I need quick comebacks for the "herd immunity" arguement - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I think also there are the points that not all immunity is waning from vaccines and not all adults skip boosters.
I do not know any adults up to date with boosters. (and I worked in a hospital - I only needed to be up to date with Hep B)

Which immunity is not waning?

(sorry so blunt )
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#62 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 02:12 PM
 
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It depends on the vaccine. about 60% or a bit higher of adults are getting vaccinated against flu and pneumococcal. Only a very small percentage are getting vaccinated against shingles.

As the population shifts, more adults are vaccinated because they were required to for college, as one example. So, before meningitis vaccine requirements at colleges, you had low uptake of the vaccine for the 19-49 bracket, but now we see more adults who have had that shot because of the requirement. That is just one small example for vaccine coverage in adults.

Hep A was not on the recommended childhood schedule before recently. So you have a group of adults who are not vaccinated right now. But as the population gets older and the children who were vaccinated grow up, you will see a shift in the recommended schedule for adults because another Hep A will not be necessary. But right now it is, according to the CDC, because not many adults living right now have had the vaccine as it was not recommended in their childhood.

Some vaccines seem to wane in immunity (but not in all cases), an example is P portion of pertussis.

Other vaccines do not seem to wane such as rubella.

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#63 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 02:38 PM
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they jsut keep adding more and more vaccines to the list, probably because their vaccines have mutated older diseases making them stronger and creating the "need" for more and more vaccines. I have family in Ireland and Canada, they have a very different vaccine schedules over there, and are just as healthy if not more healthy. Of the more "advanced" societys around the world, ours seems to be more lacking in health then others. While we have "superior healthcare" we sure have a lot of uynhealthy people!
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#64 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
it is not. And I do not buy the "we all have subclinical measles instead" as reasoning. It is usually what people say to attempt to counter the idea that measles cases are near zero and all due to importation.
Measles is the poster child for NOT creating immunity.

Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus
Quote:
Fever occurring subsequent to measles vaccination is related to the replication of the live attenuated vaccine virus. In the case presented here, the vaccine virus was isolated in the throat, showing that subcutaneous injection of an attenuated measles strain can result in respiratory excretion of this virus.
Detection of measles virus RNA in urine specimens from vaccine recipients.
P A Rota, A S Khan, E Durigon, T Yuran, Y S Villamarzo, and W J Bellini
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...9&blobtype=pdf
Quote:
The changing epidemiology of measles, in the form of mild
measles cases in previously vaccinated individuals (1, 11, 20),
suggests that more asymptomatic or subclinical cases might be
occurring. ... In one previous
study, urine samples from 5 of 12 measles case contacts
were positive for measles virus antigen even though only 1 of
these 5 contacts developed clinical signs
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#65 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 03:40 PM
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the only person I know with boosters is my dad, he had to get them for his job. other then that, I know no one with them. Most parents I knew when I was growing up even slacked off on the childhood boosters...
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#66 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post

Other vaccines do not seem to wane such as rubella.
Tell that to the women who have had two, three, or more rubella shots because they show no detectable antibodies.
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#67 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:24 PM
 
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that is more likely to mean they never developed immunity and not that the immunity waned.

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#68 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:27 PM
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because the vaccine doesnt (even in theory) work for everyone :P which is just another risk you take when vaccinating. i may hurt my child all for the sake of nothing!
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#69 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PaigeC View Post
Measles is the poster child for NOT creating immunity.

Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...t=AbstractPlus


Detection of measles virus RNA in urine specimens from vaccine recipients.
P A Rota, A S Khan, E Durigon, T Yuran, Y S Villamarzo, and W J Bellini
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...9&blobtype=pdf
I disagree and gave given many reasons here and in the s/d thread-- I can't even keep them straight anymore but, I disagree that a source showing measles in a vaccinated child/shedding means that the vaccine is not effective in creating immunity to measles.

But, like I said, even if I believed that we all now have subclinical measles, the result is still the same: near eradication of measles in this country and transmission of (as is the nature of subclinical infections- they are much less likely to transmit based on load). But, like I said, I don't buy the subclinical argument as an overall argument to support the 'measles vaccine is not effective'.

