What would happened if no one got vaccinated? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 12:30 PM
 
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So maybe less vaccination would help pass family friendly laws?
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US is in need of MAJOR changes to social protections of mothers and children. Not 12 weeks of FMLA when a child is born. Women and children should be protected by law like they are in France, Sweden and numerous other countries. US needs laws that would allow a mother or father to stay home with their sick child without fear of loosing their jobs and be financially supported by their company and country while doing so.
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#62 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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I don't know if much would happen. A lot of diseases were as bad as they were because of compromised hygiene situations, which we don't have now in the U.S., generally.

I would also like to say that I was vaccinated for typhoid (we lived overseas when I was a kid), and I got it anyway. It sucked. That is one vaccination that I do not believe works at all.

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#63 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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I used to think about this a lot and honestly, I am not ok with everyone stopping vaccines all at once. There would be a lot of deaths for 1 generation and I’m just not OK with that.

Right now mothers do not have natural immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, and some even chickenpox. They cannot pass this immunity to their babies. Measles is my main concern. Before vaccines, kids got this around 5-10 years old. At that age it was a minor illness that everyone got like chickenbpox. If we all stopped vaxing then babies who are most vulnerable and less likely to survive will not have any immunities from their mothers. I am not OK with millions of babies under 2 getting measles. There will be a high death rate until natural herd immunity takes place which could take up to 20-30 years. As much as I am anti vax, I would not support stopping the vaccine program in the US right now.

This would also be happening with chicken pox. Typically we all got this around 5-10 years old. It was rare for babies to get chicken pox. They are much more vulnerable.

I think a lot of you are right and that in the end we would have a more healthy society but it’s the many years of getting to that point.

I also am not a fan of natural selection.

I just feel it’s a catch 22. We are damned if we do damned if we don ‘t. It’s not so black and white in my mind. Just my personal opinion.

And about the working/sick days. It is a valid point but that is how our society and how we are workaholics. *Most* countries respect family needs and give 6-8 weeks of sick/vacation time. Here, you are lucky if you get 1 day when you start. It could take 20 years of working at the same company to get 4 weeks of vacation time. I think this is a cultural issue more than a vax issue.
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#64 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 12:38 PM
 
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What are your options for providing care for your DC when they are sick - whatever the illness? What is your support network for the times you are not available to nurse your child yourself (like if you work, have a newborn, are sick yourself etc)
When DS was in daycare full time, either me, DH, or my Mom had to take off work. Unfortunately, my work is quite strict in that I cannot take ANY and I mean ANY unscheduled time off w/o getting a strike. So it was tough at times. Fortunately, now my Mom is retired and watches DS 2 days a week, and if/when he gets sick she can usually take him.

The U.S. system is totally screwed up as far as taking days off work, employees pretty much have no rights, or next to none. There has to be a pretty serious illness to be able to use FMLA, and even then not everyone can take it if they work for a small company.

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#65 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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I am not sure if what I quoted is in response to me choosing not to work out of the home in part because I will need to nurse my sick children, VPD or not.

My question is not to you specifically - but to all mums. What are your options for providing care for your DC when they are sick - whatever the illness? What is your support network for the times you are not available to nurse your child yourself (like if you work, have a newborn, are sick yourself etc)
I don't WOH but, I could very easily if I had the desire to, because my unvaxed children (11 and 9) have been sick a handful of times in the entire lives and have never once had a sick visit to the doctor (neither has my 18 yo, vaxed child for that matter). Chicken pox lasted four days max, and I suspect they had WC, but because it was so mild, they went on their merry way . As young babies and toddlers, two (both DDs) had rotavirus as babies, otherwise they were just not sick ever. If I am ever too sick to take care of them, ie drive them to school, soccer practice etc, then DH happily steps in. I am lucky in that he owns his own business so taking time off isn't an issue for him.

I did WOH when my eldest was young, but I lived in Hong Kong and had a full-time live in housekeeper/nanny. Only once was I ever called home from work because she was sick. She was sick all of one afternoon.

Being unvaxed doesn't mean being sick a lot, quite the opposite IME.

