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#1 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just wanted to pass along some info regarding vaccines. Be aware that your pediatrician
could be getting reimbursements and/or incentives from pharmaceutical companies for every
vaccine (or Rx) they give their patient. This could cloud their judgment and put coercive pressure
on parents to vaccinate. I think most peds have their "favorite" vaccines to give.
So you can ask your doctor to disclose any reimbursements and/or incentives beyond what the insurance company
pays for.

This is a good way to take some control of your family's healthcare and understand where your doctor is coming from too.

Another little tidbit of information. Peds in private practice get 50% of their income from vaccinations. Some of them
also get a bonus from the CDC when their practice "exceeds expectations" on administering childhood vaccines.

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#2 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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Ugh. Sickening. Do you have any sources so I can show my in laws?
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#3 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 03:24 PM
 
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Is it the same with family practice, or just pediatricians?

It's interesting that you post this because my Endocrinoligist's office was bending over backwards during flu vax season to get my daughter (not their patient by any stretch of the imagination) vaccinated for the flu during a routine checkup of mine she just happened to be there for. It's likely all doctors, then, isn't it?
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#4 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 03:43 PM
 
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It's likely all doctors, then, isn't it?
If they are pushing a product this hard, you can be sure they are benefiting from their efforts.

When my kids were little there were very few peds. Mostly family docs saw kids. Since the CDC extended the vax schedule by so many vaccines, pediatrics has become a very lucrative field. The number of doctors going into ped. has increased enormoulsy in the last 30 years.
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#5 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 03:50 PM
 
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If they are pushing a product this hard, you can be sure they are benefiting from their efforts.

When my kids were little there were very few peds. Mostly family docs saw kids. Since the CDC extended the vax schedule by so many vaccines, pediatrics has become a very lucrative field. The number of doctors going into ped. has increased enormoulsy in the last 30 years.
Then you have those who argue that doctors don't make any money off of vaccination.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#6 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 03:54 PM
 
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Then you have those who argue that doctors don't make any money off of vaccination.
Maybe so, but this generation of kids is sicker than all the previous generations. Vaccines are good for something....
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#7 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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I worked for a pediatricians office in the mid 90's and the pharma reps would come by every Friday and bring bagels or supply lunch. I gained 20lbs because they brought so much good food. OMG.

It was when Claritin was first put out, and within one week, every child that walked into that practice was on it. I even mentioned it, and at the time I didnt know anything about vaxes, etc.

And it was a crap product. Over half the people that switched over came back to go back to their old medicines. Those poor kids. And what a hassle for the parents. I guess that is why you need to stand firm.

And I did try the claritin because they had a whole cabinet of free drugs they supplied to the workers. I did voice my opinion about how it didnt work for me, that is when the nurses told me about everyone coming back.
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#8 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamakah View Post
Ugh. Sickening. Do you have any sources so I can show my in laws?
Here are some things you can show.

http://www.consumersinternational.or...p?NodeID=96076

Drugs, Doctors and Dinners: http://www.marketingoverdose.org/doc...harma_2007.pdf

New Vermont Law : http://aahf.nonprofitsoapbox.com/ind...&id=789&Itemid

This is from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons. http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/severyn.html

And in my latest favorite book. Chickenpox Vaccine : An epidemic of disease and corruption.

And here is a whole pile to read and print off. http://www.*********/vaccine/quotes15.html

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#9 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 09:33 PM
 
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OK- speaking as a doctor....

1. We do not get kickbacks from pharma companies for prescribing, or giving vaccinations. It is illegal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

2. I lose money on vaccinations. The cost of buying, storing, and administering is more than what I make giving them.

3. If you think pediatrics is a lucrative field, you're sadly mistaken. It is the lowest-paying medical specialty.

I'm sure no one here will believe me. But it's true.
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#10 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by k9sarchik View Post
Just wanted to pass along some info regarding vaccines. Be aware that your pediatrician
could be getting reimbursements and/or incentives from pharmaceutical companies for every
vaccine (or Rx) they give their patient. This could cloud their judgment and put coercive pressure
on parents to vaccinate. I think most peds have their "favorite" vaccines to give.
So you can ask your doctor to disclose any reimbursements and/or incentives beyond what the insurance company
pays for.

This is a good way to take some control of your family's healthcare and understand where your doctor is coming from too.