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#70 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
that is more likely to mean they never developed immunity and not that the immunity waned.
How can you be sure of that. For the most part no one bothers to check titres after a child has been vaccinated to see the uptake. Regardless, just another not so stellar vaccine.
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#71 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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Of course I cannot be sure, all I can do is cite the evidence we have for the length of rubella immunity but if our threshold is 100% certain, I don't think any of us will win that argument

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#72 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 05:13 PM
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but that was happening with measles BEFORE the vaccine was invented. why does the vaccine get credit for something that happened before it was invented?

and really, dont understand why the measles becomes such a huge issue when you can just get it naturally and be naturally immune for life. to be honest, if that had invented the vaccine for measles earlier it might have been more compelling, but considering they made it when they did I dont really understand why they felt it was an important vaccine to make.
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#73 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I disagree that a source showing measles in a vaccinated child/shedding means that the vaccine is not effective in creating immunity to measles.
I don't understand this. If vaccinated kids are either a) getting measles or b) transmitting it to others how is that immunity? And how is that "eradicating" measles? What does it mean for a vaccine to "work"? This is the definition of NOT working to me.
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#74 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 09:03 PM
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I just wanted to say too that this is a great discussion and it is remaining mature and friendly! Kudos to us
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#75 of 102 Old 02-03-2009, 11:30 PM
 
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On the adult need for boosters and all that--

I think this is actually a great demo of how unconsciously vaccines play out.

I'm old enough to remember the days when almost all children had mumps, measles, rubella and chickenpox when they were children. All of these illnesses lead to lifelong immunity in the majority of people (if they survive these devastating illnesses, of course <sarcasm>).

So, when the vaccines were introduced, there was no need to vaccinate adults, who were 95% or more immune already and contributing to herd immunity quite generously.

Three generations later (for measles), whatever adults under the age of 45 have in the way of immunity is a relic of their childhood vaccinations. Many are not immune and they certainly are not contributing to herd immunity.

But the legal and medical and social attitudes haven't adjusted, so adults are given a free ride on vaccinations, but every newborn is under constant threat of the needle, and this threat continues until they reach age 18 or so.

Let's not pretend that this is rational, nor that it is effective public health policy.

Finally, when it comes to Hep A, the situation is truly bizarre. This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults. So we vaccinate the children, putting them at risk of vaccine reactions to protect adults. This is insane and also immoral.
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#76 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 12:19 AM
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you worded that beautifully and accurately Deborah
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#77 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 12:54 AM
 
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So, after reading the variety of response to on this thread, I think a good/quick comeback would be:

"Did you know that less than 1/3 of our population is fully vaccinated?"

I do still think adults being unvaccinated is relevant to the issue, so I would probably ask:

"Are YOU up to date on your vaccines?"

Of course, the one that I would personally use is:

"Why does my child have to protect your child? Didn't you already vaccinate him/her?"

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#78 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 08:59 AM
 
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On the adult need for boosters and all that--

I think this is actually a great demo of how unconsciously vaccines play out.

I'm old enough to remember the days when almost all children had mumps, measles, rubella and chickenpox when they were children. All of these illnesses lead to lifelong immunity in the majority of people (if they survive these devastating illnesses, of course <sarcasm>).

So, when the vaccines were introduced, there was no need to vaccinate adults, who were 95% or more immune already and contributing to herd immunity quite generously.
Ah ha.... maybe this explains why people think that adults have done their bit from a social perspective.

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Three generations later (for measles), whatever adults under the age of 45 have in the way of immunity is a relic of their childhood vaccinations. Many are not immune and they certainly are not contributing to herd immunity.
Yes! But this is just not a relevant issue somehow.

Quote:
But the legal and medical and social attitudes haven't adjusted, so adults are given a free ride on vaccinations, but every newborn is under constant threat of the needle, and this threat continues until they reach age 18 or so.
This is so frustrating for me. The whole use herd immunity to intimidate parents to vaccinate is frustrating. And yet people continue to feel very strongly that parents who do not vaccinate their children are the only source for bringing down the threshold immunity in the population. And words like 'free riders' and even 'parasites' are thrown around.

Quote:
Let's not pretend that this is rational, nor that it is effective public health policy.
: Public health is relying an awful lot on vaccination to create a healthy society, ie prevent death and disability from illness. I can think of a couple of other ways to go about it.... but not quite so straight forward as an injection.
Quote:
Finally, when it comes to Hep A, the situation is truly bizarre. This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults. So we vaccinate the children, putting them at risk of vaccine reactions to protect adults. This is insane and also immoral.
Well, I guess the people who decided to vaccinate children for Hep A didn't think much further than developing the vaccine. Not the first time this has happened..... I know you know that.

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#79 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 10:58 AM
 
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Finally, when it comes to Hep A, the situation is truly bizarre. This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults. So we vaccinate the children, putting them at risk of vaccine reactions to protect adults. This is insane and also immoral.
I think that is a matter of opinion. Children who get Hep A and are symptomatic are much more likely to relapse than adults. And it is not always a mild illness for children. They may not even begin to feel better for three weeks and the illness lingers beyond that time for many. People like to say it's 'like food poisoning' but this does not seem to stand up to the evidence I have looked at when children become Hep A with symptoms.

