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#121 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 04:56 AM
 
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I don't believe this one bit. Particularly since there really is no care for measles other than letting it ride out.
What exactly is it that you don't believe at? I did say measles is a self-limiting disease.
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#122 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Th1Th2 - can you give me a breakdown of who you think is at risk for severe complications from measles. Do you have any idea on who is at risk of complications from the measles vaccine and what complications we would be talking about?

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#123 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 05:57 AM
 
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Th1Th2 - can you give me a breakdown of who you think is at risk for severe complications from measles. Do you have any idea on who is at risk of complications from the measles vaccine and what complications we would be talking about?
There should be no complications at all from measles per se because this is exactly the nature of the disease. Measles only lasts when the process of toxic elimination is over ----and this process is manifested by symptoms. This is also the reason measles demands no treatment at all, just supportive care. So is measles really fatal? Hmmm... Ask any doctors out there on how they manage measles and they will tell you to treat measles symptomatically with drugs. Now this action is the root cause of all complications from measles. For example, giving fever-reducing drugs, antibiotics, IVFs, steroids, etc,. where each of these interventions actually impede the disease process and can result to other secondary complications. There you go.
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#124 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 06:46 AM
 
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Do you have any idea on who is at risk of complications from the measles vaccine and what complications we would be talking about?
The measles virus from vaccine is completely different from the native measles because of alteration. Since the immune system is capable of recognizing diseases in its native form, the viruses in the vaccines are not eliminated by the body including other contaminants. You can check the package inserts for complications although they are limited but significant. Vaccine damage varies from healthy individuals.
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#125 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have been thinking about risks of the disease and risks of the vaccine. I remember being told that measles pretty much wiped out a tribe in South America as they had no natural immunity to measles and the virus went wild. I am wondering if anyone knows anything about this.

I have been able to find this:
http://www.nku.edu/~humed1/darkness_...ments/0312.htm

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Patrick Tierney alleges in his book, "Darkness in El Dorado" that renowned anthropologists may have intentionally introduced the measles to the Yanomami tribespeople to test their evolution theories
Which seems to be highly controversial. Apparently the Edmonston B measles vaccine was used.
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Though the scientists claim they gave the vaccinations to protect the Yanomami, Tierney says that over a three-month period following the vaccinations, "the worst epidemic in the Yanomami's history broke out," he writes in The New Yorker. He also states that his research of the expedition suggests that the epidemic "closely tracked" the course of the mission.
This is obviously being refuted and the position of the anthropologists who administered the vaccine is being defended.

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#126 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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A popular strain, the Edmonston B vaccine, has been licensed since 1963 in the United States. This vaccine often results with a high rate fever and rash but these symptoms can be undermined through the administration of a small dose of immunoglobulin.(2)
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/Bio_160...lesvaccine.htm

I wonder if the Yanomami tribespeople were administered immunoglobulin. I did read about them being administered antibiotics :

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#127 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 07:41 AM
 
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Even innocent babies who are NOT supposed to get measles are being induced with measles in a brutal way.

*

http://www.*********/v/ez2.html
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#128 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/57/8/1333

Edmonston B and a further attenuated measles vaccine - a placebo controlled double blind comparison.

This study is from 1967.

And the Edmonston B does not look good.

I could not find mention of what the placebo was.

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#129 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 01:03 PM
 
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The reason humans still exist.




No, like I said they are part of the physiologic processes in humans. Can you imagine how are you going to live with a sterile bowel?

But, if you are talking about those diseases in the vaccines altered by man, YES, they are designed for human depopulation.
Nope that is not what I am talking about at all. But apparently that is all you want to talk about since you keep changing everything I say to this. So I will let you have this conversation with yourself because I am tried of repeating myself.
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#130 of 164 Old 03-01-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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This is a recommendation only for acute cases of measles. Prevention hasn't been established, and since Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, caution needs to be exerted when giving this vitamin

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vit...tient-vitamina
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#131 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This is a recommendation only for acute cases of measles. Prevention hasn't been established, and since Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, caution needs to be exerted when giving this vitamin

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vit...tient-vitamina
I do not think anyone has suggested using vit A as a preventative treatment, but rather in acute measles.

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#132 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 01:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
I have been thinking about risks of the disease and risks of the vaccine. I remember being told that measles pretty much wiped out a tribe in South America as they had no natural immunity to measles and the virus went wild. I am wondering if anyone knows anything about this.
Lots of European diseases did a terrible amount of harm in the New World (or so the orthodox history of medicine will tell you) and other places we sailed to.

