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#1 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Someone once posted on this forum about link between autism and tylenol. It had to do with children given acetaminophen after the MMR more likely to become autistic than children given ibuprofen. I'm trying to find the actual study or website I once read (thought I bookmarked it but can't find it) - can anyone help? (Also, your thoughts about this information too would be appreciated! Do you think this only applies to MMR or could it also maybe apply to other vaccines as well - or even other illnesses?)

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#2 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 01:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
Someone once posted on this forum about link between autism and tylenol. It had to do with children given acetaminophen after the MMR more likely to become autistic than children given ibuprofen. I'm trying to find the actual study or website I once read (thought I bookmarked it but can't find it) - can anyone help? (Also, your thoughts about this information too would be appreciated! Do you think this only applies to MMR or could it also maybe apply to other vaccines as well - or even other illnesses?)

Hi, I posted a thread once about tylenol given before/after vaccinations, but I'm not sure if mine is the one you're thinking of.

I didn't have a study, but I had stumbled upon an explanation of sodium benzoate, a preservative used in tylenol. Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_benzoate

"...Professor Peter Piper of the University of Sheffield claims that sodium benzoate by itself can damage and inactivate vital parts of DNA in a cell's mitochondria. Mitochondria consume oxygen to generate ATP, the body's energy currency. If they are damaged due to disease, the cell malfunctions and may enter apoptosis. There are many illnesses now tied to DNA damage, including Parkinson's and other neurodegenerative diseases, but above all, the aging process in general.[9][10][11][12][13]"


I then thought immediately about Hannah Poling, the little girl who developed autism from vaccines, so says the federal government. However, it is believed that she had an "underlying mitochondrial disorder" which pre-disposed her to developing autism from the shots. (If you google Hannah Poling and mitochodrial disorder, you'll come up with tons of stuff.)

So I wonder if by giving tylenol before vaccines, we are interfering with our children's mitochodrial function, thus predisposing them to autism.

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#3 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 02:04 AM
 
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thanks, that's really fascinating (and scary to think of all these preservatives in our food and medicinal supply)

Hoping someone will chime in with more info on this and MMR...

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#4 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 02:06 AM
 
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My apologies... I don't know why the party hat guy showed up in the previous message... the topic is not exactly party mood ykwim?

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#5 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by emma1325 View Post

I didn't have a study, but I had stumbled upon an explanation of sodium benzoate, a preservative used in tylenol. Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_benzoate
WOW - incredibly interesting. And a bit depressing to learn I've been consuming all kinds of foods with this preservative for many years!! So basically this stuff is used as a preservative in not only tylenol but all sorts of foods including pickles (and other vinegar foods) - and I wonder if THAT could play a part in this mitocondrial damage, or whatnot, as well. (how many pregnant women eat pickles? ha - ok stereotype I know - sorry - I didn't crave them myself) maybe I am jumping the gun here or understanding this wrong, but it makes me want to avoid this preservative if it could cause DNA damage? But I am confused it also said:

"It is found naturally in cranberries, prunes, greengage plums, cinnamon, ripe cloves, and apples." - now is the "natural" sodium benzoate also bad? Or is it in a different form or smaller quantity? Is the amount in tylenol any greater than that found in all the foods listed at wikipedia? (carbonated drinks, jams and fruit juices, etc)
This is a lot to think about, even aside from the vaccination issue. I guess it is not as easy as just avoiding tylenol. Reading that page makes me want to be more strict about trying to avoid foods with preservatives (I am guilty! - at least I rarely drink soft drinks, which was listed too) - thanks - never read about it before... very interesting.

Still looking for the other study mentioned.. hope someone out there has link.

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#6 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 10:04 AM
 
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I do believe the study was posted on the Age Of Autism blog and that's where it came from. You might want to do a search on their site.

http://www.ageofautism.com/
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#7 of 31 Old 04-03-2009, 11:25 AM
 
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WOW - incredibly interesting. And a bit depressing to learn I've been consuming all kinds of foods with this preservative for many years!! So basically this stuff is used as a preservative in not only tylenol but all sorts of foods including pickles (and other vinegar foods) - and I wonder if THAT could play a part in this mitocondrial damage, or whatnot, as well. (how many pregnant women eat pickles? ha - ok stereotype I know - sorry - I didn't crave them myself) maybe I am jumping the gun here or understanding this wrong, but it makes me want to avoid this preservative if it could cause DNA damage? But I am confused it also said:

"It is found naturally in cranberries, prunes, greengage plums, cinnamon, ripe cloves, and apples." - now is the "natural" sodium benzoate also bad? Or is it in a different form or smaller quantity? Is the amount in tylenol any greater than that found in all the foods listed at wikipedia? (carbonated drinks, jams and fruit juices, etc)
This is a lot to think about, even aside from the vaccination issue. I guess it is not as easy as just avoiding tylenol. Reading that page makes me want to be more strict about trying to avoid foods with preservatives (I am guilty! - at least I rarely drink soft drinks, which was listed too) - thanks - never read about it before... very interesting.

