I need quick comebacks for the "herd immunity" arguement - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Going to be debating vaccines tomorrow with someone who always brings up the herd immunity crap. I know it is BS but I can never explain why! Links? TIA.

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#2 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 01:11 AM
 
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For the Good of the Herd

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#3 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 01:39 AM
 
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I prefer the squint and "why is this any of your business?" question

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#4 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:06 AM
 
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"Oh, yes, let's talk about herd immunity. Which vaccine would you like to talk about it pertaining to, since some of them don't contribute to it at all. After that we can talk about serotype replacement."

That would be my response.
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#5 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:07 AM
 
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I always tell people who say who that they have their species mixed up; we are humans not cows.
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#6 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 07:08 AM
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Herd immunity implies vaccines create immunity. Doubtful:

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/scand...vaccinated.htm

Outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations.
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#7 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 07:31 AM
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Found another good blog that breaks down herd immunity:

http://explorevaccines.wordpress.com...herd-immunity/
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#8 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 10:49 AM
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that was always my thinking too paige - its hard to explain herd immunity when the other person is ASSUMING vaccines work. I usually start with "assuming vaccines work, which is yet to be proven, ____________________"
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#9 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 12:05 PM
 
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Yes-

The concept of herd immunity was coined in the 1933 (b4 vaccines) and was intended to be applied to a population that became immune to measles through natural exposure. Now, they conveniently apply this concept to vaccines assuming that the vaxes confer the same type of protection as natural exposure (which we know it doesn't since vax induced immunity (if it even confers any immunity at all) is waning and most folks do not get boosters as adults.
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#10 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Yes-

The concept of herd immunity was coined in the 1933 (b4 vaccines) and was intended to be applied to a population that became immune to measles through natural exposure. Now, they conveniently apply this concept to vaccines assuming that the vaxes confer the same type of protection as natural exposure (which we know it doesn't since vax induced immunity (if it even confers any immunity at all) is waning and most folks do not get boosters as adults.
Good Post!
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#11 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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I had assumed only pro-vaxers sought the almighty herd immunity anyway. Pox party, anyone? Although, as Marnica said, a pox party would also grant herd immunity--so to speak. Definitely no cows in here.

Childhood diseases used to be considered rites of passage by some. Suddenly, everyone just wants to be shot up so they can get on with their business. Would they rather have measles as kids or cancer as adults?
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#12 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:35 PM
 
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Ask if they are up to date on all of the boosters on today's schedule. Then listen for crickets.
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#13 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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Ask if they are up to date on all of the boosters on today's schedule. Then listen for crickets.
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#14 of 102 Old 01-31-2009, 03:45 PM
 
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Ask if they are up to date on all of the boosters on today's schedule. Then listen for crickets.


too bad it's really NOT funny, but I do rarely get a smile from this forum, so had to share it.
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#15 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Ask if they are up to date on all of the boosters on today's schedule. Then listen for crickets.
Irrelevant. The social contract in today's society is for children to be vaccinated, not adults. Anti vaxers complaining that the social contract isn't quite as rigorous as it could be (via lack of boosters) is an evasion.

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#16 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 12:38 PM
 
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Irrelevant. The social contract in today's society is for children to be vaccinated, not adults. Anti vaxers complaining that the social contract isn't quite as rigorous as it could be (via lack of boosters) is an evasion.
Wait, wouldn't it be a relevant argument? If someone is arguing all children must be vaccinated for herd immunity, then consistency would be ensuring all adults are current on their boosters, per CDC and Merck recommendations.

At least, that is the way I hear the argument. Someone is telling me I have to vaccinate my children to protect the herd. Well, that means 100% compliance for everyone in society.

Of course, then it just becomes obvious that this is a very bad argument for vaccination. Vaccines do not have 100% efficacy.
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#17 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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Irrelevant. The social contract in today's society is for children to be vaccinated, not adults. Anti vaxers complaining that the social contract isn't quite as rigorous as it could be (via lack of boosters) is an evasion.
I think it's completely relevant! In fact, I think the herd argument is the pro-vax side's weakest argument because of this. Way more than half of our herd isn't "up to date" and we aren't all dropping like flies. And the diseases that the older population are supposed to be most vulnerable to, like measles or chicken pox, aren't wiping us out.

