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#1 of 21 Old 01-08-2004, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was thinking about the fact that it seems like a fairly common theme I read from parents whose babies have had vax reactions is that they seem to stop growing around 6 months. (or was it more like 4 months?)

Why is this?

Does anyone know which vax likely does this and what is it doing?

This is scary to me!
I sometimes hear from moms who say their dr is telling them to fatten them up, but I always wonder, WHAT HAPPENED? They aren't supposed to suddenly fall off growth charts just because they learn to crawl!

Anybody have a guess or answer for me? It would be very much appreciated!
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#2 of 21 Old 01-08-2004, 02:06 PM
 
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Could be that an underlying problem causes both the FTT & the vax reaction as opposed to the vax causing the FTT.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=107291
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#3 of 21 Old 01-08-2004, 08:19 PM
 
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I think that a number of FTT cases, and it may be only a small number of FTT cases, are caused by disruption of the normal flora of the gastro intestinal tract by live virus vaccines (especially measles). There seems to be a lot of research out there to support the allegation.
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#4 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 12:56 AM
 
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Daria went through this, she had a reaction after her last set of shots and she stopped growing for awhile. She is finally growing again now about 5 months later. I never thought about it being from the vax, she always grew slow and I assumed it was her just slowing down but now that I have gone back and looked through her baby book she never went 5 months without growing at all and she actually lost a few oz. for a short time. I also thought it had to do with her milk allergy but now I think it was her shots. We aren't sure which one she reacted to, she had the mmr, ipv and dtap that day.
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#5 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 02:02 AM
 
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Oh, I think we have the same take - you just expounded on it. Anything that alters normal flora is going to alter uptake of nutrients from the GI tract.
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#6 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 02:07 AM
 
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That really really really bothers me that a doctor would give MMR, IPV and DTaP on the same day.
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#7 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 11:41 AM
 
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Candide it bothers me too, but I didn't know better at the time .

I feel horrible especially now after I have done the research into the vax and that the vax insert the docs get (not that stupid card they give us) says MMR was never meant to be given with other vax, that is should be given a month before or after others since it is live. But a tiny paragraph underneath says "if the patient is not expected to return you can give with other shots" um okay that makes a who buttload of sense doesn't it??? Basically they give them all at once to save money now that I realize that I"m not letting my kids get anymore, I don't want doctors who don't give a sh*t making profits off my babies.
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#8 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 06:32 PM
 
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Dup post
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#9 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by annalily
I was thinking about the fact that it seems like a fairly common theme I read from parents whose babies have had vax reactions is that they seem to stop growing around 6 months. (or was it more like 4 months?)

Why is this?

Does anyone know which vax likely does this and what is it doing?

This is scary to me!
I sometimes hear from moms who say their dr is telling them to fatten them up, but I always wonder, WHAT HAPPENED? They aren't supposed to suddenly fall off growth charts just because they learn to crawl!

Anybody have a guess or answer for me? It would be very much appreciated!
I don't have a guess or an answer. All I know is that my son was gaining 1.5 -2 pounds per month until his 6 month round of shots that he received at the age of 7.5 months. That round included 3rd DPTH and 1st Hep B. Does this mean that the Hep B was the culprit? I don't know. Personally, I think the mercury had something to do with it. Because not only did he stop growing/eating, he began to sweat beneath his head as he slept, (the way the body rids itself of toxins), he began to have respiratory problems, all beginning within a day or two after the vaccines. In the sixth month following the vaccines, he gained 1 pound, up to that point, he hadn't gained a thing. It took him another 5 months to gain one more pound. By the age of 3 yrs, he finally hit 20 pounds. He will be 5 yrs old next month and finally hit a growth spurt, he's now a whopping 26 pounds. I think failure to thrive, or even just failure to grow is much more common than we are are aware of, and I doubt it's being linked to the vaccines very often, if ever.

I think, (am not positive) that Dr Kalokerinos wrote about a 3rd world group of children he vaccinated....he said he came back about a year later, and one of the children hadn't grown a bit. He mentioned that failure to grow and also commented that it may be an undetected vaccine reaction. I had save the paper to the word doc but must have lost it on one of my crashes.