The following is from an interesting little page on European disease in the new world:

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When measles first appeared amongst aboriginal populations, it swept through them with a violence that was unknown among more Old World nations in which the disease had been endemic for centuries. Such was the great epidemic in the Fiji Islands in 1874, and those which occurred in the South Sea Islands and among Native American Indians in the Americas.
I don't presently have any descriptions of deaths. From the opening sentence of the quote I assume there were lots.

I seem to remember reading a theory that Syphilis travelled in the opposite direction.
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#133 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 01:26 PM
 
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Measles is more severe in older people, and any time an infectious disease hits everyone (from newborns to the elderly) all at once, it's going to cause chaos.
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#134 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 01:43 PM
 
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Measles is more severe in older people, and any time an infectious disease hits everyone (from newborns to the elderly) all at once, it's going to cause chaos.
True. It would be interesting if they had a more detailed description so that one could make some better judgements about that. I guess it's asking too much for 1874, but those Victorians were pretty good record keepers... you never know. It would be really cool to find some primary sources on this.
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#135 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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True. It would be interesting if they had a more detailed description so that one could make some better judgements about that. I guess it's asking too much for 1874, but those Victorians were pretty good record keepers... you never know. It would be really cool to find some primary sources on this.
Kids catching it couldn't have been significantly more serious in the indigenous populations compared to the Europeans. Measles han't been around long enough for Europeans to be "adapted" to measles. I think the reported severity had to have been the result of it hitting almost 100% of the population all at once in an epidemic explosion.
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#136 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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Kids catching it couldn't have been significantly more serious in the indigenous populations compared to the Europeans. Measles han't been around long enough for Europeans to be "adapted" to measles. I think the reported severity had to have been the result of it hitting almost 100% of the population all at once in an epidemic explosion.
Could well be. I'd still be interested to see some pre-modern medicine first hand descriptions of a measles outbreak.
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#137 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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Could well be. I'd still be interested to see some pre-modern medicine first hand descriptions of a measles outbreak.
Yeah, me, too.
I just find it really unlikely that "white people" are adapted to measles on some genetic level. If that were the case, having non-caucation heritage would be an obvious risk factor for measles mortality even today (unless, I guess, some sort of super-fast natural selection started in the 1700's or something).

But...it just seems really implausible to me.
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#138 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...fb7AEWCAM5f9jQ
A really good outline from the WHO on just who is at risk for measles complications, how to recognise measles complicatios, treatment of measles. I of course am a bit selective when it comes to how I would treat it, with paracetamol really low down on my list of priorities. However, the information is very to the point and essentially in line with what has been discussed here with regard to poverty, malnutrition etc.

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#139 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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Yeah, me, too.
I just find it really unlikely that "white people" are adapted to measles on some genetic level. If that were the case, having non-caucation heritage would be an obvious risk factor for measles mortality even today (unless, I guess, some sort of super-fast natural selection started in the 1700's or something).

But...it just seems really implausible to me.
Unless it was like the black death and wiped out a really significant proportion of the population I can't see that happening. For all I know it could be that the illness itself adapts. Perhaps it is to it's advantage to have you up and about infecting people rather than dead too quick? Perhaps it's down to Europeans having been exposed to the virus measles evolved from? Perhaps not...
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#140 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 03:44 PM
 
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Unless it was like the black death and wiped out a really significant proportion of the population I can't see that happening. For all I know it could be that the illness itself adapts. Perhaps it is to it's advantage to have you up and about infecting people rather than dead too quick? Perhaps it's down to Europeans having been exposed to the virus measles evolved from? Perhaps not...
It's quite possible that measles was more virulent when it first emerged, but the less lethal varients were more successful.
And...I've never heard that exposure to dogs with distemper provides immunity to measles, but I guess it's possible.
Huh.
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#141 of 164 Old 03-02-2009, 05:48 PM
 
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In 1989-1990 there were 84,000 cases of measles in Guerrero, Mexico resulting in almost 6,000 deaths. 4,000 of them being under 5 years old.

And I found this information on measles throughout Mexico.
Quote:
Measles epidemics continued to occur, with rates surging from 24.2 cases per 100,000 residents to 80.2 in 1990 before falling sharply to 5.9 in 1991. Even here, however, improvement over past decades could be noted because epidemics occurred only every four or five years as compared with the previous pattern of occurring every other year.
I kinda doubt the rate of measles decreased due to vaccination programs. Also they didn't die from measles. They died due to secondary problems, mostly diarrhea which is a common problem to die from in Mexico anyway. The measles just made each person more susceptible.