Another little tidbit of information. Peds in private practice get 50% of their income from vaccinations. Some of them
also get a bonus from the CDC when their practice "exceeds expectations" on administering childhood vaccines
.
How do you know this? Any proof you can share?
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#11 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 09:53 PM
 
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Also, quoting ********* and JPANDS as your sources- not so impressive.
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#12 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:01 PM
 
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*oops, messed up quote. Trying again
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#13 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:02 PM
 
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I had heard this before and I asked my ped and he just laughed. No, he doesn't get 50% of his income from vaccines. He doesn't have any favorite vaccines, and he really doesn't care that I selective/delay vax. I've had all my friends asks their peds, and none of them have every recieved any extra money for vaccines. This is in several different states, and both private and group practices. I guess it could happen, but I haven't found it to be that common.

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#14 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post
OK- speaking as a doctor....

1. We do not get kickbacks from pharma companies for prescribing, or giving vaccinations. It is illegal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

2. I lose money on vaccinations. The cost of buying, storing, and administering is more than what I make giving them.

3. If you think pediatrics is a lucrative field, you're sadly mistaken. It is the lowest-paying medical specialty.

I'm sure no one here will believe me. But it's true.


Thank you. Even in my crunchy local group, people have acknowledged your points 1 and 2. I absolutely believe in choice when it comes to vax (we do very selective and very delayed) but I am not down with false info being shared and we had a big convo about it....so it's cool to be anti-vax, but let's be accurate.
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#15 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:34 PM
 
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Maybe so, but this generation of kids is sicker than all the previous generations. Vaccines are good for something....
Any evidence to back that claim up? I've been doing a lot of historical and anthropological reading lately, and that is the exact reverse of everything I've been reading about the history of child mortality.

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#16 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 2cutiekitties View Post
I worked for a pediatricians office in the mid 90's and the pharma reps would come by every Friday and bring bagels or supply lunch. I gained 20lbs because they brought so much good food. OMG.
By law, reps are no longer allowed to give any gifts to doctors/medical offices--even those pens and sticky note pads. This is as of January, I believe.

I got this information from a woman I know who works for a pharmaceutical company.

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#17 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:44 PM
 
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I lose money on vaccinations. The cost of buying, storing, and administering is more than what I make giving them.
The doctor we used to go to didn't even offer vaccines in his office. He said he couldn't make money off them and his patients could get them cheaper anyway down the road at the low cost clinic.

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#18 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 10:45 PM
 
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Our local news channel did a story on this.

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/46417972.html

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#19 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:13 PM
 
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OK- speaking as a doctor....

1. We do not get kickbacks from pharma companies for prescribing, or giving vaccinations. It is illegal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

2. I lose money on vaccinations. The cost of buying, storing, and administering is more than what I make giving them.

3. If you think pediatrics is a lucrative field, you're sadly mistaken. It is the lowest-paying medical specialty.

I'm sure no one here will believe me. But it's true.
I agree with all of this, and we don't vaccinate.
Every.single.doctor I have ever met has all said the same thing, it's much cheaper if they didn't offer vaccines.
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#20 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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Thanks, Amy!

I knew I read this somewhere. So drs. DO receive gifts from the pharma. Ranging from $100 to $127,000.

Seriously, if doctors lose money on vaccines, why do they put up such a fight when someone doesn't want to vaccinate? They will be making more money per visit for a non-vax patient then the vax patient.
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#21 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:27 PM
 
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Here is a good article from the New York Times about how doctors don't profit from vaccines.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/bu...24vaccine.html
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#22 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:39 PM
 
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By law, reps are no longer allowed to give any gifts to doctors/medical offices--even those pens and sticky note pads. This is as of January, I believe.

I got this information from a woman I know who works for a pharmaceutical company.
There must be some major loopholes in this. One of our best friends is a cardiologist in a specialized field within cardiology (can't remember what). He was here after the beginning of the year, and he had 2 guys with him that we kept jokingly calling his "entourage". A manufacturer of some heart thing sent them with him to a convention he was attending in our hometown. They bought him every meal, every drink, and a limo to take him everywhere they went. They even paid for my dh's meals and drinks when they went out.

Our friend was telling us that this is RAMPANT in the medical industry. One of the guys in the entourage was telling us that he is at the beck and call of several cardiologists. He has driven to different airports for no reason other than just because the doctor wanted to fly out of a different terminal at all hours of the day, taken them to extremely fancy restaurants where the bill has exceeded $500 per person, and on and on.

I know this example isn't related to vaxes, but I can't imagine that they do things much differently when they want a certain vax pushed.

Maybe some practices lose money on vaxes, but I doubt that they all do. And even if they take a loss on the vax, I bet they make it up in other ways (like fancy entourage people).
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#23 of 124 Old 06-01-2009, 11:56 PM
 
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Thanks, Amy!