Still looking for the other study mentioned.. hope someone out there has link.

I don't know about all the questions you asked...I wish I could find more info on it. Hopefully someone will be able to answer those questions; I'm curious too.

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#8 of 31 Old 04-04-2009, 04:59 PM
 
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"Hoping someone will chime in with more info on this and MMR..."

Please read carefully, because this is very long, but very important:

I'm going to start off by saying outright that I strongly believe that Tylenol is behind the rise of not only autism, but the other childhood "A" disorders, including asthma, allergies and ADHD.

It's only a very strong hunch, but after countless hours researching this issue, all signs point right back at Tylenol.

A few months ago, my 14 year old autistic son began exhibiting extremely aggressive behaviors. They coincided around the time we started working with a behavioral analyst who would give him skittles as a reinforcer. Over a period of about 5 days, he had ingested quite a few of these. (Ordinarily, I don't let him have very much of that sort of thing, but his behavioral analyst made it clear that we needed to have some sort of "reward" for him.) Over that 5 day period, he became very agitated, waking during the night, and just constantly wandering throught the house, acting very strangely. He attacked me, pulling my hair, and biting me. He also engaged in self-injurious behavior, hitting his head with whatever was close by, and lying down on the floor, violently banging his head into it. His behavioral analyst was at my house during one of these attacks, and we both agreed that this was very strange, and she thought maybe he was acting out because he was in pain. I gave him some Tylenol that evening, and took him to his pediatrician the next morning, to have her look him over. She couldn't find anything obviously wrong with him, other than his throat appearing a little red. I mentioned that his behavioral analyst had recently gotten over strep throat, and maybe he had been exposed. He wouldn't allow her to get a throat culture, so she gave me a prescription for an antibiotic and some Tylenol #3 and instructed me to give this to him for a couple of days to see if pain really was the problem. After a couple of days of round the clock dosing with the antibiotic and Tylenol #3, there was absolutely no improvement in behaviors, so I discontinued both and started researching online. I came across the Southampton study wrt food dyes/sodium benzoate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...additives.html

This made perfect sense to me, since the behaviors had started within days of the skittles. So, I eliminated everything in my house that contained FD&C food colorings, and over a period of a few days, the behaviors went away, and didn't return for about 3 weeks.

The behaviors slowly started coming back though, which led me to trying the Feingold diet, (the ADHD diet) and we had a few weeks of good behavior, but there were still times that I felt he was reacting to certain foods, because I was noticing his ears turning red, and he seemed headachey, (rubbing his head a lot). Tylenol is the only OTC pain med approved on Feingold, so each time he had these red ear/headachey episodes, I would give him a dose.

We eventually got to a point where he seemed to be reacting to everything he ingested. His behaviors were becoming out of control again, and he even ended up in the state hospital on 3 separate occasions over a 2 month period, due to his self-injurious and aggressive outbursts. I wasn't getting anywhere with any of the doctors that saw him up to this point, so a googling I went again, and found this:

http://www.newtreatments.org/Sulfur/...photransferase

Dr. Rosemary Waring's research shows that the lack of sulfate is the
primary problem in 73% of these children (another study found low
levels in 92%), but all of those Waring checked had a low PST level
too. Similar sulfate deficiencies have been reported in people with
migraine, rheumatoid arthritis, jaundice, and other allergic
conditions all of which are anecdotally reported as common in the
families of people with autism. Adequate sulfoxidation requires
adequate supplies of B-vitamins, especially vitamin B6. The PST
enzymes are inhibited or overloaded by chocolate, bananas, orange
juice, vanillin, and food colorants such as tartrazine. Removal of
these from the diet and supplementation of sulfates may well relieve
all these symptoms.
The lack of sulfation could well be due to the
largely carbohydrate diet of most of these children. It is likely a
combination of all these things. In any case, toxic compounds of
these aforementioned chemicals can build to dangerous levels. A high
value for the tIAG (?) as well as a high reading for DHPPA (rather
HPHPA-a phenolic metabolite of tyrosine) both indicate a PST problem.


I read with horror this paragraph:

"Since sulfur intake is low, and its oxidation is slow in many
autistic children, sulfate is low, and PST activity is slower than it
would be otherwise. It would seem that this sub optimality of
sulphotransferase activity is a function of low plasma sulfate levels
rather than of deficits in the actual enzyme. Cellular level
enzymatic effects of mercury's binding with proteins include blockage
of sulfur oxidation processes and of the neurotransmitter amino
acids. These have been found to be significant factors in many
autistics. Thus, mercury, and any foodstuff that requires or uses up
sulfate ions during its metabolism, will make the situation worse.
These foodstuffs include foods that supply neurotransmitters, like
bananas (serotonin), chocolate (phenylethylamine), and cheese
(tyramine), apple juice (and one mother reports her child drank a
quart a day!), citrus fruit juices, and paracetamol (Tylenol™). For
instance, one or two minutes after a dose of Tylenol™, the entire
supply of sulfate in the liver is gone!"


