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#31 of 42 Old 12-27-2008, 10:27 PM
 
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Because they are not doctors at all. There is no evidence (except anecdotal) that either modality works. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that shows the only benefit is placebo effect (read http://www.trickortreatment.com/) At the very best, chiropractors deal with back/neck problems and naturopaths use unfounded "natural" cures for disease that may or may not provide some relief for a minority of patients who would have gotten better anyway or who are prone to the placebo effect.
I consider some MDs qualified to speak as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
What makes them "unfounded"? The proof is in the people for whom these remedies have worked wonders. To say that they probably would have gotten better anyway is a flimsy argument, to say the least, as the same argument can be applied to allopathic remedies as well.
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#32 of 42 Old 12-27-2008, 10:40 PM
 
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....and naturopaths use unfounded "natural" cures for disease that may or may not provide some relief for a minority of patients who would have gotten better anyway or who are prone to the placebo effect.
Same with many allopathic medicines. The cough medicine they have been selling for decades for kids have NO effect on the cough. Most of the other medicine they have work on SOME people only and often times only so long. Most antibiotic will not stand up to MRSA, so why bother...

Many of the medicines allopathic docs give can kill you or damage you for life.
Most NDs use nutrition and herbs to heal. Those healing aids have been used for thousands of years and have been proven successful. They are being suppressed by pharmaceutical corporations because of it. Allopathic medicine's goal is not 'cures' - their goal is in increase in patients.


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I consider some MDs qualified to speak as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
How so? They have learned NOTHING about vaccines except that they have saved us from extinction (which is not so btw). Every chart they are shown in med school starts basically the year vaccines were introduced to the present. How bias is that? They are given 'conclusions' of vaccine trials and not enough time to read any studies. They memorize the conclusions and believe that it's the gospel.
Why would you ever trust someone who knows NOTHING about vaccines except what the vaccine manufacture promulgates?
Vaccines are big business. The manufacturer is in it for one purpose only and that is money. It has never been a business about health and healing. Not from the very start. They only way they can keep selling their wares is to keep everyone on drugs.

Why not at least take a look at the opposite side?

So what if healing is a result of the placebo effect? It is healting just the same. And it is healing in the most profound way. So what if we drink teas and they do no good? As long as they do no harm, so what? The body has the chance to recuperate and get back to its natural state, isn't that what our goal should be?

Interference with the healing process is what is dangerous. And all drugs do that. Without exception. I would try any other types of healing before using dangerous drugs.

The only exception is a trauma case. Emergency medicine is excellent and I would never hesitate to make use of that.
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#33 of 42 Old 12-27-2008, 10:56 PM
 
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This is what seriously infuriates me about what my young, pregnant relative did. Rather than say, "ok, let me do some thinking on it and discuss with my DH," it seems that she just went ahead and did it :
Why would she need to ask her DH's opinion or permission regarding her decision to get the flu shot? Just because it is a decision you disagree with does not mean that she should consult with others in the family before she made her own decision. She is an adult correct?
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#34 of 42 Old 12-27-2008, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by luvmi4 View Post
Because they are not doctors at all. There is no evidence (except anecdotal) that either modality works. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that shows the only benefit is placebo effect (read http://www.trickortreatment.com/) At the very best, chiropractors deal with back/neck problems and naturopaths use unfounded "natural" cures for disease that may or may not provide some relief for a minority of patients who would have gotten better anyway or who are prone to the placebo effect.

I consider some MDs qualified to speak as to the safety and efficacy of vaccines.
You are quite wrong about chiropractors. They are doctors licensed in all 50 states. Their education includes nutrition, immunology, and physiology. They treat the body through manipulation of the spine but their treatments don't just target those areas. If you take some time to do some research you will find scientific studies of chiropractic care for colic, arthritis, allergies, gastrointestinal disorders, etc. Perhaps you don't personally like chiropractors but that certainly doesn't lend credence to your statements.

Unfortunately I don't live in a state that licenses NDs but I don't see how you could call their treatments "unfounded" considering their proven effectiveness. Allopaths dispense aspirin - where do you think they got that drug? From homeopathic use of white willow bark. Allopathic care borrows much from naturopathic care which has been around far longer.
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#35 of 42 Old 12-27-2008, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why would she need to ask her DH's opinion or permission regarding her decision to get the flu shot? Just because it is a decision you disagree with does not mean that she should consult with others in the family before she made her own decision. She is an adult correct?
Of course, you're correct she is an adult, and can do exactly as she chooses. However, based on many issues in the past she has generally, at least, consulted with DH about these things. IME, it seems to make sense to not make a decision in haste or because you feel you're on the spot, like at a doc's office. I guess my main point being that I would have liked for her to make an informed, unbiased, decision. Since she has chosen an allopathic OB I do not think the information presented was neither informed or unbiased.

An example, when I was pregnant with DS my doc was ready to go and do an amnioscentisis (sp?) at one of my visits. At that point I didn't know anything about it other than what my doc said that they insert a needle and take out some fluid to check for certain things. Something inside of me told me not to do it, and I didn't. After researching and talking with other professionals about it I'm so glad I did decide to not do this procedure. There were more risks involved than I was lead to believe at the doc's office.

Kate, Wife to DH and Mommy to a 5yo lovin' DS; three angels 4/08 9/08 3/10 in Heaven,
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#36 of 42 Old 12-28-2008, 02:29 AM
 
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Even if chiros only work on the spine and neck, all parts of the body are interconnected.

