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#31 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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I edited my post for clarification. Your ideas on protection of the child would have yielded worse results than simple vaccination of the siblings because measles is incredibly contagious and is not a disease 'of the dirty'. It started in one sibling and was passed on. We can attempt to grasp at straws all we want, but the fact remains that the measles vaccine protects against the disease and transmission of the disease...and that protections rates after two vaccines (esp with wild exposure as these kids had) is incredibly high...nearly 99%.

Sure, you can say, well, they may have fallen in that unprotected percentage but the chances of that are far far far smaller than the obvious truth that the siblings passed measles to the child.

These are the truths that people seem to want to run from. Herd immunity, in some cases with some vaccines, offers protection to certain groups of people. Infants are one group. immune system problems are another.

We have ample evidence that the herd works for these groups, and the developed world deaths that we have on record in these groups in the past few years all indicate a drop in herd immunity.

We have another example of a unvaccinated teenage boy going into a waiting room with measles and infecting 6 others. 3 were not old enough for the vaccine. 2 suffered SSPE- these sources are in german; you can get a translate through google if you want :

http://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/b...2836&nodeid=26

http://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/b...=26&query=sspe

http://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/v...talie-SSPE.wmv

http://www.wdr.de/tv/quarks/sendungs...ng.jsp?pbild=3

sure, many here will say "he might have been in the 1% of vaccine failure!" or the like, but, to me, the evidence is clear that there are children who need the herd, who are protected by the herd, and sometimes they will fall ill because of someone else's choices.


It is simply a risk we take. I don't think denying it is the way to go.

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For me the story illustrates that there are children who are disadvantaged when it comes to their immune systems. I think it is far too simplistic to conclude that having had the whole family vaccinated would have kept this child illness free.
I want to point out that you are misrepresenting my claim. no where did I say that vaccination would have kept the whole family disease free. It probably would have saved their youngest from the measles and the complications they faced because of it.

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#32 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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I am quite certain that we will not come to a common understanding on how best to protect children with compromised immune systems. As I said, I am not in that position and I hope that neither are you. I can only imagine how difficult it is to parent a child who is so fragile.

I know that I would never rely on herd immunity whatever my child's medical condition.

And I know that I would never take a sick child to a public place. I am constantly astonished by people who give their children paracetamol or some other drug to lower a fever and take them out to play/school/malls etc and think that is OK.

I am sorry if it came across like I was putting words in your mouth. But I find the aurgument that vaccines could have prevented such stories an oversimplification. And a skirting of the responsibilities of all parents to care for their sick children in a responsible way - regardless of the childrens vaccination status.

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#33 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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measles is highly contagious, one of the most contagious diseases in the world I believe. whether or not one tries to *rely* on herd immunity or not, it will happen independently of your choices really. In areas of high vaccination rates, measles will be pretty much nonexistent. where vaccination numbers fall, the disease will return.

They chose to leave their family unvaccinated despite having a child with serious medication conditions and those around them chose the same for their own children. the outbreak occurred and now they face what they are facing.

she obviously tried to prevent the passage:

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Sacha, 36, said: "Four of my children contracted measles but they are all fine now. Claire got it first and she passed it onto the other two.

"They were kept off school for about a month in total, and given medication for the irritation and to help keep their temperatures down.

"Ellen got it last, and while it was only a mild dose we were obviously very worried after what she has been through."
and even the mom thinks it was her own children that gave it to the youngest.

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#34 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 03:14 PM
 
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I am not denying that measles is contagious. I am sorry if that is what came across in my posts.

I am questioning vaccine induced herd immunity as the only way to keep children with fragile immune systems healthy.

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#35 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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can you provide evidence of this? measles pretty much infects anyone it comes in contact with that is not immune.

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#36 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
I have seen this very anger here. I have seen people talk about those who choose to vaccinate as 'pumping their kids full of poison'; maybe people have read it so much that it no longer seems like an attack. I have seen people write that those who vaccinate are "putting toxins in their kids for heck of it"- not exact wording but close.
I'm not disagreeing with you and of course am speaking in generalizations here since there is anger on both sides of ANY issue. Yes people do say and write all of those things that you have said. What Im trying to illustrate is that it is more so that the non vaxers are labeled simply because they are in the minority. All minorities are labeled. People who vaccinate their children do not live in fear that they can't get insurance or that perhaps they will be accused of medical neglect. How would they feel if they had a social worker threaten to take their child away for "pumping them full of poison" ??They don't have to worry about sending their children to school. I think that is where the anger stems from. The uneccesary labeling and ridiculous obstacles that are in their path. JMHO

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#37 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 03:27 PM
 
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Evidence of what?