I couldn't believe it, because I had indeed given him Tylenol multiple times, and this explained why he was reacting to everything, in addition to craving foods like bananas and apples!

After the second admission, I contacted Thoughtful House in Austin for help. The psychiatrists that were seeing him were of absolutely no help. They insisted that this was a hormonal change, and that boys with autism act this way when they hit puberty, and my only options were to medicate him or institutionalize him. This was unacceptable. I knew there was more to it, and so did the staff at Thoughtful House. It's a long story, but he is doing better now as a result of the elemental diet they placed him on.

While at the local hospital, awaiting transfer to the state hospital, a news story came on about a link between Tylenol and asthma. I was intrigued, but didn't have time to study it too closely at that time. After my son was discharged from the hospital, and seemed to be doing better, I was able to devote more time to this Tylenol issue.

I found the story about the link between prenatal Tylenol use and asthma, and went to pubmed, to see if I could find the original study. To my surprise, I found SEVERAL studies, going back almost TEN years that show a link to Tylenol and asthma and allergies. I was stunned.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

A growing number of studies show that regular use of acetaminophen (paracetamol) carries a dose-dependent risk of developing allergies in general and asthma in particular and of worsening other respiratory diseases and lung function. The most disturbing finding has come from the population-based Avon Longitudinal Study of Parents and Children, in which use of paracetamol-but not aspirin-in late pregnancy was positively associated with asthma when comparing children whose mothers took paracetamol "sometimes" and "most days/daily" with those whose mothers never took it. Assuming a causal relationship, the percentage of asthma attributable to paracetamol use in late pregnancy was 7%. In this review, we present data from the most important studies published since 2000. Although the pathophysiology remains unclear, the available data justify a warning to the general public that the uncritical use of over-the-counter acetaminophen can lead to the development of allergies and asthma, even in utero.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

The prevalence of asthma has increased worldwide. The reasons for this rise remain unclear. Various studies have reported an association between acetaminophen, a widely used analgesic, and diagnosed asthma. In a prospective cohort study, the rate of newly diagnosed asthma was 63% higher among frequent acetaminophen users than nonusers in multivariate analyses. Studies of patients with asthma suggest that acetaminophen challenge can precipitate a decline in FEV(1) > 15% among sensitive individuals. This article reviews the existing literature and evaluates the epidemiologic and pathophysiologic evidence underlying a possible link between acetaminophen and asthma.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

INTRODUCTION: A link between regular paracetamol intake and asthma in adults has recently been postulated. Detoxification of paracetamol may deplete stores of glutathione, which is one of the major antioxidants present in the lung. A reduced source of glutathione in the lung may lead to increased oxidative damage to the epithelium and hence increased frequency and severity of asthma attacks in susceptible individuals. AIM OF STUDY: This study aimed to determine whether regular intake of maximum therapeutic doses of paracetamol reduced serum antioxidant capacity in healthy volunteers. METHODS: Fifteen young healthy volunteers (nine men, six women, mean age 21.3 years, range 19-32) took maximum therapeutic doses of paracetamol (1 g four times a day) for 14 days. On days 0 and 14 blood samples were taken at baseline and hourly for a period of 4 h following ingestion of 1 g paracetamol. Single venous blood samples were collected 1 h after ingestion of 1 g paracetamol on days 4, 7 and 10. Blood samples were analysed for serum paracetamol concentration and total antioxidant capacity. RESULTS: Mean total antioxidant capacity was significantly reduced over the 3-h post-dosing on both days 0 and 14 (P < 0.01). The results from days 4, 7 and 10 showed a trend towards reduced antioxidant activity over time. On day 14 values were consistently lower compared with the corresponding times on day 0 (P < 0.01 at 0, 1, 3 and 4 h, P < 0.05 at 2 h). CONCLUSIONS: Chronic ingestion of maximum therapeutic doses of paracetamol depletes serum antioxidant capacity in healthy volunteers in as few as 14 days, possibly by a reduction in glutathione. This may have implications for analgesic use in asthmatic individuals. Further studies are now required to assess the impact of paracetamol on antioxidant defences in the lung.

Tylenol is known to deplete glutathione, (this is why an overdose will kill you-it exhausts the body's supply of glutathione, and the liver can no longer excrete it) which my son's metabolic profile did show that he was deficient in. Glutathione is the body's "master antioxidant" and is essential for eliminating toxins, including mercury, from the body. Studies are showing that many autistic kids are deficient in glutathione, and also have abnormalities with sulfation.