My Dad has a disorder where he makes too many blood platelets, and by getting chiropractic work his blood levels have gone down to what an allopathic medication would make them go down to. His hematologist is pleased and says, "I don't know how it works, but keep doing what you're doing."

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#37 of 42 Old 12-28-2008, 01:23 PM
 
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Since we're in the vax forum please remain on topic regarding vaccines. If you would like to further discuss healthcare options such as homeopathy or chiropractic care, please do so in our Health & Healing forum. Thanks!
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#38 of 42 Old 12-29-2008, 06:14 PM
 
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Many of the chiro's I know, who btw generally don't vax their own kiddos, often attend professional conferences, read scholarly journals, and generally keep up with both sides of the vax issue especially since it's such a hot topic. So I would give them a little credit for the information they can give to patients.
Well, the association that regulates chiropractors here in Canada, (that is their own self regulating association) has stated quite clearly that they are NOT to give professional opinions on vaccination as part of their practice, that it is not part of their area of expertise, and that they will be disciplined if they do. I can read a medical journal, but I am surely not qualified to give some kind of professional assessment on the literature.

As for MDs qualifications, remember that medical school curricula are only a part of their education, they also have an undergraduate degree and time spent as residents, interns, etc. Plus, they are supposed to spend time reading professional literature on whatever topics they need in their practices. Of course, some are dumb, or lazy, and even a good doctor can't be on the cutting edge in every area, so to some extent will rely on current best practice recommendations. But he or she will have a good idea of where to look in the scientific literature if a patient asks.

FWIW, most doctors I have met are also aware of the problems related to drug company literature, and try to overcome it as much as possible, unfortunately it isn't always easy to get any other info on new drugs.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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#39 of 42 Old 12-29-2008, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, the association that regulates chiropractors here in Canada, (that is their own self regulating association) has stated quite clearly that they are NOT to give professional opinions on vaccination as part of their practice, that it is not part of their area of expertise, and that they will be disciplined if they do. I can read a medical journal, but I am surely not qualified to give some kind of professional assessment on the literature.

As for MDs qualifications, remember that medical school curricula are only a part of their education, they also have an undergraduate degree and time spent as residents, interns, etc. Plus, they are supposed to spend time reading professional literature on whatever topics they need in their practices. Of course, some are dumb, or lazy, and even a good doctor can't be on the cutting edge in every area, so to some extent will rely on current best practice recommendations. But he or she will have a good idea of where to look in the scientific literature if a patient asks.

FWIW, most doctors I have met are also aware of the problems related to drug company literature, and try to overcome it as much as possible, unfortunately it isn't always easy to get any other info on new drugs.
Honestly, I'm not familiar with what the US organization thinks regarding that. Maybe some chiros or DW's of chiro's can chime in on that.

However, I do know that there has been several books published by chiros regarding vaccination issues. So I know at least they're giving their opinions through the written word. I personally know of four that will speak out fiercely against vaccination if a patient asks.

I guess the bottom line is parents or patients (in the case of my relative) need to be comfortable with what they're doing. I think the more information that you have from a variety of sources will allow someone to then make such a decision.

Kate, Wife to DH and Mommy to a 5yo lovin' DS; three angels 4/08 9/08 3/10 in Heaven,
waitin' for my baby

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#40 of 42 Old 12-29-2008, 09:50 PM
 
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I have a daycare in my home. Last year, all but two of the kids got the flu shot. ALL of the kids got the flu. ALL of the families got the flu. (there is apparently a test for the flu LOL)

Last winter was a nightmare of a season. I'm still traumatized.

This year, all but two of the kids got the flu shot. Nobody has even had so much as a cold so far.

I have never had a flu shot, yet I never get the flu. Not even when all the kids have the flu. My husband has never had a flu shot, but he had the flu last year. My dd has never had the flu shot, and she's never had the flu. (she's had everything else though)

My Mother in law gets a flu shot, and she never gets the flu... but she never leaves the house, and nobody ever goes in her house... so I don't know why she bothers with it.
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#41 of 42 Old 12-29-2008, 09:59 PM
 
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I have a daycare in my home. Last year, all but two of the kids got the flu shot. ALL of the kids got the flu. ALL of the families got the flu. (there is apparently a test for the flu LOL)

.
The flu shot was next to useless last year. The strain in the shot was not a good match for the virus that ended up circulating.
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#42 of 42 Old 12-30-2008, 12:05 PM
 
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I have a daycare in my home. Last year, all but two of the kids got the flu shot. ALL of the kids got the flu. ALL of the families got the flu. (there is apparently a test for the flu LOL)

Last winter was a nightmare of a season. I'm still traumatized.

This year, all but two of the kids got the flu shot. Nobody has even had so much as a cold so far.

I have never had a flu shot, yet I never get the flu. Not even when all the kids have the flu. My husband has never had a flu shot, but he had the flu last year. My dd has never had the flu shot, and she's never had the flu. (she's had everything else though)

My Mother in law gets a flu shot, and she never gets the flu... but she never leaves the house, and nobody ever goes in her house... so I don't know why she bothers with it.
Last years' flu shots were generally regarded as duds everywhere, they didn't protect against the strain of flu that went around. And of course it wouldn't help with colds in any case. People often - as in all the time - mistake other things for the flu too (that's a general statement not aimed at anyone in particular.)

I have pretty serious doubts whether giving everyone the flu shot is useful, as there is no way to develop herd immunity with the flu, and it isn't a deadly disease for everyone. Better to spend the money on other projects to keep people healthy and able to fight off illnesses of all kinds.

It may have some use in special situations though, for example for people who work or live with those with compromised immune systems.

 I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt.
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