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#66 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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I wonder if that would have any effect on two-income families? Would one parent have to compromise his or her (probably her) career to stay home at regular intervals to look after sick children?
The incidence of certain conditions like chicken pox, measles and mumps are going down as a result of vaccination IMO. I do know that these numbers are obscured by doctors fudging with diagnoses. I had all three of these as a child and missed some school with each one, so I see your point. My mom was a working mom and had to come home to take care of me.

One the other side of the coin, I see these chronic, debilitative conditions that I don't recall seeing as a child 30 - 40 years ago. When I worked in the schools, right before my very eyes, I witnessed more and more children popping up with serious needs. Entire classrooms were being created to deal with this. The financial and logistical resources that went to this were massive. I got to know the parents, as that was my job, and I can say without equivocation that they were overwhelmed and spent a huge amount of time trying to meet the needs of their children. How much work did they miss? All the occupational and physical therapy that goes with a lot of these new conditions. The speech therapy and the counseling. The nutritional therapy. All the doctor visits.

Colds and flus were still running through the school. At one point, we almost closed the school because an outbreak had gotten so bad. My point is children are still getting sick, and many chronically sick with stuff like asthma, diabetes, severe allergies, serious gastrointestinal issues, autism, etc. These aren't a rash and a fever for a few days. These are lifetime.

Also, let's keep in mind that a lot of cases of the now vaccinated for conditions were subclinical.

If we look at the numbers, the healthcare industry for children has exploded over the past few decades. I mean EXPLODED. It is a HUGE industry. Somebody is taking all these almost completely vaccinated children to the doctor.

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#67 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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I have to agree that being unvaxed doesn't equal being more sick. Often the opposite. DS is almost 1 and had croup for 4 days at 11 months and has otherwise been healthy. He has not had one vax. However, I attribute this more to him being a first child at home with me than his vax status. I do not think healthy means never being sick, but rather recovering faster.

I was not vaxed and had all the childhood diseases 20+ years ago. I was sick enough to be in bed and measles was much more than a sniffle. My mum worked in a Waldorf school and was able to get time off work with understanding and support.

I worked in a hospital and could hardly take time off for myself if I was ill. If my child would be ill, I would be expected to make a plan to ensure that I was at work. I know I would not handle the stress very well. I do not have extended family nearby to help and I am not comfortable leaving DS with neighbours or centres for sick children..... It is so so tough to be making these decisions. I am also a bit of a freak for my ideas on nursing sick children with TLC more than pills..... :

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#68 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rhiandmoi View Post
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1999/12/art1full.pdf

You're right, correlation doesn't equal causation. A lot of things happened in the 60's to make it easier for women to participate in the labor force. But one of those things was a huge decrease in the number of days they would have to miss work to care for sick children. Whether or not anyone consciously thinks "Hey if I vaccinate my children I will be able to work!" I don't know, but on the flip side, who worries about missing work and maybe getting fired to take care of 2 kids who get measles back to back?
But children as a whole are NOT getting healthier. We have more chronic disease, more allergies, more asthma. It used to be something like more than 6 illnesses a year was considered abnormally unhealthy. Then it was 12. Now it is TWENTY FOUR. So basically, a child can be ill twice a month and still be considered normal. So what are we trading for the so called protection from vaccination? In my eyes, chronic ill health and asthma/allergies. The vaccine companies do not deny at all that allergies and asthma are a result of vaccination. And it makes sense if you know anything about the immune system. If you stimulate the immune system to make antibodies in an artificial way, it can just as easily make antibodies against everyday stuff its encountering. There's nothing in the vaccine that says "make antibodies for this specific antigen only." Its just injected along with other chemicals, metals, etc. to act as an adjuvant (to ramp up the response). If you eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and have those proteins in your body at the time of vaccination, whats to say that adjuvant doesn't cause your immune system to rally against that as well? Or to dust, pollen, etc. etc. in the environment.