Lots of good information here, too...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1155402/pg_10/

I believe that this may possibly explain why babies so often get ear infections that first year of life. I believe that the Tylenol that is taken by the pregnant mother, as well as the tylenol given along with vaccines is depleting glutathione to a small degree in the ear canal, making it harder to the body to fight off the infection on its own.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

BACKGROUND: The inflammatory cells documented in chronic otitis media with effusion (OME) spontaneously release oxidants which can induce middle ear (ME) epithelial cell damage. Glutathione (GSH), a major extracellular antioxidant in humans, plays a central role in antioxidant defense. PURPOSE: To evaluate the effects of GSH treatment on chronic otitis media with effusion (OME). SUBJECTS AND INTERVENTION: Sixty children with chronic OME were enrolled, 30 of whom were randomly assigned to the treatment group and 30 to the placebo group. Patients in the treatment group received 600 mg glutathione in 4 mL saline per day subdivided into five 2-minute administrations given by nasal aerosol every 3 or 4 waking hours for 2 weeks. Patients in the control group received 4 mL saline per day following the same procedure as for GSH treatment. RESULTS: Three months after therapy improvement had occurred in 66.6% of patients in the GSH-treated group and in 8% of the control subjects (P <.01). CONCLUSION: On the basis of these results, GSH treatment could be considered for the nonsurgical management of chronic OME.

I believe these frequent ear infections in the first year of life, and the medications used to treat them are setting these kids up for a perfect storm by depleting their sulfates, stripping their gut flora, and depleting their glutathione. The MMR is one in which very high fevers are often reported, and if the gut integrity is already under stress, and more Tylenol is administered, you're only asking for trouble.

For years, I had thought that only vaccines were the cause of my older son's autism. So much so, that I refused to vaccinate my younger son. However, that child also started showing signs of autism, (mostly in the way of speech delay-he is nowhere near as severly autistic as my older son, and will likely lose his diagnosis of PDD-NOS as he gets older.) I took Tylenol very frequently during the end of my pregnancy, due to severe back pain, as well as taking Tylox (which contains acetaminophen) for pain after my cesarean. My younger child also has mild asthma.

Many of the medications that are given to women after birth contain acetaminophen (Tylox, Darvocet, Lorcet, Lortab, etc).

Another thing that I discovered is that the practice of administering Tylenol before vaccinations is not supported by scientific evidence.

I've also found evidence that Tylenol causes mitochondrial damage:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Since the first mitochondrial dysfunction was described in the 1960s, the medicine has advanced in its understanding the role mitochondria play in health and disease. Damage to mitochondria is now understood to play a role in the pathogenesis of a wide range of seemingly unrelated disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disease, dementia, Alzheimer's disease, epilepsy, migraine headaches, strokes, neuropathic pain, Parkinson's disease, ataxia, transient ischemic attack, cardiomyopathy, coronary artery disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, retinitis pigmentosa, diabetes, hepatitis C, and primary biliary cirrhosis. Medications have now emerged as a major cause of mitochondrial damage, which may explain many adverse effects. All classes of psychotropic drugs have been documented to damage mitochondria, as have stain medications, analgesics such as acetaminophen, and many others. While targeted nutrient therapies using antioxidants or their precursors (e. g., N-acetylcysteine) hold promise for improving mitochondrial function, there are large gaps in our knowledge. The most rational approach is to understand the mechanisms underlying mitochondrial damage for specific medications and attempt to counteract their deleterious effects with nutritional therapies. This article reviews our basic understanding of how mitochondria function and how medications damage mitochondria to create their occasionally fatal adverse effects.

The 4 "A" disorders are all becoming more frequent in children over the past 20 years, coinciding with the timing of aspirin's link to Reye's Syndrome. I do not believe this to be just a coincidence.

I know this has been long, and I've only scratched the surface of what I've learned, but I thank you if you've read this entire post.

Please use Tylenol with extreme caution.

Jen
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#9 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for all the links - wow - I have a lot to read! Great info, I haven't delved in this field yet, I'm amazed. I only read a page or two yet, I hope to get to the others when I have more time. Somehow I got to a Nestle page talking about artificial colors/flavors - and how the Smarties candies will no longer have artificial colors or flavors! I'm so impressed- never thought I'd see the day when candy companies took this move. I am going to be keeping my eye open for Nestle products from now on.

I also came across THIS page with links to all kind of interesting info about tylenol. I still have a lot of reading to do there as well. But its not looking good for tylenol, in more ways than one!

http://www.*********/drugs/paracetamol1.html

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#10 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 02:09 PM
 
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"Somehow I got to a Nestle page talking about artificial colors/flavors - and how the Smarties candies will no longer have artificial colors or flavors! I'm so impressed- never thought I'd see the day when candy companies took this move. I am going to be keeping my eye open for Nestle products from now on.">>>>>>>>>>>>>

Please keep in mind that it is only in Europe that the use of artificial dyes is being phased out. There are no plans in the U.S. to make these changes. Until consumers in the U.S. start raising hell about the deleterious effects of FD&C food colorings and other additives on children's behavior, and quit buying their products, they will continue to use what is cheapest. Natural dyes will cost a fortune to implement, and unless we as a nation wake up to what we are putting into our kids' bodies and demand action, these companies have no incentive to make changes.