Maybe I'm reading what you're saying wrong? Am I understanding correctly?
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#18 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 01:24 PM
 
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Irrelevant. The social contract in today's society is for children to be vaccinated, not adults. Anti vaxers complaining that the social contract isn't quite as rigorous as it could be (via lack of boosters) is an evasion.
The "herd" consists of children and adults. You can't just cherry pick a certain portion of the "herd" and apply the social contract to it in the context of herd immunity, especially given that vaccine immunity is not life-long.

It most certainly is not an evasion. It is a relevant, essential part of the argument.
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#19 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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I think it's completely relevant! In fact, I think the herd argument is the pro-vax side's weakest argument because of this. Way more than half of our herd isn't "up to date" and we aren't all dropping like flies. And the diseases that the older population are supposed to be most vulnerable to, like measles or chicken pox, aren't wiping us out.

Maybe I'm reading what you're saying wrong? Am I understanding correctly?
Your representation of the herd immunity argument there is not what I would use. It is easy to "win" this type of argument on MDC because the argument that you are supposing to be the herd immunity one is not real. Herd immunity does not require 100%. Chicken pox never wiped anyone out. The only value of herd immunity is not to keep people from dying.

Boosters, while a good idea and supported by the medical community, are not required by law/society in the same way that child vaccinations are. Society is choosing to attempt to get herd immunity without boosters being required. Reasonable people could suggest that boosters _should_ be required, but since they are not, they are irrelevant. And it is ironic when non-vaxers suggest that boosters should be required, when they are not even paying the societal cost of child vaccination. They are benefiting from herd immunity without any of the cost.

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#20 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 02:35 PM
 
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Your representation of the herd immunity argument there is not what I would use. It is easy to "win" this type of argument on MDC because the argument that you are supposing to be the herd immunity one is not real. Herd immunity does not require 100%. Chicken pox never wiped anyone out. The only value of herd immunity is not to keep people from dying.

Boosters, while a good idea and supported by the medical community, are not required by law/society in the same way that child vaccinations are. Society is choosing to attempt to get herd immunity without boosters being required. Reasonable people could suggest that boosters _should_ be required, but since they are not, they are irrelevant. And it is ironic when non-vaxers suggest that boosters should be required, when they are not even paying the societal cost of child vaccination. They are benefiting from herd immunity without any of the cost.
Vaccine skeptics aren't suggesting that boosters should be required. They are arguing that putting the onus on maintaining this "herd immunity" on our littlest citizens is madness.

And by what you wrote about boosters, can you answer how is it that law/society is trumping medical science? How is that helping the HEALTH of our nation, especially of our nation's children?

Thinking about preventing vaccine-available diseases via vaccination is a limited paradigm.
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#21 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 02:49 PM
 
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Irrelevant. The social contract in today's society is for children to be vaccinated, not adults. Anti vaxers complaining that the social contract isn't quite as rigorous as it could be (via lack of boosters) is an evasion.
I have only started to look into herd immunity, but it is not that straight forward.

One of the cornerstones in herd immunity is* life long* immunity. Each disease has a different threashhold for the WHOLE population from newborn to elderly. Waning immunity is creating a drop in the % of immune people in the population. The social contract is equally applicable for adults as it is for children and babies, if you want herd immunity.

Not all vaccines can contribute to herd immunity as they do not prevent transmission, but rather are supposed to make the illness less severe in the vaccinated person.

Herd Immunity theory doesn't work IMO when discussing vaccination. I understand epidimic theory as going with the approach of preventing disease from ever happeing, and not looking at what the conditions are that result in disease becoming dangerous. I am not seeing disease prevention as the risk free way forward. I am more confident trying to understand how to best ensure that my family is able to manage disease without serious complications. Factors like individual health status and sanitation were not factored in from what I have understood. Contracting the disease is not a death sentence or even a hospital sentence. While it is a burden on the health system, with good nutrition and sanitation and optimal living conditions these diseases do not need to be scary unless you are immune compromised. Also that people were arrogant enough to think they could make diseases extinct through vaccination will probably become laughable down the line.

The question does have to be asked if Herd Immunity from vaccination doesn't work, why we are not seeing huge increases in adults being ill with VPD.
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#22 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 04:06 PM
 
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And it is ironic when non-vaxers suggest that boosters should be required, when they are not even paying the societal cost of child vaccination. They are benefiting from herd immunity without any of the cost.
Baloney. I would never suggest that boosters be required, I don't believe a single vaccine should be required at all. And implying that families that don't vaccinate are benefiting from herd immunity is not only false, but an insult. The herd is not immune. And what exactly do you mean by cost? That we aren't risking vaccination for the benefit of the herd? Well if that's what you mean then you're right. I will not risk vaccination for the "good of the herd". I don't believe vaccination is good, or even works, for the individual or the herd.
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#23 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 04:42 PM
 
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Your representation of the herd immunity argument there is not what I would use. It is easy to "win" this type of argument on MDC because the argument that you are supposing to be the herd immunity one is not real. Herd immunity does not require 100%. Chicken pox never wiped anyone out. The only value of herd immunity is not to keep people from dying.
I am interested (seriously) to know what your representation of herd immunity is. I think I have to agree that one of the expectations of providing herd immunity through vaccination would be a reduction in death and illness. I am not sure that vaccination is the only way to herd immunity.

