Risk factors for severe measles - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-03-2009, 07:45 PM
 
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Yes. I recently read a book about Vioxx (Poison Pills). Merck was doing a study to try and demonstrate that Vioxx caused fewer stomach problems than the NSAIDs. Merck got to choose which NSAID Vioxx would be compared to, so of course they chose one which caused a lot of stomach problems.

This story gets better, though. Vioxx turned out to cause more heart problems. But Vioxx claimed, on very little basis, that the comparison NSAID turned out to be protective against heart problems. They came up with several other clever explanations after that one.

I don't think there is any sort of study that cannot be mucked with, under the current system.

But epidemiological studies are somewhat easier to muck with, because you generally start out with a lot of choices.

For example, when the CDC wanted some studies exonerating thimerosal, they went to Denmark. There were a lot of advantages to Denmark, but the ones that really count sort of flew under the radar. These were: different vaccine schedule than the U.S., fewer vaccines, given later.

The other thing they used to great effect, was a change in the way autism was being counted, which happened, conveniently, at the same time that thimerosal was removed from the vaccines. The change in stats made it possible to show autism rising just when the mercury came out. Proving...that mercury in vaccines PREVENTS autism, just as that NSAID prevented heart disease...
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I love this, so I tried to find a source. It looks like it was said by Alvan Feinstein of Yale. http://ecoworld.com/features/2008/04...-the-watchers/

This article has some great information.
Two . To be bookmarked

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Even RCTs can be biased. This is an excellent articulation of the potential problem:

http://covertrationingblog.com/gener...ls-and-breasts

(I suggest reading the whole blog entry.)
Another

Deborah - as usual you pretty much hit the nail on the head (to my way of thinking anyway).

I am just amazed over and over again at what is passed off as the science of vaccines and the vaccine schedule. And then to say that breaking up the MMR is not scientific is just kinda

I do however think that with all the problems that do exist with study design and bias and ethics - there has to be a starting point for trying to establish just what is happening with vaccines and the vaccine schedule. Active survelliance seems to be a good start. A Case control study on unvaxed versus vaxed might be nice. I know RCT is not possible, and has it's limits too.
But I think it is obvious that the system as it is now is a bit of a farce.
What gets me , is that children are essentially being experimented on and the public health and safety are being experimented with. By people who are too arraogant to realise they do not know what they are doing.

I do not have all the facts and figures and eloquent phrasing to convey this, but it is a very strong hunch that I have and the more I read, the more this seems to be the case. Maybe one day I will be as knowledgable as HB and have it all at my fingertips, but for now I remain a mother who is chosing not to vaccinate her family and waiting for the clear indication that this would indeed be in my families best interest. For now I am waiting.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:55 AM
 
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I do however think that with all the problems that do exist with study design and bias and ethics - there has to be a starting point for trying to establish just what is happening with vaccines and the vaccine schedule. Active survelliance seems to be a good start. A Case control study on unvaxed versus vaxed might be nice. I know RCT is not possible, and has it's limits too.
But I think it is obvious that the system as it is now is a bit of a farce.
What gets me , is that children are essentially being experimented on and the public health and safety are being experimented with. By people who are too arraogant to realise they do not know what they are doing.
That's pretty much the history of medicine right there. There was a Horizon documentary 15 or so years ago called The Courage To Fail. I like the phrase and I think it sums up one side of what you're talking about. Arrogant people taking risks with other peoples lives is probably the other side.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:27 AM
 
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I just reread my post and was filled with fear that I might have been careless enough in my use of language to fall the wrong side of the forum rules again. Just to clarify, in mentioning "The Courage To Fail", I was talking about how the people being described as arrogant etc... may view themselves.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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@ema-adama
This may be a dumb question, but what question do you want the study you mentioned
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A Case control study on unvaxed versus vaxed might be nice
to answer? I haven't yet gotten deep enough yet with my questioning to know kind of even slightly do-able study would close the book on this for me. There is a niggling feeling that I keep getting that such a study can't be done. This would push the safety/value of vaccination towards some sort of informed-faith based position.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...VGF5k9QIIwFZJw

Risk factors for fatal measles infections.


Anemia, <10th percentile for weight and height seem to be predictive of fatality. Essentially being malnourished.

ShuttIt - I'll write more about the study when DS is not sitting my lap pulling out my keys

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Old 03-05-2009, 11:10 AM
 
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ShuttIt - I'll write more about the study when DS is not sitting my lap pulling out my keys
Much appreciated.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:42 PM
 
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Hrm.. Anemia is a risk factor? (I haven't read the link just the post) My 2nd daughter was very anemic when she was a toddler/preschooler. It was caught when they were doing a blood test because of some drug she was on for ring worm of the scalp that would not go away. (she got it from my brother's kid. and this was before I knew better.) Had they not been doing that blood test however.. we would have never know. You know.. she is 10 and I was never able to convince anyone to do a follow up test? They just looked in her eyes and said she was OK.