Even the AAP begrudgingly admits they might have been wrong about food dyes wrt to behavior problems...

...A recent metaanalysis
of 15 trials concludes that there is “accumulating evidence
that neurobehavioral toxicity may characterize a variety of widely
distributed chemicals.” Some children may be more sensitive to
the effects of these chemicals, and the authors suggest there is a
need to better identify responders. In real life, practitioners faced
with hyperactive preschoolers have a reasonable option to offer
parents. For the child without a medical, emotional, or environmental
etiology of ADHD behaviors, a trial of a preservative-free,
food coloring–free diet is a reasonable intervention
.

Although quite complicated, this was a carefully conducted
study in which the investigators went to great lengths to eliminate
bias and to rigorously measure outcomes. The results are
hard to follow and somewhat inconsistent. For many of the
assessments there were small but statistically significant differences
of measured behaviors in children who consumed the
food additives compared with those who did not. In each case
increased hyperactive behaviors were associated with consuming
the additives. For those comparisons in which no statistically
significant differences were found, there was a trend for more
hyperactive behaviors associated with the food additive drink
in virtually every assessment. Thus, the overall findings of the
study are clear and require that even we skeptics, who have long
doubted parental claims of the effects of various foods on the
behavior of their children, admit we might have been wrong."


http://www.feingold.org/Research/PDFstudies/AAP08.pdf
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#11 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 02:47 PM
 
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Actually, I think it's much more likely that the MMR vaccine would cause a fever that would induce a metabolic decompensation in a child with an existing mitochondrial DNA mutation.

You know why you age? Because your mitochondrial function is being damaged! By tylenol? What if we avoided tylenol...would be live forever? Nope. Living damages your mitochondrial function.

Sleepless night up with a sick kid? Likely mito damage for you. The kid...he/she likely is incurring damage too. If you didn't use tylenol?? Doesn't matter. The stress on the body from illness/fever/vomitting is causing damage. The good news is that most of us have lots of healthy mitochondria. We can damage them and be just fine.

You don't induce a DNA mutation (which you are born with) with tyelonol. Mitochondrial disorder is caused by a mutation in the DNA.

If you have a DNA mutation in your mitochondria you already have a lot of non or limited functioning mitochondria. They don't function properly to bring energy to your cells. So all that living hits you harder as you lose the little function you had. Lose enough mitochondrial function in a major organ and that organ experiences distress and damage from the lack of energy. That's why mitochondrial disorder is a progressive disorder ultimately resulting in death.

You know what damaged my mito kid? Fat in his diet. Hmmmm...how do you avoid that?

There are a whole list of medicines (and natural conditions like fever, lack of sleep, vomitting, diarrhea) that inhibit mitochondrial function in some way or induce a body situation that those with mito can't handle. On the list by the way is tylenol (over-doses kill by liver damage from inhibited mito function), aspirin, aleve, all the NSAIDs. Fever, illness, any stress on the body is harmful to those with mitochondrial issues to as I said above. IRL if your child has mitochondrial disorder you are told to suppress fever as the fever itself is likely to induce decompensation.

The only meds that actually induce serious clinical mitochondrial damage to the DNA to my knowledge are some AIDS meds. Some cholesterol meds and meds related to those can deplete co-q-10 and cause mitochondrial issues related to that.

Rachelle, mommy to 8 year old boys! 

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#12 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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I just want to point out that many allergies and other reactions often mimic Autism. There is a huge debate on how to tell them appart and how to classify all this. What is really Autism?

Metal poisoning mimics Autism. Vax damage mimics Autism. Food and med reactions often mimic Autism as well. Mitochondrial disorders. Then you have those who may have had Autism from the start but the reaction to any of these triggered exagerated symptoms of the Autism they already had or made it more obvious. Thats why treating these things often helps "treat the Autism". (which means that it probably wasn't Autism to begin with - the other things are whats being treated, not the Autism)

Not starting a debate, only pointing out how opinions differ in regaurds to all this for your consideration when researching Autism. The Anti-Autism (or Autism Cure) groups want you to believe these are all the same thing and that treating these or preventing these will somehow prevent or cure Autism. Apples and Oranges.

Mom to Joscelyne 14, Andrew 12, and Mackenzie 10 and wife to Nate.
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#13 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 03:43 PM
 
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PS: excessive food dyes exaggerate my son's Autistic behaviors, but I don't blame them for causing it. The exaggeration of his behaviors are a direct reaction to a food allergy/sensitivity. We treat the sensitivity, but the Autism remains.