I knew I read this somewhere. So drs. DO receive gifts from the pharma. Ranging from $100 to $127,000.

Seriously, if doctors lose money on vaccines, why do they put up such a fight when someone doesn't want to vaccinate? They will be making more money per visit for a non-vax patient then the vax patient.

I think part of the profit loss comes from pre-ordering vaccines and then not selling enough...so non-vaxing parents are not helping them move their goods.

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#24 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 12:10 AM
 
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There must be some major loopholes in this. One of our best friends is a cardiologist in a specialized field within cardiology (can't remember what). He was here after the beginning of the year, and he had 2 guys with him that we kept jokingly calling his "entourage". A manufacturer of some heart thing sent them with him to a convention he was attending in our hometown. They bought him every meal, every drink, and a limo to take him everywhere they went. They even paid for my dh's meals and drinks when they went out.

Our friend was telling us that this is RAMPANT in the medical industry. One of the guys in the entourage was telling us that he is at the beck and call of several cardiologists. He has driven to different airports for no reason other than just because the doctor wanted to fly out of a different terminal at all hours of the day, taken them to extremely fancy restaurants where the bill has exceeded $500 per person, and on and on.

I know this example isn't related to vaxes, but I can't imagine that they do things much differently when they want a certain vax pushed.

Maybe some practices lose money on vaxes, but I doubt that they all do. And even if they take a loss on the vax, I bet they make it up in other ways (like fancy entourage people).



All those perks bug me, too, but they are rampant in a lot of industries. I used to work in financial services, and omg the stuff they would do to try to woo rich potential customers was ridiculous. And my brother in the auto industry as well. It really bugs me that the richer the person, the more freebies they get.

One of life's unfair little quirks I suppose....
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#25 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 12:15 AM
 
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Seriously, if doctors lose money on vaccines, why do they put up such a fight when someone doesn't want to vaccinate? They will be making more money per visit for a non-vax patient then the vax patient.
Because it isn't all about the money. Whether you agree or not, most doctors believe that vaccines are very important to the health of the individual child and that maintaining vaccination rates is very important to the health of society. Maybe even in their view it is harming the child to deny the child a vaccine, and they don't want to contribute to that harm. Same reason LLL and some other organizations and push breastfeeding as hard as they are able, or I've heard of midwives who refuse to attend births for women who plan to circ. if the baby is a boy. Vastly different reasons, of course, but the same basic motivation of feeling a duty to protect the health of children.
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#26 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 12:44 AM
 
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I've removed some posts in this thread that were either UAVs or were quoting them. Please keep within the UA.

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#27 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 12:49 AM
 
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wildkingdom, I believe you. One of my closest friends is a ped doc, I know what it's like in her practice.

pers, well said.
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#28 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 12:54 AM
 
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Actually Dr. Sears has a bit on his website about this very practice posted May 29th 2009:

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

He writes "... I recently talked with two physicians in different states that told me the HMO plans that they contract with do chart reviews and patient surveys at the end of each year. If their office scores high enough on these reviews, the HMO plan gives them a several thousand dollar bonus. This bonus varies depending on the number of patients the doctor sees. One of the requirements for a patient’s chart to pass the test is that they are fully vaccinated. "

Ahhh loopholes.
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#29 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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WildKingdom~ I don't see why you don't like my choice of links.

Ok, here are some more.

Lynch ML. The uptake of childhood immunization and
financial incentives to general practitioners. Health Econ
1994;3:117-125.

Achat H, McIntyre P, Burgess M. Health care incentives in
immunisation. Aust NZ J Public Health 1999;23:285-288.

Quote:
It was found that financial incentives encouraged prenatal
visits and childhood check-ups in France and Austria, and
Britain used financial rewards to increase general
practitioner vaccination rates. In Australia, the General
Practitioner Immunisation Incentive (GPII) Scheme aims to
improve low vaccination rates by monetary rewards to
general practitioners and by parental financial incentives.
Harvard Medical School in Ethics Quandry http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/bu...hool.html?_r=1

Johns Hopkins will ban gifts from drug companies http://www.bizjournals.com/washingto...6/daily61.html

Johns Hopkins eyeing ban... http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...pharma%20gifts

If doctors didn't get incentives then why do they need banning?

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#30 of 124 Old 06-02-2009, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Karry View Post
How do you know this? Any proof you can share?
You will have to contact www.medicalveritas.com to get your answer. I'm sure that the Editor-in-Chief will be more than happy to get you that info.

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