Regardless, all those of us non-vaxers REALLY want is informed consent. Period. Making vaccines mandatory under the guise of keeping women in the workplace (which was explicitly stated with the chickenpox vaccination) is unacceptable IMO. Why not give the public the OPTION and let mothers and families decide. There are plenty of SAHMs that have no idea that the main reason behind the Varicella vax is to keep them from having to stay home....when they are at home anyhow. Instead, they get a bunch of fear mongering about how people can die from Chicken Pox. Read the literature from the 1980s. Who in the hell was scared of Chicken Pox then? In another generation, Chicken Pox will be as scary to parents as Measles is now. No basis in fact whatsoever. When I did my research, I was shocked at how benign most of these illnesses are. What in the world are we so scared of? And if people want a vax so they don't have to miss work, let them CHOOSE that vaccination for that reason and TELL THE TRUTH.

I am so tired of meeting parents of children with Special Needs who didn't even know they could get a waiver or exemption for vaccinations. I know of families with children with autism that have a history of vaccine reaction in their families. No one spared them or gave them the option of opting out. Just once, I'd love the schools, daycares, doctors, etc. to just give the other option. I.e. instead of "we need your child's shot record" to instead say "we need your child's shot record, or your exemption form." Its a big secret you have to seek out. No one tells parents they have a choice.

I honestly could care less if parents all vaccinated their kids with ALL the info and the ability to make a choice. I'm not anti vaccine, I'm pro-informed consent.

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#69 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kiara7 View Post
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US is in need of MAJOR changes to social protections of mothers and children. Not 12 weeks of FMLA when a child is born. Women and children should be protected by law like they are in France, Sweden and numerous other countries. US needs laws that would allow a mother or father to stay home with their sick child without fear of loosing their jobs and be financially supported by their company and country while doing so.
Okay, we're going OT here but just have to say this. As liberal as I am, and pro-family as I am, we have to PAY for this. Unless Americans are willing to give a significant amount of their salary to the government in taxes, this isn't a valid argument.

Yes, Europe has amazing family support. But those programs are supported by tax dollars. And Americans, in general, already b*tch about the amount of tax they pay.

They also don't want to fund healthcare either. Everyone complains about the cost of insurance as well. We don't want to pay when we are healthy, but when we get sick, we want everything covered and free.

Family friendly laws, paid maternity leave, access to healthcare, etc. are wonderful. I'd like them too. But I honestly would rather fund my own situation, then pay a 50% tax rate. At least thats my opinion right now. It could change tomorrow.

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#70 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:49 PM
 
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I used to think about this a lot and honestly, I am not ok with everyone stopping vaccines all at once. There would be a lot of deaths for 1 generation and I’m just not OK with that.

Right now mothers do not have natural immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, and some even chickenpox. They cannot pass this immunity to their babies. Measles is my main concern. Before vaccines, kids got this around 5-10 years old. At that age it was a minor illness that everyone got like chickenbpox. If we all stopped vaxing then babies who are most vulnerable and less likely to survive will not have any immunities from their mothers. I am not OK with millions of babies under 2 getting measles. There will be a high death rate until natural herd immunity takes place which could take up to 20-30 years. As much as I am anti vax, I would not support stopping the vaccine program in the US right now.

This would also be happening with chicken pox. Typically we all got this around 5-10 years old. It was rare for babies to get chicken pox. They are much more vulnerable.
So I guess I'm wondering where you are getting these numbers? Millions of babies will get measles if we don't vax? How so?

Is the measles in the environment but unable to take hold of anyone since they are vaccinated? I haven't had an MMR shot since god knows when. I never had measles, mumps, or rubella, so I don't have natural immunity. So my vaccine immunity has surely worn off. So why am I not getting measles right now? And thus passing it to my babies under the age of 2? Or is it because I'm older than 10 thus not likely to get it? I ask because this is a HUGE concern with the vaccine program. If we vaccinate the little ones (when they are "supposed" to get it, and its a mild self limiting disease), then they get a crappy temporary immunity. Later in life when the disease is not in its mild self limiting window, you're left with your a** hanging out....so to speak.

Chicken pox is actually notorious for being mild in childhood and severe as an adult. So what is the sense in giving the crappy temporary immunity to kids? Only to have it wear off at some undetermined point, and leave a bunch of adults exposed and vulnerable. The only theory that makes any sense, is to have people paying big pharma from cradle to grave by forcing them to get boosters for the rest of their life. Parents reacting out of fear, vaccinate their kids against CP. Then the children are left to grow up not knowing if they're at risk for CP again (which is severe and sucky for an adult). So they are locked into a cycle of booster shots generating revenue for big pharma. And they'll refill their prescriptions for Zyrtec and Allegra while they are at it.