Mom to Joscelyne 14, Andrew 12, and Mackenzie 10 and wife to Nate.
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#14 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Well, if a child has an autism diagnosis and biomedical treatment can change things so the child no longer has an autism diagnosis, is that a bad thing?
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#15 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 05:33 PM
 
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Well, if a child has an autism diagnosis and biomedical treatment can change things so the child no longer has an autism diagnosis, is that a bad thing?
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#16 of 31 Old 04-05-2009, 07:16 PM
 
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Please remain on topic regarding the vaccine issue.
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#17 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 10:33 AM
 
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You know what damaged my mito kid? Fat in his diet. Hmmmm...how do you avoid that?
How did you deduce this to be so? Ancient humans have been consuming animal fat for hundreds of thousands of years, long before they consumed any of the garbage in the modern diet.
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#18 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 01:18 PM
 
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I think we need to distinguish between mito disorder and mito dysfunction. Not the same.
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#19 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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How did you deduce this to be so? Ancient humans have been consuming animal fat for hundreds of thousands of years, long before they consumed any of the garbage in the modern diet.
Yes. Which works just fine if you don't have a metabolic condition that causes you to not be able to metabolize fat. How do I know? Because my son had a large build up of fatty acid by-products (the geneticist called them toxic metabolites) in his blood at 3.5. He had extremely low carnitine levels. His skin biopsy then showed his body can't metabolize fat. Other metabolic conditions affect other types of foods--proteins or certain carbs or other compenents of foods. We can eat those just find if we don't have the metabolic condition that affects that part of food. These are things like PKU that the newborn screenings look for. Metabolic conditions. Mitochondrial Disorder. Fatty Acid Disorders. Etc.

Mito is about vaccines in the context of this thread and the idea that tylenol and MMR causes autism. Vaccines can be dangerous for kids like mine (our geneticist asked about MMR and said good when I told him Andrew wasn't vaccinated). The point though is that you can't avoid damaging a kid like mine. Eating damages him, fevers damage him, living damages him.

Just like you wouldn't advocate the entire population avoid fat because they might be the 1 in 1000 that can't metabolize it you can't advocate that the entire population avoid tylenol with an MMR vax because that is the cause of autism. I doubt it is even a cause honestly for even a tiny percent and when you pull mitochondrial in there as if it is relevant to this tylenol/vax issue I felt I should speak. If a mito kid is getting a vax I think they would actually be safer with something to suppress fever.

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I think we need to distinguish between mito disorder and mito dysfunction. Not the same.
What's the distinction in your mind? Do you have a reference? I've heard it argued that mito disorder is when it is the primary condition. Mito dysfunction when it is secondary to another (chromosome or metabolic) disorder. No real distinction for the sake of this discussion or in life. Tylenol and MMR aren't going to cause autism in a healthy child. I don't personally think they will cause it in a mito child. But the vast majority of mito kids are autistic whether vaxed or not. For those parents/kids autism is not the main problem and issue generally. I'm way more concerned my kid is going to suffer and die young.

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#20 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 02:01 PM
 
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I doubt it is even a cause honestly for even a tiny percent and when you pull mitochondrial in there as if it is relevant to this tylenol/vax issue I felt I should speak. If a mito kid is getting a vax I think they would actually be safer with something to suppress fever. >>>>>>>>>>

Here is an article that I found awhile back that may help explain how Tylenol could possibly be associated with autism/mitochondrial disease. Keep in mind the glutathione depleting properties of Tylenol...

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-...ase-2009-02-11

Researchers may have discovered a new way to monitor mitochondrial diseases, a spectrum of disorders caused by genetic errors in mitochondria, the fuel-burning factories within cells that produce energy necessary for life. A new study reveals that people with these diseases may be deficient in glutathione, a toxin-fighting molecule made by the body that helps repair damage wrought by wayward mitochondria.

"We found very clearly that the glutathione levels were low in our mitochondrial disease patients," says Gregory Enns, a pediatrician and geneticist at Stanford University in Palo Alto, Calif. and coauthor of the study published this week in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. By measuring blood levels of glutathione, researchers may be able to assess the severity of a patient's disease and gauge how well therapies are working, Enns notes.

Mitochondrial diseases stem from gene defects in the cells' mitochondria, which convert energy from food into energy the body can use. These genetic errors lead to the production of dysfunctional proteins that spew toxins into the cells. "It's a little bit like a car engine; if it doesn't work well, it produces smoke," Enns says. In mitochondrial diseases, that "smoke" consists of free radicals—unstable molecules such as hydrogen peroxide that damage the cell's DNA, proteins, and lipids (fats), preventing them from functioning properly and causing them to die prematurely.

Scientists have identified over three dozen types of mitochondrial diseases, and the symptoms vary widely depending on which organ or organs, such as the heart, brain and liver, are affected. Newborns with the diseases can suffer seizures and lethal organ failure in the first few days of life, while other patients manage to make it into their 40s and even 50s before experiencing more benign symptoms such as weakness and inability to do physical activity. The severity of these disorders vary immensely, making it difficult to generalize how many years are knocked off the average patient's lifespan, Enns notes. Among the most famous cases of mitochondrial disease: nine-year-old Hannah Poling, whose mitochondrial disorder caused autism-like symptoms that were exacerbated by routine childhood vaccinations.