Christine
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#10 of 21 Old 01-09-2004, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, everyone.

Christine, your story was one I was thinking of and part of why I asked the question.
I said "failure to thrive," but I really just meant something more like what you described. Not necessarily an official diagnosis of FTT, just a major change like you described in your son. When they seem to just stop growing.

Candide, I think many doctors give them all together. And the chicken pox too.
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#11 of 21 Old 01-10-2004, 04:09 AM
 
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My dd got 1 hep B at two weeks, DTaP and IPV at 2 months. She had a pretty darn good reaction and her growing slowed by 6 months. She's now 2 1/2 and is quite small. 33 inches tall and 21.5 pounds. When I look at her growth chart I can plainly see where she started to fail. That's also when I believe the toxins were built up in her body so much, her body couldn't take it. Her bio-rythms and ability to eat, especially chew has been really affected. My ped diagnosed failure to thrive. I've hounded her about the vax reactions and injury and finally at the 2 yr appt, we got an answer from her. I was flabbergasted. She said that it just didn't make sense that vaccines could affect growth. It just doesn't happen. She told me that my breastfeeding was creating the problem, and that if I weaned, my daughter would be hungry enough to eat. What a crock. I'd like to know the definative answer on the FTT and the vax reactions.
One other thing that skews the view, is that there is no growth chart in use for babies that are exclusively breastfed and for toddlers that nurse and eat good organic diets full of veggies not french fries and hamburgers. Everything is based on obese formula fed children in a fast food society. Another interesting thing is that the average weight on the current growth chart is 4 1/2 pounds heavier than in was mid 1900s. When I showed the ped the WHO chart of breastfed girls through 12 months, I was dismissed and told that it's the clinics position to use the current CDC chart, etc.

The probiotic info was interesting, and we've been using probiotics for months, drink raw goats milk, have kefir smoothies, eat raw yogurts etc, without any big weight gains, 1.5 pounds in the last 5 months.

Wife to my wonderful Pablo, mum to Roo 8/10/01, Vin 1/10/07, Bug 6/3/07, Butterbean 12/12/09
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#12 of 21 Old 01-10-2004, 04:50 AM
 
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Quote:
That really really really bothers me that a doctor would give MMR, IPV and DTaP on the same day.
As already said, some are adding cxpox to this. I've even heard of some, this year, giving the first flu dose, too.
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#13 of 21 Old 01-10-2004, 12:24 PM
 
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Mamav (Victoria),

Ask your doc what the

Mouse Weight Gain Test is and what it is used for.

RE: "She told me that my breastfeeding was creating the problem, and that if I weaned, my daughter would be hungry enough to eat. What a crock."

Our ped was acting along the same lines. My son absoultely REFUSED to eat after those shots. He had only been on solids for about 2 weeks prior to that appt, and he was eating EVERYTHING offered, liking most of it. After the shots, he wouldn't take a thing, even the things he seemed to particularly enjoy.

Our doc told me to cut out the morning feeding to prompt him to eat. Now Noah is my fourth child, and I breastfed my other 3, so I knew darn well that the breastfeeding wasn't a part of the puzzle. I never did cut out the morning feeding, because I didn't have anything that would offer better nutrition than my milk. If he wasn't going to eat, then my milk is what he needed most. Even the WHO recommends nursing for at least 2 years in the malnourished. It was my milk that that got my child to his 2 yr birthday.

I seriously think failure to grow is much more common than we realize, they even have a FTT board at ivillage. What isn't common, is the connection to the vaccines, it hasn't been made, but if more parents would report the failure to grow to VAERS when it's so obvious on the medical records that it began RIGHT after a round of vaccines, the connection will have to be admitted.

My son's eating has slowly but steadily improved over the years, it's been a long slow process.

My fifth child is now 16 months, vaccine free, he nurses AND eats and has no feeding/growth problems at all, in fact wears the same size shorts as my almost 5 yr old! My MIL even made the comment (she accused me of intentionally starving my slow to grow son) that I must be eating better .... due to the large size of my youngest . Ugh. I wanted to tell her I was eating much worse, and in fact, drinking as well, but instead, I just told her it makes a big difference when you don't shoot them full of poison.