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#80 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 11:09 AM
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what are your sources Carrie. can you provide JUST the statistics and leave the opinions of pro-vaccine community out of it so it can be looked at objectively. do your sources differentiate between healthy and immune compromised children? do your sources differentiate between well nourished and malnourished? do your sources differentiate between a clean health home and impoverty? do your sources differentiate between parents who have hep a and dont? do your sources differentiate between advanced societies and 3rd world countries? have you seen this information broken down to make you think that a healthy, well nourished child living in an advanced society is likely to have such adverse reactions to the point the risk of the vaccine is incomparable to the risk of Hep A? The definite risk you take by injecting the vaccine, versus the possible risk of the child even getting Hep A from a statistical point of view, speculation aside?

"the evidence you have looked at" but so far all I see is you taking the word of people who market the drug. I haven't seen you post any sources, or look at any information objectively. I haven't seen you post information that focuses on numbers, and you analyzing the numbers as the sources will skew them to support their cause. You can't take everything at face value, especially when you are relying heavily on the people turning profit from you doing so.

As I see it, if they were able to prove the vaccine was safe (and by prove, I mean do a REAL safety study - not the studies they do now, that even the CDC admits themselves are misleading? that if another drug company did those studies they would be laughed at by even the mildest of critics) and in addition to "proving" it was safe in that way, and also proving that is works in that way, then this is a vaccine I would support for those who need it. but not every child needs this vaccine, and it hasn't been proven safe (again I mean by the same standards every other marketed drug has to prove they are safe).
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#81 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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We did a thread on Hep A where we went through this in the S/D forum, I am heading out right now but I will pull it up for you with all the stuff. They were not 'pro vaccine' sources, they were simply sites with information on the disease, they had nothing to do with the vaccine if I remember correctly. If I can find it in the next 3 min I will, if not you could search using my user name and a search term of Hep A.

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#82 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 11:31 AM
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I would be interested in that. I will also have my husband do a website check on the website from which the information was obtained - he is usually good at figuring out who sponsers the information. they might not have been pro vaccine but they very well could have been "pro fear of diseases because we want you to get the vaccine" sources id be very interested if the information you found covers all the scenarios I just mentioned (sick versus healthy, non immune compromised versus immune compromised, children of parents without Hep A verus parents with, poverty verus not, well nourished verus malnourished, etc)

and, has been pointed out, they now try to make chicken pox sound like a super scary deadly disease. When my kids are parents, if they look up chicken pox they will probably be led to feel like its the worst thing ever, much like what they do to parents now a days with diseases like the measles.

or the infamous rotavirus vaccine - which gave both of my older two rotavirus, is a very expensive vaccine to get (though I had insurance), is relatively new, and majorly unneccessary - I believe it spreads this disease more then it prevents it, and its not a big deal, but accordind to the CDC everything is a big deal. next thing is a vaccination for runny noses.
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#83 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 02:28 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&highlight=hep (carriebft's hep A thread)

I never even thought about this vaccine as an option. I am not sure I would now though. I would definitly want to understand under what conditions complications and relapses are more likely to occur.
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#84 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 02:32 PM
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some of that information reminds me of canker sores lol still reading though.
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#85 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 02:45 PM
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That was a very enlightening thread (reersonal experiences). I can see why someone who believes the vaccine works, and would be in the high risk catagory for getting it, would want that vaccine. Of course, that was how I felt before lol since the numbers are nothing new. (well, some of the numbers are new, since the vaccine is new... you know what I mean though)

I agree that I wish the pink book was referenced more. I also think, it would be great if these numbers were reflecting the questions I originally asked carrie in this thread. I felt it was just another Hep A thread... for me anyway, I've veiwed a lot of these types of discussions, but I always find the personal experiences very grounding.

I asked:

do your sources differentiate between healthy and immune compromised children? no
do your sources differentiate between well nourished and malnourished? no
do your sources differentiate between a clean health home and impoverty? no
do your sources differentiate between parents who have hep a and dont? no
do your sources differentiate between advanced societies and 3rd world countries? Id say yes, and no. there were a few sources, and I'm going to include personal experience in this since I do think that counts for something an is too often discredited.
have you seen this information broken down to make you think that a healthy, well nourished child living in an advanced society is likely to have such adverse reactions to the point the risk of the vaccine is incomparable to the risk of Hep A? I can't answer that as it was a question directed towards carrie, and perhaps she feels this can be assumed based on the information she read. Assuming the vaccine works though, and that they travel to high risk areas often I can understand her conclusions on this vaccine. It will be interesting how it plays out after this vaccination has been in circulation longer, since like other vaccines they were not properly safety tested before being used.
The definite risk you take by injecting the vaccine, versus the possible risk of the child even getting Hep A from a statistical point of view, speculation aside? I think with this particular vaccine, it is hard to effectively do this based on the lack of information provided/known.