Chicken pox isn't fun for babies, but I don't recall any stats on it being THAT dangerous either. In fact, I've heard of 1 yr olds making it through it easier than older kids because they can't scratch and generally don't fuss about it. I have heard rumors that kids under the age of 2 that had it could potentially get it again....but I don't know if thats true or not. Regardless, a baby thats not immune compromised, is not likely to suffer massive consequences from chicken pox. Plenty of babies in the 80s had siblings come home with CP. I never heard of an epidemic of baby death because of exposure to CP. And many mothers did not BF at all in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, so maternal immunity is not the sole cause of this lack of epidemic.

I simply don't think the research bears your argument out....but I'm open to other suggestions. I'm no expert.

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#71 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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I don't WOH but, I could very easily if I had the desire to, because my unvaxed children (11 and 9) have been sick a handful of times in the entire lives and have never once had a sick visit to the doctor (neither has my 18 yo, vaxed child for that matter). Chicken pox lasted four days max, and I suspect they had WC, but because it was so mild, they went on their merry way . As young babies and toddlers, two (both DDs) had rotavirus as babies, otherwise they were just not sick ever. If I am ever too sick to take care of them, ie drive them to school, soccer practice etc, then DH happily steps in. I am lucky in that he owns his own business so taking time off isn't an issue for him.

I did WOH when my eldest was young, but I lived in Hong Kong and had a full-time live in housekeeper/nanny. Only once was I ever called home from work because she was sick. She was sick all of one afternoon.

Being unvaxed doesn't mean being sick a lot, quite the opposite IME.
That's great, but it makes me wonder: are you happy or unhappy that they never got the measles or mumps?
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#72 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 02:01 PM
 
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And if people want a vax so they don't have to miss work, let them CHOOSE that vaccination for that reason and TELL THE TRUTH.

I am so tired of meeting parents of children with Special Needs who didn't even know they could get a waiver or exemption for vaccinations. I know of families with children with autism that have a history of vaccine reaction in their families. No one spared them or gave them the option of opting out. Just once, I'd love the schools, daycares, doctors, etc. to just give the other option. I.e. instead of "we need your child's shot record" to instead say "we need your child's shot record, or your exemption form." Its a big secret you have to seek out. No one tells parents they have a choice.
Great post, I agree with you.

I have been discovering how heterogeneous the group of non-vaxing parents is, and I think that some people may in fact wish for legislation banning vaccinations. But maybe I am misreading.

How would you feel about a world where parents needed an exemption to vaccinate instead of the other way around?
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#73 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 02:05 PM
 
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Family friendly laws, paid maternity leave, access to healthcare, etc. are wonderful. I'd like them too. But I honestly would rather fund my own situation, then pay a 50% tax rate. At least thats my opinion right now. It could change tomorrow.
OT also, but I would prefer to pay the 50% tax rate and have all those good things. (I am in Canada so we have higher taxes and much better maternity leave as it is.) I know I make the money I do partly because of where I was born, who my parents are, my good physical and mental health, and a fair amount of good luck. I don't want to spread my wealth around by charity so much because I might make less than optimal decisions: I want a really good government who can help me help my less fortunate neighbour by taxing me. (I guess that's a bit of a Utopian dream.)
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#74 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 02:51 PM
 
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Great post, I agree with you.

I have been discovering how heterogeneous the group of non-vaxing parents is, and I think that some people may in fact wish for legislation banning vaccinations. But maybe I am misreading.

How would you feel about a world where parents needed an exemption to vaccinate instead of the other way around?
If a parent does their research and decides that it is the right choice for them, I have absolutely NO problem with families choosing to vaccinate, for whatever reason (exposure risk, beliefs, etc.)

But the way things are now, with the CDC schedule, immense pressure that parents are put under to vaccinate, and doctors dismissing families from their practices because they are opting to do things differently? BIG problem.

Parents are told which vaccines their children will be getting, with very little advice and input from their doctors on why. Informed consent is not happening. Vaccinating and non/selective/delayed vaccinating parents alike should have a big problem with that...this is unacceptable.