Mitochondrial diseases affect about one in every 8,500 adults in the U.S. (0.1 percent of the population), and doctors often treat them with cocktails of antioxidants including vitamin C and vitamin E that are believed to combat free radical damage caused by the disease, according to Enns. One key problem, he notes, is that doctors don't really understand how these antioxidants work -- or how effective they are in staving off symptoms in the long run.

In their study, Enns and his colleagues compared blood samples taken from 20 patients with mitochondrial disease ages two to 36 with those of 20 healthy patients ages 25 to 47. Levels of glutathione, a molecule the body makes to combat free radical damage, in the white blood cells of the diseased patients were 20 to 25 percent lower than those in the healthy crew, indicating that the body's ability to fight free radical damage was compromised, according to first author Kondala Atkuri, a biochemist at Stanford.

This study suggests that glutathione blood levels might serve as a good indicator of how large a toll these diseases are taking on the body, which could come in handy in drug trials, Enns says. "Before we can give drugs to patients in a clinical trial," he says, "we need to establish the biomarkers [such as glutathione] to see if treatments are working."

I've also learned that autism rates are much higher in those with Down Syndrome. Possibly because they are already deficient in glutathione due to their genetic makeup.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.gotdownsyndrome.net/gluta...aminophen.html

Jen
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#21 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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I already know that study about glutathione. You're still talking about a tiny percent of people who already have mitochondrial disorder (and are likely already autistic...my son never had MMR or tylenol as a matter of fact). It is a big leap to apply that information to those without the condition in the first place.

I tell you surely that a fever will damage a mito kid too. You can find information about kids who died after the flu. But that doesn't mean the average parent needs to worry that a fever will cause autism in their child. Similarly, the average parent doesn't need to worry about tylenol causing autism either. Or tylenol/MMR.

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#22 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 06:04 PM
 
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I already know that study about glutathione. You're still talking about a tiny percent of people who already have mitochondrial disorder (and are likely already autistic...my son never had MMR or tylenol as a matter of fact). It is a big leap to apply that information to those without the condition in the first place.

.
It's not a big leap at all to consider that there are other reasons besides mitochondrial disorder for someone to have low glutathione levels, and having that be a possible trigger for conditions like autism.

Take a child who is just getting over an illness, or about to come down with one (decreased glutathione), who eats the standard american diet (decreased glutathione), is under stress from being in daycare (decreased glutathione), maybe someone in the family smokes and the child is exposed to second hand smoke (decreased glutathione) and is given Tylenol before and after having been vaccinated (decreased glutathione x 2).

Hmmm. The above is a description of THOUSANDS of little ones, not a tiny percentage. And we haven't even started the discussion about genetic predisposition.
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#23 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 06:20 PM
 
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The reason I say it is a leap to apply this to a large percent of the population:
This was a small (20 affected individual) study to find a 20 to 25% reduction compared to unaffected controls. By the way those unaffected controls would have stress and standard american diet and etc. So comparable to your infants without mito. But anyway this showed reduced levels in those people. The reduction (they hypothesize) depended on severity of disease. Those with lower levels had higher body stress using up their stores. Similarly, they might have lower levels of co-q-10 as their body uses that at an abnormally high rate.

The Poling referred to had autism before that vaccination. She regressed. We have no idea if she had tylenol so it's really irrelevant. She could have regressed due to fever too. Other kids regress after the flu or surgery or sleeping through the night. Mine regressed around age two without vaxes. He did have a series of ear infections (holistically treated with chiro/removing dairy and I didn't suppress fever). I honestly don't know many mito patients who regress with vaxes. Most are vaccinated because the illness itself would be devastating. But it's possible as any stress on the body can cause regression. Tylenol would be a drop in the bucket in my opinion. And it's not going to push a healthy child over the edge. That's my point. I'm tired of trying to make it.

There aren't thousands of kids with regressive autism after vaccines. There just aren't.

Avoid tylenol. Just don't count on that to prevent autism.

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#24 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 07:01 PM
 
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Tylenol would be a drop in the bucket in my opinion. And it's not going to push a healthy child over the edge. That's my point. I'm tired of trying to make it.
It matters on what you consider "healthy" to be. In my above example, there are many many children that have every single one of those things going on in their lives, and I bet that most of those parents think that their child is "healthy".

I respectfully disagree that Tylenol is a drop in the bucket.

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There aren't thousands of kids with regressive autism after vaccines. There just aren't.
We agree. Sort of. More like tens of thousands.