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#38 of 52 Old 06-09-2009, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
can you provide evidence of this? measles pretty much infects anyone it comes in contact with that is not immune.
Yes, measles is highly contagious but it cannot survive in the environment for more than a few hours. So, while sanitary conditions may not apply - living conditions certainly do. If a person lives in a 1500 square foot home with 3 brothers and sisters, then the odds of someone else getting measles are high. A person that has only one sibling, lives in a 2800 square foot home and is able to be sufficiently quarantined is less likely to spread the disease.

Vaccinated people can and do get measles. They may show milder symptoms, but I'm not convinced that this is all that great for the very young or the compromised.

Mild fever. Mum serves the antipyretic. All better.
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#39 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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perhaps another example for member runes of the call for segregation?
She said keeping her child out of school, which I interpret to be HOMESCHOOLING, not creating a segregated school for immune-compromised children.

School is not the only place that children come in contact with each other. Are people calling for segregated playgrounds? Segregated places of worship? Segregated summer camps? Segregated Chuck E. Cheeses?

And for your previous comment, asking about shedding from vaccinating kids, which is a valid question is hardly hatred or vitriol towards vaccinating families. As for the "injecting poison" comments, I find they are few and far between, especially considering that this board has a much larger representation of vaccine-free and vaccine-choice families than any other place on the web.

Hypothetical question: As a selective-delayed vaccinator, which school would you choose for your child if there was such segregation, and why?
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#40 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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probably homeschool if such segregation became accepted. There is already enough segregation in the schools around here.

The segregation would not just be 'vax v nonvax' but also socioeconomic-- though not on purpose. But we have numerous studies on the make up of vaccine rejection/vaccine critics and I would not send my kids to a school with such a selective make up. It took us a while to find a school here that was a mixture in body but also safe and academically sound-- I'd probably just give up and co-op with the community if more segregation became law.

I don't find the ejection comments to be too few or far between; I see at least one a week it seems and maybe more.

eta: the reason I said that keep out of school comment was a call for segregation was because the poster insinuated the other people should keep their kids out if they are immune compromised. it was not a post of personal choice but a thought that others should do it, too.

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#41 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
perhaps another example for member runes of the call for segregation?
This is exactly what I was thinking. It made me recall the "seperate but equal" rules that were once in the US.

I hope this does not become a reality. First I want to send my kids to the best schools for them. I would hate that choice to be lessened by my medical decisions for them. Not everyone is able to homeschool.
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#42 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 03:00 PM
 
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But you wouldn't have the "luxury" of that choice, carrie. I was hoping that you would answer with an awareness of that. Instead, you took a potshot at non vaccinating families, as if their well documented (higher) socioeconomic status and (higher) education status are somehow distasteful.

You wouldn't be able to send your child to the vaxing school if you wanted to. As a selective/delayed vaxer, your choices are the nonvax school, or homeschool.



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probably homeschool if such segregation became accepted. There is already enough segregation in the schools around here.

The segregation would not just be 'vax v nonvax' but also socioeconomic-- though not on purpose. But we have numerous studies on the make up of vaccine rejection/vaccine critics and I would not send my kids to a school with such a selective make up. It took us a while to find a school here that was a mixture in body but also safe and academically sound-- I'd probably just give up and co-op with the community if more segregation became law.

I don't find the ejection comments to be too few or far between; I see at least one a week it seems and maybe more.

eta: the reason I said that keep out of school comment was a call for segregation was because the poster insinuated the other people should keep their kids out if they are immune compromised. it was not a post of personal choice but a thought that others should do it, too.
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#43 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 03:11 PM
 
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sorry for so many edits- I am going to assume you mean it this way:

(eta) if by that section you mean I would not have the luxury of choice because of segregation laws, I would answer that that is not true. I could vaccinate my kids to get them into the other schools. I feel that is a choice.

And you are putting words in my mouth. I do not think it is distasteful that those who are more education and of high socioeconomic status tend to second guess these things. I don't have any distaste for that. It's just a fact, not something I feel any way towards. It's like "the sky is blue" it just is....would I love for the these traits to be more spread out? definitely...that's why I think it's important to spread knowledge.

what I said was that a school made solely of a population like this would not be one I would want. I want my kids to be amongst all walks of life. that is a personal choice we have made. I have nothing against caucasian people, but I have no interest in sending my kids to a school comprised solely of white kids.


I don't get how you got these things from my post. And you are completely glossing over the idea that telling immune compromised kids they should probably be homeschooled is segregation, which was the original point of the post you responded to at first.

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#44 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 03:24 PM
 
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and before anyone else jumps on this:

Obviously it's not a 100% guarentee that a school deemed " for non vaccinating or selective families" would be like the studies we have-- it could be very diverse. In the hypothetical we are talking about, I would definitely check that out.

I would also probably wait before utilizing such schools; if pertussis, measles and the like became common place as in some places in germany and Switzerland, I would probably stay away and go for another school or coop or whatever.

there would be a million things to look at in this hypothetical! i don't think I can do them all justice-- but diversity is big for us; we've found a good place but even now we are still looking for something better-- an aim to move as DH has a new job.