As for legislation "banning" vaccinations...in my opinion the point is that there shouldn't be any legislation about vaccines AT ALL. It should just be a choice that a family can make, and not "mandated" in any way shape or form. If you think that they are safe, and that they work, and you think that your child needs them for whatever reason, by all means, vaccinate your child. But don't turn around and vilify parents who don't make a different choice and hold them to a different standard and make them jump through crazy hoops.
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#75 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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Has anyone ever met a woman who cited the availability of vaccinations as one of the deciding factors to work outside of the home?
My mom basically has. She has pointed out (this fall, when I spent a lot of time housebound caring for my 4 kids as we passed around measles, strep throat, and hand, foot, mouth ) how one of the reasons she thinks vaccines are good is that they don't have to take so much time off of work/spend money on childcare for children who would normally be at school, but who are sick. While she probably didn't think "Yes, I can wohm because my kids won't be sick with VPDs," knowing that your kids will be getting free childcare at school and not have to spend a week or two (or more) being cared for by you or a paid childcare provider makes wohm more realistic.

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#76 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:05 PM
 
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So I guess I'm wondering where you are getting these numbers? Millions of babies will get measles if we don't vax? How so?

Is the measles in the environment but unable to take hold of anyone since they are vaccinated? I haven't had an MMR shot since god knows when. I never had measles, mumps, or rubella, so I don't have natural immunity. So my vaccine immunity has surely worn off. So why am I not getting measles right now? ...

I simply don't think the research bears your argument out....but I'm open to other suggestions. I'm no expert.

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Just an example of what happens when vaccination for measles goes down. Research does bear out a rise in Measles when vaccination drops. Is the MMR foolproof? no. Are there incidences of outbreaks among the vaccinate. Yes. This doesn't negate the impact of vaccination on measles.
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#77 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:14 PM
 
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That's great, but it makes me wonder: are you happy or unhappy that they never got the measles or mumps?
I can't say I am unhappy about them not having (so far) contracted measles, mumps or rubella, but I would've liked them to have had them -- I guess there is still a chance, but pretty slim I would think. If it wasn't so invasive, it would be interesting to get their titers checked, to see if they have any antibodies to the viruses.

FWIW, I *think* that a good number of their friends haven't had the MMR vax as we live in a city notorious for its low vaccination uptake and they both go to alternative schools, and not one case of measles, mumps or rubella has shown up.

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#78 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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As for legislation "banning" vaccinations...in my opinion the point is that there shouldn't be any legislation about vaccines AT ALL. It should just be a choice that a family can make, and not "mandated" in any way shape or form. If you think that they are safe, and that they work, and you think that your child needs them for whatever reason, by all means, vaccinate your child. But don't turn around and vilify parents who don't make a different choice and hold them to a different standard and make them jump through crazy hoops.
I agree.

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#79 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BethSLP View Post
So I guess I'm wondering where you are getting these numbers? Millions of babies will get measles if we don't vax? How so?

Is the measles in the environment but unable to take hold of anyone since they are vaccinated? I haven't had an MMR shot since god knows when. I never had measles, mumps, or rubella, so I don't have natural immunity. So my vaccine immunity has surely worn off. So why am I not getting measles right now? And thus passing it to my babies under the age of 2? Or is it because I'm older than 10 thus not likely to get it? I ask because this is a HUGE concern with the vaccine program. If we vaccinate the little ones (when they are "supposed" to get it, and its a mild self limiting disease), then they get a crappy temporary immunity. Later in life when the disease is not in its mild self limiting window, you're left with your a** hanging out....so to speak.

Chicken pox is actually notorious for being mild in childhood and severe as an adult. So what is the sense in giving the crappy temporary immunity to kids? Only to have it wear off at some undetermined point, and leave a bunch of adults exposed and vulnerable. The only theory that makes any sense, is to have people paying big pharma from cradle to grave by forcing them to get boosters for the rest of their life. Parents reacting out of fear, vaccinate their kids against CP. Then the children are left to grow up not knowing if they're at risk for CP again (which is severe and sucky for an adult). So they are locked into a cycle of booster shots generating revenue for big pharma. And they'll refill their prescriptions for Zyrtec and Allegra while they are at it.