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Boosters, while a good idea and supported by the medical community, are not required by law/society in the same way that child vaccinations are. Society is choosing to attempt to get herd immunity without boosters being required. Reasonable people could suggest that boosters _should_ be required, but since they are not, they are irrelevant. And it is ironic when non-vaxers suggest that boosters should be required, when they are not even paying the societal cost of child vaccination. They are benefiting from herd immunity without any of the cost.
With waning immunity being a factor in herd immunity, I do not understand why boosters are not mandatory. I am not supporting boosters. But I am curious as to why they are not mandatory from a herd immunity perspective. Why is society choosing to attempt herd immunity when such a large portion of the population (adults - not people who choose not to vaccinate their children) is very likely not fully immune?
I also do not understand why boosters become an irrelevant part of the discussion just because they are not required. To create herd immunity, not only is my child required to be immune, so are adults. Back to immunity for the whole population being recquired for herd immunity to work.
The whole taking a free ride thing is problematic for me. Adults who are not immune after relying on childhood immunization are taking a free ride hoping that all children are vaccinated. I personally feel a whole lot better knowing I had measles as a child. I am not worried that I could get it as an adult (at least I haven't found anything to make me think I should be worried). I am worried about DH getting measles as an adult. He was vaccinated as a child.
If you could explain more precisely to me how I am taking a free ride I would appreciate it. I have never really understood the reasoning, and it is pretty accusatory to tell parents who do not vaccinate that they are ruining herd immunity.
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#24 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 04:51 PM
 
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Baloney. I would never suggest that boosters be required, I don't believe a single vaccine should be required at all. And implying that families that don't vaccinate are benefiting from herd immunity is not only false, but an insult. The herd is not immune. And what exactly do you mean by cost? That we aren't risking vaccination for the benefit of the herd? Well if that's what you mean then you're right. I will not risk vaccination for the "good of the herd". I don't believe vaccination is good, or even works, for the individual or the herd.
Come on now. You directly suggested that people who think herd immunity is important should also have to get booster shots.
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#25 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 04:55 PM
 
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Come on now. You directly suggested that people who think herd immunity is important should also have to get booster shots.
I would think that if they thought it was important they would want to get boosters
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#26 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 05:07 PM
 
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I would think that if they thought it was important they would want to get boosters
Sure, it's a possibility. But not a valid argument that would fit the "quick comeback" that the OP asked for.

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Come on now. You directly suggested that people who think herd immunity is important should also have to get booster shots.
No. I was implying that the same people that use the herd immunity argument aren't "up to date" on boosters on today's schedule. Making their argument worthless because the herd isn't immune. And like Marnica said, wouldn't they want to get their boosters?
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#28 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 05:10 PM
 
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Sure, it's a possibility. But not a valid argument that would fit the "quick comeback" that the OP asked for.
I think it is MORE than valid.

Vaccination doesn not equal herd immunity because the herd is not immune. Again. Simple.
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#29 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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No. I was implying that the same people that use the herd immunity argument aren't "up to date" on boosters on today's schedule. Making their argument worthless because the herd isn't immune. And like Marnica said, wouldn't they want to get their boosters?
You are taking me more literally than I meant. Perhaps understandable because of the whole "government wants you to vax" theme here. What I meant to say was this:

Quote:
Come on now. You directly suggested that people who think herd immunity is important should also have to get booster shots in order to be logically consistent
You are wrong to think it is logically inconsistent to not take boosters, but think there is value to herd immunity or to think that it is part of the social contract to vaccinate. I gave possible reasons earlier, not going into it again.

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#30 of 102 Old 02-02-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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You are wrong to think it is logically inconsistent to not take boosters, but think there is value to herd immunity or to think that it is part of the social contract to vaccinate. I gave possible reasons earlier, not going into it again.
I am jumping in here again. I would like you to go into it a bit more. Please look at my earlier post
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