I believe your doc made the following comment,

"She said that it just didn't make sense that vaccines could affect growth. It just doesn't happen."

Because she has no clue what happened. No, it doesn't make sense that vaccines can or do cause failure to grow, but I have read that this is something they look for when the vaccines (or components of) are being tested in mice.

Maybe you should print the following and show it to your doc,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Increased levels of active pertussis toxin may aid a pertussis vaccine to pass the mouse body weight gain test.

"Pertussis toxin, when inoculated with endotoxin, showed a marked effect of helping mice to recover quickly from the endotoxin-induced initial weight loss to the level of those receiving only pertussis toxin."

And the following,

The toxicities of vaccines have been studied by the mouse weight gain test. This test depends on the observation that intraperitoneal injection of vaccine into young mice leads to a weight loss within hours, followed by total recovery of weight within the next 7 days (Cameron, 1988). The causes of toxicity (manifested as poor weight gain) in the test are not well understood; the test is not very sensitive to endotoxin (Cameron, 1977). Results of the test have been shown to vary with the adjuvant or absorbent used with the vaccine, mouse strain, diet, size of cage, ambient temperature, and duration of exposure to light (Cameron, 1988). These vagaries further illustrate the difficulty of generalizing to humans the results obtained from studies in animals.

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309044995/html/335.html

Not well understood. Now that comment always gives me a sick fuzzy feeling evertime I read it in regards to vaccines, ie: the thimerosal, it's effects in infants/children not well understood.
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#14 of 21 Old 01-10-2004, 01:00 PM
 
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Wow I didn't realize how bad it effected some of your kids. Daria just stopped growing for six months and I was complaining. s Mamas and for your little ones too. Daria will be 2 next month and she is 22lbs and 31inches. The hardest one for her was to hit 20lbs it seemed she would never hit that mark, after that it seemed she sped up abit in growth.

I just rechecked her immunization book, says she got mmr with prevnar not the ipv I was told, also varivax (cp) Prevnar always made her grumpy, I shouldn't have let them give her the last dose,especially with the mmr. Since prevnar always made her fussy etc, I wonder if that isn't what made the mmr reaction worse, since they were given together. Why the heck did they tell me they gave her different shots than what the book says?? Urgh I hate the clinic here.
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#15 of 21 Old 01-10-2004, 06:10 PM
 
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Hi, I'm new to the vax board, but have been lurking for info on vaxes as I am about to have another baby.

I too wonder if there might be a connection between the vaxes and FTT. My DS was never a big baby 6 lbs. 7oz. at birth (10th percentile) but continued to stay at that percentile through his 2 month and 4 month weight checks. At his 6 month check he dropped down to the 5th percentile. I had also started solids by this time. They told me he was probably hungry if he was nursing so much: Anyway at his 9 month check he dropped off of the chart. He has been on his own little curve way below the 5th percentile ever since. He does gain, but is very skinny. He has been tested for celiac disease and that came back negative. He nursed until a month past his second birthday. He is now 2 1/2 and weighs around 22 or 23 pounds. He has had all of his shots, which I know wonder if he hadn't had them would he have grown better?

My DD is a petite child (5th percentile in both height and weight) but as a baby she was in the 25-50th percentiles for weight and had that cute baby fat. The difference in their vax schedules is that prevnar was not given to my DD until she was a toddler and she had only 2 doses. My DS was given whatever is recommended now. Could the prevnar be the culprit? How are we to know when so many shots are given at one time? This really is aggravating

I am seriously considering not vaxing this new baby or if anything delaying some until he is older. Thanks to all for the info on this board
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#16 of 21 Old 01-11-2004, 01:34 AM
 
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Karry, prevnar could be it.

http://www.wyeth.com/content/ShowLabeling.asp?id=134

that is the product info sheet, unless I am really reading wrong it says something about diptheria protein in the first sentence. It's a PDF so you need adobe reader.

more prevnar links
http://www.*********/v/prevnar.htm

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/NEW00716.html
Quote:
It is manufactured by attaching the polysaccharides (purified surface components of the different strains) to a genetically modified nontoxic form of the diphtheria toxin protein called CRM197.
Says it there too so I guess I wasn't reading wrong. I was never asked if my child had a diptheria shot reaction, I think they should ask before giving prevnar if it's made from the protein!