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Avoid tylenol. Just don't count on that to prevent autism.
Of course. Autism is very complicated and multifactorial, and anyone who claims that they have that ONE thing that will "prevent" it, whether it's vaccines, or Tylenol, is not seeing the big picture.
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#25 of 31 Old 04-06-2009, 11:36 PM
 
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"The Poling referred to had autism before that vaccination. "

No she didn't. Furthermore, they aren't even acknowledging that she does in fact, have autism. They're calling it a mitochondrial disorder with "autism-like symptoms." It would be nice to read the details of that case, but from what I understand, the records are sealed. She did seem to have quite a few ear infections in her first year of life, and it's not unreasonable to assume that Tylenol might have been used to control fever and pain.
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#26 of 31 Old 04-12-2009, 01:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi, I posted a thread once about tylenol given before/after vaccinations, but I'm not sure if mine is the one you're thinking of.

I didn't have a study, but I had stumbled upon an explanation of sodium benzoate, a preservative used in tylenol. Here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_benzoate

"...Professor Peter Piper of the University of Sheffield claims that sodium benzoate by itself can damage and inactivate vital parts of DNA in a cell's mitochondria. Mitochondria consume oxygen to generate ATP, the body's energy currency. If they are damaged due to disease, the cell malfunctions and may enter apoptosis. There are many illnesses now tied to DNA damage, including Parkinson's and other neurodegenerative diseases, but above all, the aging process in general.[9][10][11][12][13]"


I then thought immediately about Hannah Poling, the little girl who was developed autism from vaccines, so says the federal government. However, it is believed that she had an "underlying mitochondrial disorder" which pre-disposed her to developing autism from the shots. (If you google Hannah Poling and mitochodrial disorder, you'll come up with tons of stuff.)

So I wonder if by giving tylenol before vaccines, we are interfering with our children's mitochodrial function, thus predisposing them to autism.


Oh you wouldn't believe this but guess what. I just found out the liquid vitamins my son has been on (since 2 months old I Think... he is 18 months now) has SODIUM BENZOATE in it! yep - I guss its one of the preservatives. the vitamins were prescribed only because he was breastfed, and it was for vitamin D (although I noticed it also had a lot of B vitamins in it - no iron) . When I read that, I remembered our discussion. If this preservative really IS causing problems in some kids, then tylenol is probably the tip of the iceberg or maybe not as big of a problem as thought, considering some kids are getting a dose every day (in their vitamins!) so maybe the bigger picture is the vitamins or a source bigger than tylenol.

Someone from this forum (I can't remember who) was kind enough to want to send me the .pdf of a study (maybe the one I was looking for) and asked for my email address... I thought I replied but haven't received it yet. So if you are out there, please resend it, I haven't yet got it and afraid it might have went to spam or something. Or if anyone knows more links about the tylenol / autism connection. I want to learn not only for myself, but for a relative. This is in reference to the MMR and I wanted to send them the link if I had a good one.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#27 of 31 Old 04-13-2009, 09:40 PM
 
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Oh you wouldn't believe this but guess what. I just found out the liquid vitamins my son has been on (since 2 months old I Think... he is 18 months now) has SODIUM BENZOATE in it! yep - I guss its one of the preservatives. the vitamins were prescribed only because he was breastfed, and it was for vitamin D (although I noticed it also had a lot of B vitamins in it - no iron) . When I read that, I remembered our discussion. If this preservative really IS causing problems in some kids, then tylenol is probably the tip of the iceberg or maybe not as big of a problem as thought, considering some kids are getting a dose every day (in their vitamins!) so maybe the bigger picture is the vitamins or a source bigger than tylenol.>>>>>>>>>>

Sodium benzoate is awful stuff, no doubt. Mix it with Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and you get BENZENE, a known carcinogen.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/benzdata.html

It really pays to read those labels, and be educated about what goes into your kids' bodies, because the FDA sure ain't looking out for them.
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#28 of 31 Old 04-14-2009, 04:43 PM
 
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Maybe something to look into would be how long Tylenol has been used reguarly for infants/children for fever reducing. Has it been on the rise the past 30 yrs like Autism has? Also, perhaps by taking Tylenol and not allowing the body to reduce its fever naturally may play a role in it!
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#29 of 31 Old 04-14-2009, 05:52 PM
 
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Someone from this forum (I can't remember who) was kind enough to want to send me the .pdf of a study (maybe the one I was looking for) and asked for my email address... I thought I replied but haven't received it yet. So if you are out there, please resend it, I haven't yet got it and afraid it might have went to spam or something. Or if anyone knows more links about the tylenol / autism connection. I want to learn not only for myself, but for a relative. This is in reference to the MMR and I wanted to send them the link if I had a good one.
I was me, and I just sent you the full text PDF. Sorry it took me so long to respond. (I try to do Mothering at home, but the article was on my work computer.)

DS, 10/07. Allergies: peanut, egg, wheat. We've added dairy back in. And taken it back out again. It causes sandpaper skin with itchy patches and thrashing during sleep. Due w/ #2 late April, 2012.

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#30 of 31 Old 04-15-2009, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was me, and I just sent you the full text PDF. Sorry it took me so long to respond. (I try to do Mothering at home, but the article was on my work computer.)
THANK YOU !!! I so appreciate it!! I am printing it out, (reading it now) and saving a copy too.

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