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#45 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 03:37 PM
 
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sorry for so many edits- I am going to assume you mean it this way:

(eta) if by that section you mean I would not have the luxury of choice because of segregation laws, I would answer that that is not true. I could vaccinate my kids to get them into the other schools. I feel that is a choice.

I meant that you would not have the luxury to remain a selective and delayed vaccinator. You're right, I did leave out the choice that you could potentially fully vaccinate your children in order for them to go to a fully vaccinated school. Sorry for my omission.


And you are putting words in my mouth. I do not think it is distasteful that those who are more education and of high socioeconomic status tend to second guess these things. I don't have any distaste for that. It's just a fact, not something I feel any way towards. It's like "the sky is blue" it just is....would I love for the these traits to be more spread out? definitely...that's why I think it's important to spread knowledge.

what I said was that a school made solely of a population like this would not be one I would want. I want my kids to be amongst all walks of life. that is a personal choice we have made. I have nothing against caucasian people, but I have no interest in sending my kids to a school comprised solely of white kids.

Population like what? Just because the demographic statistics show that non-vaccinating or vaccine choice families tend to have higher socioeconomic status and higher education status than fully vaccinating families does not mean that they are not a diverse group. People have many reasons for not vaccinating, obviously, because there are medical, philosophical and religious exemptions (in most states.)

I don't get how you got these things from my post. And you are completely glossing over the idea that telling immune compromised kids they should probably be homeschooled is segregation, which was the original point of the post you responded to at first.

I would never tell an immune compromised child that they should be homeschooled. I do think that it would be a consideration, and I agree with ema-adama that if my child were immunocompromised, I would rather take matters into my own hands with things that I can control vs. relying on "the herd" and in that case would homeschool. I don't think of homeschooling as segregation in any way shape or form. Some assume that it is, but for me, it is a 100% viable and appropriate educational option regardless of a child's immune or vax status.
I think we may have cross posted a bit.

And vaccinated does not mean immune, so would a non-vaccinated but fully immune child be "allowed" to go to the vax school? Would there be regular titre testing to see if the vaxed kids are in fact immune?

Many many many slippery slopes.
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#46 of 52 Old 06-10-2009, 03:42 PM
 
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It could be diverse, but I was just relying on the studies we have and the, as unscientific as it is, experiences I have in this area.

But don't get me wrong; I'd look first and not just assume but there would be other considerations as I said in the last post.

in any event, that is probably getting away from the topic- I do that all the time but I felt the post I originally referred to was not just talking about the member herself but it was a recommendation for all-- the idea that 'that kind of kid' should not be in a mainstream school or whatever.

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#47 of 52 Old 06-11-2009, 01:22 PM
 
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#48 of 52 Old 06-11-2009, 06:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mommy2Austin View Post
You know whats funny about that...I wouldn't mind sending my kids to a school of other unvaccinated kids. I'd actually prefer it! More than likely I'd get along with the parents better than most of the uninformed fully vaxing parents (not the ones who research and decide to vax)

ETA: The article was extremely poorly written with little fact and mostly uninformed opinion.
So would I, but I'm going to do cyberschool instead.

Hmm, an article poorly written? Hey, that's the soup du jour for the media today.

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#49 of 52 Old 06-12-2009, 12:07 AM
 
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I want to tell a story.

When I was 8 I got measles. My family was living in a tiny apartment. I remember it as two rooms, but I guess it was actually 4. Living room, bedroom, kitchen, bathroom. There were seven of us. The children all slept in the living room, except for my youngest brother, who shared the bedroom with my parents.

My two older brother had already gone through the measles, as children did back in the dark ages of the 40s and 50s. My younger siblings, ages three and one had not. My mother moved me into the bedroom for care and probably pushed my father and the baby back into the living room to sleep.

This is the weird part. My two younger siblings did not, at that time, catch the measles. I'm sure they both had them later on, but not then.

I'd suspect that my little brother didn't get them because my mother had passed on antibodies.

No idea about my little sister.

The conditions were ideal for a mini-epidemic, but it didn't occur.
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#50 of 52 Old 06-12-2009, 12:08 AM
 
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Wanted to add that in the Pink Book (CDC) chapter on measles I remember reading something about most kids back in the old days catching measles between 5 and 9 years of age. I wonder how that was managed?
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#51 of 52 Old 06-12-2009, 02:24 AM
 
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Wanted to add that in the Pink Book (CDC) chapter on measles I remember reading something about most kids back in the old days catching measles between 5 and 9 years of age. I wonder how that was managed?
That is a really good question.

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#52 of 52 Old 06-12-2009, 04:11 AM
 
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Totally OT, but when I saw this on New Posts, I thought, "they moved the Dodgers again? What city is MMR?"

<--- dork.

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