I wondered why dtap and prevnar both made her leg red, hot and made her grumpy and fidgety. grrr

And I can't find the link now but if I do I will edit and post it tomorrow, but I read a link last night that said something about 29 kids died in just the prelicensure trials of prevnar from seizures and sids. And there have been some deaths after it was licensed to seizures. .


Some insurance companies don't even cover it so that must say something.
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#17 of 21 Old 01-11-2004, 09:27 PM
 
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Thnks for the selenium info. I checked our multivites and they do contain minerals, but I don't know if the amounts are adequate, probably not. I liked the mouse test info too and will bring these things up the next time we go in. I strive to expand the mind of my ped. Hope it works and that I'm not banging my head against the wall.

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#18 of 21 Old 01-11-2004, 09:45 PM
 
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This is from the testimony of the MN Natural Health Coalition at a vaccine hearing in front of an administrative law judge trying to decide whtether or not to mandate PRevnar. As part creator of this testimony, I can attest we worked hard to stop this. anyway, here is some of our findings. If you're interested in the whole report, PM me:

"In the main prelicensure study involving 34,000 children, 17, 000 infants were given four doses of Prevnar and the "control group" was given another experiemantal vaccine. Obvious breach of scientific method as there was NO true control group. The group of children was handpicked with no previous history of seizures, known immunodeficiency or any other known serious chronic or acute health problems. That doesn't follow the majority of today's kids either...
Of the 17000 kids receiving prevnar:
in the first 72 hours, 162 ended up in the ER, one suddenly went into congestive heart failure, Three children suffered from hypotonic/hyporesponsive episodes, becoming totally limp and unresponisive. 24 infants required hospitalization, and Additional 40 were seen in their physician's offices for astham, wheezing or breathholding and 8 infants had seizures. Well over 1% of theise previously healthy children were seriously ill within 72 hours.
Additionally, there were 12 deaths in infants receiving Prevnar. THe study reported that there were 5 SIDS deaths and the other 7 were from clear alternative causes. We called Wyeth and asked for the causes of death and the dates of onset of illness relative to the date of the vaccine, however, Wyeth will not give us any information as it is proprietary.

Authors of the study concluded"safety monitoring in this chort of 37,000 children did not reveal any severe adverse events related to vaccination." Th authors continued to conclude that both experimental vaccines were safe."


The burden of proof is the responsibility of the pharmaceutical companies when it comes to vaccine safety. The studies must be science based. Obviously, the pharmaceutical companies do not shoulder that burden and our kids are injured, damaged and dead because of it. JMO. Unfortunately, the Governor signed the propsed mandate into law and now both Chxpx and Prevnar are mandated in the Minnesota. We did manage to have Hep B thrown out. So there was a small victory. We do have consientious objection here, so we are protected with that.

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#19 of 21 Old 01-12-2004, 03:41 AM
 
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What is considered adequate selenium?
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#20 of 21 Old 01-12-2004, 12:07 PM
 
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That prevnar stuff just makes me want to :Puke

BTW when I was reading stuff the same people responsible for bringing prevnar to the market helped get rotashield licensed and we all know what went wrong there.

Smilemomma,
here is a link on recoommended daily allowance for adults:
http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/selen.html#rda

If you scroll down there is also a chart showing foods that have selenium in them and how much is too much etc.

I couldn't find a link on rda for kids. Hiliary might know that one though .
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#21 of 21 Old 01-12-2004, 08:53 PM
 
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Thanks, Jackie! That's a good place to start, at least. I'm not a big fan of the standard RDA list, though. I feel like it's much too conservative. Don't they have like 60 mg as the RDA for Vitamin C?

Thanks again, I will check my multi and see what it's got.

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