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#142 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 02:01 AM
 
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It's quite possible that measles was more virulent when it first emerged, but the less lethal varients were more successful.
And...I've never heard that exposure to dogs with distemper provides immunity to measles, but I guess it's possible.
Huh.
A bit of wild speculation never hurt anyone... well not very often. I like my measles has evolved theory best It kind of makes sense in a speculative theory kind of way... A virus finds itself in a new species and hence a new environment with new selection pressures giving rise to fast evolution. I guess if this were true somebody will have written a paper on it.
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#143 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.ilri.org/ILRIPubAware/Upl...ermsSteel).htm

Quote:
The close similarity of the measles virus to the rinderpest virus suggests that the latter transferred from cattle to humans and then evolved into the measles virus by changing its properties to adapt to us. . . . Our intimacy with cattle has been going on for the 9,000 years since we domesticated them—ample time for the rinderpest virus to discover us nearby.
Kind of relevant.

It would seem that people are now manipulating the virus through the use of vaccines, creating vaccine modified measles, something I still have not thouroughly understood.

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#144 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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I appreciate that there are other types of study that tell you different things, in a different way, but what's wrong with epidemiological studies?
Aren't epidemiological studies known to be easily mainpulated and/or clouded by bias??

I just read this quote from something HB wrote a while back. She says the quote came from an opinion in a medical journal but the source is not given.

"Epidemiology is like a bikini. What is revealed is interesting. But what is concealed is crucial"

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#145 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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Aren't epidemiological known to be easily mainpulated and/or clouded by bias??

I just read this quote from something HB wrote a while back. She says the quote came from an opinion in a medical journal but the source is not given.

"Epidemiology is like a bikini. What is revealed is interesting. But what is concealed is crucial"
I guess any study can be manipulated by biases. I'm not sure why this type more than others, but I have very little specific knowledge in this area. The important thing is to keep that in mind when interpreting results.
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#146 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, not every study can be manipulted by bias. Hence double blind placebo controlled studies are the way to go if you want to eradicate any bias. The problem is that it is not ethical to deny children the life saving effects of vaccines. So this study will never be done for vaccines. At least not while vaccines are believed to be essential to life.

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#147 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 04:34 PM
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"Epidemiology is like a bikini. What is revealed is interesting. But what is concealed is crucial"
I love this, so I tried to find a source. It looks like it was said by Alvan Feinstein of Yale. http://ecoworld.com/features/2008/04...-the-watchers/

This article has some great information.

Quote:
All these studies are called epidemiological studies, which seek to find statistical correlations, mostly quite subtle, between diet, lifestyle, or environmental factors and disease. Real sciences, like chemistry and physics, seek to find cause and effect. Epidemiological studies supply only statistical links between this or that risk factor and some disease. Such studies almost never prove cause and effect, and they are subject to researcher bias and political agendas, poor design, confounding variables, bad data gathering and more.
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#148 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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No, not every study can be manipulted by bias. Hence double blind placebo controlled studies are the way to go if you want to eradicate any bias. The problem is that it is not ethical to deny children the life saving effects of vaccines. So this study will never be done for vaccines. At least not while vaccines are believed to be essential to life.
It depends what you mean by bias. Publication bias can effect any study. I'd have thought this should be at least as much of a concern for people on this forum as any other type of bias.

Also, I would expect (though I'm no expert, and happy to be corrected) issues with blinding leading to bias would depend on the nature of the data you are collecting and how you collect it.
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#149 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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No, not every study can be manipulted by bias. Hence double blind placebo controlled studies are the way to go if you want to eradicate any bias. The problem is that it is not ethical to deny children the life saving effects of vaccines. So this study will never be done for vaccines. At least not while vaccines are believed to be essential to life.
Even RCTs can be biased. This is an excellent articulation of the potential problem:

http://covertrationingblog.com/gener...ls-and-breasts

Quote:
The sad truth is that the results of RCTs are invariably dependent on the bias built into their design, and even if internally they are statistically legitimate, they can often send us down the wrong path.

Those who design RCTs (the smart ones, at least) know this. They are like smart trial attorneys, in that they know the answer before they ever dare to ask the question. So they tailor their “question” in such a way as to yield the answer they want to get. Indeed, if a lawyer should end up asking a question that produces an unexpected answer, he or she is completely incompetent and ought to be sued for legal malpractice. In more cases than one might think, the same is true for those who design RCTs.
(I suggest reading the whole blog entry.)
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#150 of 164 Old 03-03-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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I love this, so I tried to find a source. It looks like it was said by Alvan Feinstein of Yale. http://ecoworld.com/features/2008/04...-the-watchers/

This article has some great information.
Paige!!! Thanks for tracking that down!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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