Let's talk about USA Today article/HIB vaccine - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 25 Old 02-17-2009, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here is the link...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...hib-kids_N.htm

Is there a point in childhood where meningitis is no longer considered deadly? I have read some studies that find a link between bacteria in formula and meningitis so is the risk much less for EBF babies? They site some interesting facts in the article about the disease and it's decline. I was born in the 70's and as far as I know none of us were vaccinated for HIB (this is one of the many reasons I have chosen not to vax my kids for this). Just wanted other people's thoughts on the vaccine it's risks, etc..

In Dr Mendelson's book he says that HIB vax is one of the culprits of SIDs. I hate fear mongering and I hate articles like this one.

Sorry just saw the prev link on the topic
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#2 of 25 Old 02-17-2009, 12:23 PM
 
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isn't saying that hib vaccine causing sids also fearmongering? especially considering sids was around long before the hib vax...
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#3 of 25 Old 02-17-2009, 01:15 PM
 
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I am interested in a comment Mamakay made on another thread about the risks for a child to get HiB later on. I needed to go back and read it but the gist, if I got it right, is that due to less HiB circulating, kids used to get colonized with it around 6 months. But because of the vaccine, this isn't happening. So the colonization still needs to happen and if it does, even a 3 year old could become very ill as the risks at that age are actually now more like a 6 month old due to delays in colonization. She DID say it better than me!

This really interested me, particularly in the context of the thread where a mama's 3 year old was hospitalized with HiB.

If the vax is delaying colonization, this sounds like another unintended consequence of the vaccine where older children are quite susceptible, as if they were 6 months.

Hope Mamakay comes along and corrects my interpretation if I am wrong. I had some questions for her but can't remember what thread she posted that in.
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#4 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 08:18 AM
 
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do you have more information on this? My 16 month old just received her 3rd HiB shot and had to be hospitalized for bacterial meningitis 4 days after the shot.
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#5 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 08:43 AM
 
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I thought it was viral meningitis?
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#6 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 11:04 AM
 
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There were so many threads about this that it was confusing to follow the story, but Lollicup's daughter had viral meningitis.

Update on culture testing negative for bacteria...
Lollicup's description of the time line of events... Scroll down to see it.

Lollicup had a scary and exhausting week, so I think her post above in this thread is probably a typo. Or she could mean that her daughter was hospitalized for suspected bacterial meningitis until the cutlers came back negative for bacteria.
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#7 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lollicup View Post
do you have more information on this? My 16 month old just received her 3rd HiB shot and had to be hospitalized for bacterial meningitis 4 days after the shot.
You said it was viral meningitis in your posts about this. Im confused now

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#8 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovemybubus View Post
I was born in the 70's and as far as I know none of us were vaccinated for HIB (this is one of the many reasons I have chosen not to vax my kids for this).
The HiB vaccine wasn't available in the 70's. That's why 1000 children a year died of HiB then, and virtually none do now.
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#9 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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The HiB vaccine wasn't available in the 70's. That's why 1000 children a year died of HiB then, and virtually none do now.
How many cases and deaths from bacterial meningitis caused by hia, hic, hid, hif, etc. are there now?
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#10 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 12:42 PM
 
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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5750md.htm of Hib, other types and unknown.

Table 1 has yearly cases... not sure where to find yearly death reports.
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#11 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 01:04 PM
 
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Thanks anewmama!

So, 2008.

Hib - 26
Nonserotype B - 159
Unknown serotype - 174
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#12 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 01:25 PM
 
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Thanks anewmama!

So, 2008.

Hib - 26
Nonserotype B - 159
Unknown serotype - 174
Just out of curiosity, why are there so many unknown serotype cases? It would seem to me that anytime someone presents with Hi disease, they would type it. Is it impossible to determine type in some cases?
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#13 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 01:29 PM
 
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The big question is the reporting requirement. Unless all bacterial meningitis cases are REQUIRED to be reported the numbers are funky.

Hib was not reportable until after the vaccine was added to the schedule, so all of the pre-vaccine rates are estimates. There is another thread discussing the basis for the estimates, I'll find it and bump it up.
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#14 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 01:42 PM
 
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Just out of curiosity, why are there so many unknown serotype cases? It would seem to me that anytime someone presents with Hi disease, they would type it. Is it impossible to determine type in some cases?
I don't think they've named them all yet, lol.
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#15 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
The HiB vaccine wasn't available in the 70's. That's why 1000 children a year died of HiB then, and virtually none do now.
So why do we have almost as many cases of invasive h influenzae now as we did when the vaccine was introduced?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ses&deaths.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516405
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#16 of 25 Old 03-23-2009, 02:24 PM
 
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That is marketing, not news.
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#17 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 08:38 AM
 
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You said it was viral meningitis in your posts about this. Im confused now
Sorry! I meant VIRAL meningitis.
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#18 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 08:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by anewmama View Post

This really interested me, particularly in the context of the thread where a mama's 3 year old was hospitalized with HiB.

If the vax is delaying colonization, this sounds like another unintended consequence of the vaccine where older children are quite susceptible, as if they were 6 months.

