7/8 months, when we gradually began baby-led weaning (never did cereal or "baby food"), still breastfeed her at least a few times a day and at night. She is not vaccinated, has never had antibiotics. She takes SA and cod liver oil almost every day and has never had any sweets, not even a bite, in her entire life. She rarely eats meat, and eats tons of veggies and fruit and whole grains, and most of it is organic.

She never had a single illness for her first year when she stayed with Grandma when I was at work, not even a little cold. She started daycare fulltime at 13 months and since then she's been sick every two to three weeks. It's always just colds or little fevers, but she still gets sick pretty often and stays sick for about a week each time. Kids in daycare just get sick sometimes, no matter what you've done to help their immune system.
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#30 of 36 Old 12-30-2008, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by xmasbaby7 View Post
Read my later post when I had more time to type. What factors may have weakened your daughter's gut flora? Did you take anti-biotics during pregnancy and did you have them during birth? Has she ever had antibiotics since birth? Was she vaginally birthed?

There are so many ways for children to have something interfere with their immune system's development...

I just wonder when public health and pediatricians will realize what isn't working and how we contributed to a generation of immunocompromised children.
And to follow on to my last post (just saw this one) - I did not take any medication at all during my pregnancy or labor or in the 2-3 years preceeding or since she was born and breastfeeding (I mean no antibiotics, no Advil, no nothing). My DD has never had antibiotics and she was vaginally birthed at home.

I do agree that all those things could have an effect, but even without any of them (as in my case), my DD, who is in a large daycare, still gets sick every 2-3 weeks. Sometimes it's just daycare, even though parents make the best choices, so please don't just assume that the parents could have tried harder.
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