Chicken pox isn't fun for babies, but I don't recall any stats on it being THAT dangerous either. In fact, I've heard of 1 yr olds making it through it easier than older kids because they can't scratch and generally don't fuss about it. I have heard rumors that kids under the age of 2 that had it could potentially get it again....but I don't know if thats true or not. Regardless, a baby thats not immune compromised, is not likely to suffer massive consequences from chicken pox. Plenty of babies in the 80s had siblings come home with CP. I never heard of an epidemic of baby death because of exposure to CP. And many mothers did not BF at all in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, so maternal immunity is not the sole cause of this lack of epidemic.

I simply don't think the research bears your argument out....but I'm open to other suggestions. I'm no expert.

XOXO
B
Well I don’t have time to look up all the stats but I think the pink book says that before the vaccine 90% of kids got the measles from the age of 5-10. Something like that. So isn’t there something like 4-5 million births a year? That means all those babies that are not protected either via natural immunity or vaccinated immunity. It’s well document how contagious measles is.

And the vaccine obviously works pretty darn well. I think we are turning a blind eye if we believe it doesn’t. You can look up the stats yourself at the CDC website. Of course the measles is in the environment since we still have outbreaks.

I don’t have time to post more. I can’t believe I am arguing for vaccines since I am so anti vax I just think it’s important that we don’t think in such black and white terms and explore other alternatives. For people to say that stopping the vax program won’t cause more deaths and actually a more healthy society is a little naïve IMO. The average American eats junky food and gets no exercise. This is not a model of health. I do think we would get rid of a lot of auto immune disease though. Although I’m a big believer that there are MANY factors that are causing such high rates of asthma, austism, etc. It’s our food, environment, toys, etc.

So again, saying that getting rid of vaccines is a cure all is hard for me to believe.

Again, these are just my opinions from all my research and soul searching over the years.
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#80 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:40 PM
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so what are your thoughts that 95% of children catching the measles currently are vaccinated? or your thoughts that cases of the measles had already significantly declined before the vaccine was invented? or as Beth said, the fact that ITS NOT A BIG DEAL to get the measles as a child? and why isn't it being passed around, again as Beth pointed out. Your arguement sounds flawed and lacking in research IMO.
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#81 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
so what are your thoughts that 95% of children catching the measles currently are vaccinated?
In the world? Or in the States?
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#82 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 03:59 PM
 
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As I already said. I have no problem with kids getting the measles naturally. I do have a problem with an abrupt halt to the vaccine program and possibly losing many babies from it.

Obviously vaccines are not 100% effective. I never said that. But it's pretty darn obvious the measles vaccine works. If it didn't we would see a lot more than a few houndred cases a year.

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Your arguement sounds flawed and lacking in research IMO.
To be honest, it's been over a year since I researched the measles and the MMR vaccine. I'm going by memory and stand firm in my stance. I don't have time to go back over all my notes. I see you are new to the boards and wasn't around when I posted regularly here. I just don't have time to anymore since I've made my decision. I'm not fighting with you. I'm anti vax but again, I think it's extremely naive to think that we could stop the vax program and not have any negative outcomes.
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#83 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 05:38 PM
 
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I found your posts in this thread interesting, CanidFL.

Dad to DD 9/2008
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#85 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 07:25 PM
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and yet, its okay that babies are dying from vaccines? vaccines that aren't even proven to work.

I don't agree that the measles vaccine works.

I also think natural immunity is best - the measles aren't dangerous in my eyes to be against natural immunity of it, and since most poeple who catch the measles are vaccinated, and most adults are not up to date on this vaccine, then it's not providing herd immunity - or adults who werent vaccinated would be spreading it, more unvaxxed kids would be catching it, and more babies would be catching it.

measles out break:
A total of 130 cases were registered at the Dhankutta District Hospital.....All the cases gave history of measles vaccination
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16583967

Alaska 1998 - 33 cases of measles, 26 of those cases were people who were vaccinated.

Atlanta - Between October 3 and November 23, 1990, clinical mumps developed in 54 students (attack rate, 18%), 53 of whom had been vaccinated.