Anyway.. I was never told by a doctor what caused her anemia. I had to figure it out by myself. It was milk. She drank lots and lots of milk. And silly me, I thought it was good for her at the time! The doctor put her on such mega doses of iron that the pharmacist called to double check the script. She thought it was a mistake. On the bottle it said not to take X amount of time before or after having milk. She was supposed to take it three times a day. I called the pharmacy and was like.. at this rate she will never get milk.. and they were oh just do the best you can. No one told me too much calcium inhibited the abortion of iron. Ever.. I figured it out on my own.. cut her down to 6oz of milk a day and the anemia went away on it's own.

So, my point is.. how many children are running around out there with anemia and have no idea they have it? How many parents think they are giving their children something good for them and are really causing the anemia?
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Much appreciated.
There are a myriad of questions that would be nice to have answers to, and with this not being my profession and me not having access to anything with which to do a study - this is pure fantasy. And I am still defining just what my wish list would be. I think it has something to do with trying to understand just how vital vaccines are to the health and well being of children. A fairly contentious idea, I realise.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

I have not read the above critically at all and cannot vouch for it. But it looks interesting.

However, the information I would like to have clarity on:
  • the numbers with/without a neurological disorder
  • the numbers with/without autoimmune conditions
  • the numbers for SIDS (and SBS - shaken baby syndrome)


  • numbers on children hospitalised/receiving medical care post vaccination
  • numbers of unvaccinated who are maimed/die

Both in vaccinated (partially and fully) and unvaccinated (as in never been vaccinated for anything) children. With things like breastfeeding, nutritional status, socio-economic status, educational level of the parents, etc being factored in. I guess this would create a baseline for trying to figure out just what is going on - see if any patterns begin to emerge. And go from there.

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Old 03-05-2009, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hrm.. Anemia is a risk factor? (I haven't read the link just the post)
This seems to be the conclusion of the study.... not me pulling something out of thin air

That is the one needle DS had - to check his Hb and RBC's. I was relieved when his Hb came back well within the norm despite no iron supplementation - although that is not really relevant. But I do think it is important to know. Measles or not.

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Old 03-06-2009, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ema-adama
I do however think that with all the problems that do exist with study design and bias and ethics - there has to be a starting point for trying to establish just what is happening with vaccines and the vaccine schedule. Active survelliance seems to be a good start. A Case control study on unvaxed versus vaxed might be nice. I know RCT is not possible, and has it's limits too.
But I think it is obvious that the system as it is now is a bit of a farce.
What gets me , is that children are essentially being experimented on and the public health and safety are being experimented with. By people who are too arraogant to realise they do not know what they are doing.
That's pretty much the history of medicine right there. There was a Horizon documentary 15 or so years ago called The Courage To Fail. I like the phrase and I think it sums up one side of what you're talking about. Arrogant people taking risks with other peoples lives is probably the other side.
I have been thinking about this post and I am not satisfied that I completely understand you. In what way is my previous post a history of medicine?

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Old 03-06-2009, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shuttlt
That's pretty much the history of medicine right there. There was a Horizon documentary 15 or so years ago called The Courage To Fail. I like the phrase and I think it sums up one side of what you're talking about. Arrogant people taking risks with other peoples lives is probably the other side.
I have been thinking about this post and I am not satisfied that I completely understand you. In what way is my previous post a history of medicine?
I was probably explaining myself badly, and maybe didn't have a point to begin with. I think I was observing that a lot of medical advances have been delivered by people who were prepared to risk killing their patients if they got it wrong. Medical advance seems to me to be a process that is necessarily full of arrogance.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was probably explaining myself badly, and maybe didn't have a point to begin with. I think I was observing that a lot of medical advances have been delivered by people who were prepared to risk killing their patients if they got it wrong. Medical advance seems to me to be a process that is necessarily full of arrogance.
OK, that is clearer to me. And I think is a very large part of why I personally am having a hard time trusting my doctor when no honest communication is allowed. It makes the argument for me injecting my child with an unknown drug a very hard argument to make.

Do you have any thoughts on how a study could be designed that would at least start looking at the other side of the impact of vaccines beyond triggering an immune response to develop antibodies without the clinical disease?

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Old 03-06-2009, 11:30 AM
 
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Do you have any thoughts on how a study could be designed that would at least start looking at the other side of the impact of vaccines beyond triggering an immune response to develop antibodies without the clinical disease?
I think one thing that needs to happen is that we need to clear about what question such a study is supposed to answer. For me there are two important questions....

1). Does the current vaccination policy save more harm than it causes?
2). Given the current vaccination policy, does vaccinating my child increase or decrease the risk of something bad happening to my child?

I think the first question may not be definitively answerable, the second one is tricky and hugely time consuming, but I think probably is answerable.

One of the problems as I see it is defining sufficiently accurately what we mean by harm/something bad. Do we mean hospital admissions? Do we mean just death? Do we mean any condition in a list that we all agree in advance. Right now there seems to be a lot of debate as to what the harm is that we should be looking for, so I don't think this is a trivial thing to define at all.

What questions would you want the study to answer?
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