Hope Mamakay comes along and corrects my interpretation if I am wrong. I had some questions for her but can't remember what thread she posted that in.
This is the information I needed. My DD was 16 months old when she got the HiB shot alone. Perhaps younger children tolerate HiB better than older children do.
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#19 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 12:36 PM
 
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Lollicup, it's actually the reverse. Younger children do not tolerate Hib better. When my daughter got the shot, she was 23 months and actually more or less out of the typical range for HiB disease. However, due to some questions and the fact that my daughter is in daycare, I decided to do this one vax for now. She has been 100% breastfed and still is. But less so lately and this if part of why I decided to do this vax, in addition to some questions about their ability to form antibodies and less Hib circulating. But in general, no, younger kids are not able to tolerate it more. They can acquire some immunity from their mothers provided the mom's have it but this starts to wane as I understand it after about 2-3 months. So until they can form antibodies at around 2-3, they are quite vulnerable. Although their being breastfed can help protect them past the 2-3 month period... perhaps 'holding' them until they are 2-3 and can start building their own immunity (which is it's own complicated subject...).
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#20 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by anewmama View Post
I am interested in a comment Mamakay made on another thread about the risks for a child to get HiB later on. I needed to go back and read it but the gist, if I got it right, is that due to less HiB circulating, kids used to get colonized with it around 6 months. But because of the vaccine, this isn't happening. So the colonization still needs to happen and if it does, even a 3 year old could become very ill as the risks at that age are actually now more like a 6 month old due to delays in colonization. She DID say it better than me!

This really interested me, particularly in the context of the thread where a mama's 3 year old was hospitalized with HiB.

If the vax is delaying colonization, this sounds like another unintended consequence of the vaccine where older children are quite susceptible, as if they were 6 months.

Hope Mamakay comes along and corrects my interpretation if I am wrong. I had some questions for her but can't remember what thread she posted that in.
That's exactly what I'm thinking, and I think you explained it better than I did.
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#21 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 06:53 PM
 
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It will be a cold day in he11 when an article like this considers the broad context of the story--Were these children breastfed? Were they in daycare? Dr. Bob Sears believes that chances are next to nil that breastfed babies not in daycare will catch HiB. But you will never see a study to confirm this--at least not one that a journal will be willing to publish. The results could prove unfavorable to the pro-vax ideology. It's better to exploit these cases to promote the fear-mongering message: It could happen to your child, too. Mwa-ha-ha-ha!

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#22 of 25 Old 03-24-2009, 09:41 PM
 
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We do know that none of the Minnesota cases were in day care.

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#23 of 25 Old 03-25-2009, 12:20 AM
 
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You would think the parents that chose to not vax were probably breast-feeding or did for a year or two......I mean most of us who have decided to not vax have done hours of research and know the importance of bf......JMHO
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#24 of 25 Old 03-25-2009, 12:44 AM
 
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The Hib vaccination worked too well. It prevented carriage of the bacteria which no one expected. This has changed how Hib circulates but no one is quite sure exactly how or what implications this has. The big risks now are that we don't get (or boost) natural immunity to it and that other types of Hi may become more prevalent and even more invasive. In general, the scientific consensus is that there is no serotype replacement going on but others have sounded warnings after observing a slow and steady increase in invasive infections caused by non-b Hi. Also, Hib is on the rise in a couple other countries even though the vaccine is still being used -- and it is speculated that one of the big reasons may be the change in carriage and circulation.

Overall, from what I have read, I've gathered that under the age of three, children have less of an ability to react to Hib if it invades. This isn't to say they can't mount any kind of an immune response. Our immune systems are complicated and pretty good at defending us but Hib is pretty virulent and good at invading. This is what puts kids under 5 at greater risk.

The question a few of us have been tossing around though is whether or not older (5+) non-vaccinated kids might remain or become more at risk given that they don't get a chance to develop or boost natural immunity.

It is funny because the articles I've read against serotype replacement have speculated that Hib wasn't very common pre-vaccine era so that is why we aren't seeing much of a difference once carriage was eliminated in kids. Personally, I think that is a poor guess. If the opposite was true and Hib was common in kids but not as commonly invasive as we tend to think it is, then we might only see a slow and steady increase in non-type b infections. Hah, lots of armchair research, here.

Also, I think breastfeeding is protective and that a kid's risk probably increases when weaned - no matter what age that is. In fact, in some European countries where the average age of weaning is older, the risk period for Hib is later than in the US. And in general, the longer you wait to wean, probably the better.

(Sorry, no references separating actual research from my opinions! I'm a bit disorganized as of late. )

Me (37) ~ DH (39) ~ DS (3) ~ TTC #2 since 4/10
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#25 of 25 Old 03-25-2009, 01:09 AM
 
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isn't saying that hib vaccine causing sids also fearmongering? especially considering sids was around long before the hib vax...
Not really "fear mongering" in my opinion, but educating. We are constantly getting bombarded with "vax your child or else!" messages. I don't find a Dr. mentioning in his book that there may be a possible link between a vax and SIDS fear mongering.
However, I can't find any reference to HIb in Dr. Mendelsohns book. I don't think the HIb vax was around when "How to raise a child in spite of your doctor" was written. I did find him linking DTaP with SIDS though.
OP...I am 28 and was never vaxed for HIB, my mother never heard of it and obviously never lost any sleep over it.
Many studies have shown EBF babies to have more protection from it.
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