Maury County, Tennessee- At the primarily affected high school, where 98% of students and all but 1 student with mumps had been vaccinated before the outbreak, 68 mumps cases occurred.

early 1988 an outbreak of 84 measles cases occurred at a college in Colorado in which over 98 percent of students had documentation of adequate measles immunity (physician diagnosed measles, receipt of live measles vaccine on or after the first birthday, or serologic evidence of immunity) due to an immunization requirement in effect since 1986.

An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent. Nineteen (70 per cent) of the cases were students who had histories of measles vaccination at 12 months of age or older.

measles were down before the vaccine came into play:
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html
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#86 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 09:19 PM
 
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If a parent does their research and decides that it is the right choice for them, I have absolutely NO problem with families choosing to vaccinate, for whatever reason (exposure risk, beliefs, etc.)

But the way things are now, with the CDC schedule, immense pressure that parents are put under to vaccinate, and doctors dismissing families from their practices because they are opting to do things differently? BIG problem.

Parents are told which vaccines their children will be getting, with very little advice and input from their doctors on why. Informed consent is not happening. Vaccinating and non/selective/delayed vaccinating parents alike should have a big problem with that...this is unacceptable.

As for legislation "banning" vaccinations...in my opinion the point is that there shouldn't be any legislation about vaccines AT ALL. It should just be a choice that a family can make, and not "mandated" in any way shape or form. If you think that they are safe, and that they work, and you think that your child needs them for whatever reason, by all means, vaccinate your child. But don't turn around and vilify parents who don't make a different choice and hold them to a different standard and make them jump through crazy hoops.
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#87 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 10:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Murihiku View Post
Taking a wild guess here that more women lived in the same town as extended family in the '40s than do today, and thus had more childcare options.

I moved from NZ to North America for my career, and I'm not the only one to be part of a "brain drain." Hardly any of my good friends live in within driving distance of their parents or even their siblings.
In the 1930s, the Dustbowl, the Depression, and the alphabet soup programs of the New Deal had many families moving from their families to where the jobs were. Even under Herbert Hoover, he designated the building of Hoover Dam which moved many families to the deserts of Nevada and Arizona to build that project. BTW, that is how KaisarPermanente got started; Kaisar steel provided the steel for the dam building and the uprooted families needed healthcare while the breadwinner was busy on the dam project, so Henry Kaisar started his brand of healthcare and later hospitals. This has been going on for decades in America, long before WWII. The federal school lunch programs started during WWII to meet the needs of the working mothers.

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#88 of 181 Old 02-02-2009, 10:52 PM
 
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As for the measles vaccine being effective, well, I don't know. It may prevent measles in the vaccinated but where did this 5th disease come from? We never had that when everyone had measles.

Perhaps the measles virus had such a desire to live it simply mutated?
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#89 of 181 Old 02-03-2009, 12:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
and yet, its okay that babies are dying from vaccines? vaccines that aren't even proven to work.

I don't agree that the measles vaccine works.

I also think natural immunity is best - the measles aren't dangerous in my eyes to be against natural immunity of it, and since most poeple who catch the measles are vaccinated, and most adults are not up to date on this vaccine, then it's not providing herd immunity - or adults who werent vaccinated would be spreading it, more unvaxxed kids would be catching it, and more babies would be catching it.
I never said it was ok for babies to die from vaccines. You don't seem to be understanding my point so I'm done with this part of the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
As for the measles vaccine being effective, well, I don't know. It may prevent measles in the vaccinated but where did this 5th disease come from? We never had that when everyone had measles.

Perhaps the measles virus had such a desire to live it simply mutated?
That is a possibility too.
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I found your posts in this thread interesting, CanidFL.
Thanks. I'm not sure if I was explaining my thought process very well but I'm glad it gave you some food for thought
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#90 of 181 Old 02-03-2009, 12:44 AM
 
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Alaska 1998 - 33 cases of measles, 26 of those cases were people who were vaccinated.

An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent. Nineteen (70 per cent) of the cases were students who had histories of measles vaccination at 12 months of age or older.

measles were down before the vaccine came into play:
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html
You do understand what the ratio of vaxed to unvaxed people is, don't you? Helpful hint: it's much higher than 7:3 or 33:7.

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