I think getting kids checked for immunity is a good first step, and should be done before giving any vaccine.
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#86 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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essentially you want information on the disease. Here are sources from all over about the disease which may answer your questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_A

thats general info obviously but many links at bottom


Here is info on an outbreak in PA:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5247a5.htm

I believe this speaks to negate the idea you are suggesting, which is that only immune compromised, unhealthy, developing world individuals would be as risk for this disease. Since it was contacted at a restaurant, we can rule out the need to have a dirty home to get Hep A. Sanitation obviously plays its role in Hep A infection, but, when one goes out to eat, you do have to trust that the place is properly cooking food...and then you must also trust that the food, the green onions in this case, has been properly tested and handled...etcetc.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4812a1.htm

More here.

Hep A risk is high for travelers, even those who are in good health. While any disease is more of a problem for the elderly and the very young as well as the immune compromised, Hep A doesn't only hit those groups.

the questions you pose only affect the presence of Hep A; once it is present, it can infect anyone and doesn't seem to discriminate too much. So it is more of a factor in developing nations, for example, but it can enter the USA through food as it did here. Once it is present, it spreads, etcetc.



My main point is this:

I feel it is not correct for people to say that Hep A is like food poisoning, a tummy ache, or a 'mild disease' because I think that it is a matter of opinion. There are serious risks to the disease and it can relapse and take a long time to feel better. More on symptoms in these links:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/hepat...20A%20Symptoms

Quote:
Symptoms usually last less than two months, although they may last as long as nine months. About 15% of people infected with hepatitis A have symptoms that come and go for 6-9 months.
Quote:
Most people with hepatitis A will feel sick for a few months before they begin to feel better
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312659

To some that is not a great risk nor is it a big deal, to others it will be different.

I apologize if any of these links are redundant to the other thread, as I am just taking them all from my vaccine folder on this computer and its organization leaves much to be desired

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#87 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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It should also be noted that while I feel the disease carries more risk than is often talked about here (which was my point in both posts I have made on this), I still do not do this vaccine. I simply am saying it is not characterized correctly much of the time.

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#88 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I feel it is not correct for people to say that Hep A is like food poisoning, a tummy ache, or a 'mild disease' because I think that it is a matter of opinion. There are serious risks to the disease and it can relapse and take a long time to feel better. More on symptoms in these links:
Hep A can be more serious than a tummy bug in children, but mostly is not. I would be interested to see a break down on more details describing children who are likely to have serious complications. It is known to be more serious in adults. I do not think anyone has challenged that. I do not know where you would find this info. Kind of like it's hard to find more information about people who die from measles. Just because it can cause death doesn't mean every child can/will die. There are such a broad variety of influencing factors.

I got the impression that you would like to avoid ever having your DC exposed to hep A. Is that true?
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Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#89 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 05:55 PM
 
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I will definitely keep looking around for more on this and get those sources back to you. I know I have tons and read a lot on the children and relapse issue after initially finding out about it, as it made my husband more adamant about the vax.

As far as whether or not I would like to have the kids exposed, it is definitely not something I would do on purpose. But I am thinking we will have immunity checked when we check for chicken pox immunity, since we are doing it anyway before K. Maybe we will be lucky and have gained immunity without symptoms or anything, I figure we have a chance since we have been in Central America for 4 weeks every year for the past 6 years...


also remember that I never said that it can't be a mild disease in children, I just disagreed with the statement:

Quote:
This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults.
since it isn't true all of the time as far as kids go.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#90 of 102 Old 02-04-2009, 06:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post

also remember that I never said that it can't be a mild disease in children, I just disagreed with the statement:

Quote:
This is a very mild illness for children and a serious illness for adults.
since it isn't true all of the time as far as kids go.
I think you make an important point. I guess I am just curious as to which children are at risk of developing complications

Quote:
In most cases of hepatitis A, the liver heals completely in a month or two with no lasting damage. Furthermore, the virus doesn't remain in your body once you've recovered. Older adults and people with other medical problems, such as congestive heart failure, diabetes and anemia, may take longer to recover and are likely to have a more serious course of the disease.

In rare cases, fulminant hepatitis — a life-threatening condition that causes liver failure — may develop. Especially at risk are people with chronic liver disease or a liver transplant.

In addition, some studies suggest that the inflammation triggered by hepatitis A may contribute to atherosclerosis — the gradual buildup of hardened deposits in your arteries.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hep...=complications

For what it is worth.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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