Headline reads "It's time we created special schools for MMR dodgers" - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-08-2009, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...tt-mmr-schools


If the government invited schools to decide their own vaccine policies, this would show exemplary commitment to localism. Given that vaccinators predominate, even in Islington, most schools would probably support the MMR as a condition of enrolment, leaving dodgers to send their children to schools tolerant of the unjabbed, where their diverse immune systems can be challenged in a truly diseased environment. Admittedly, these MMR-free academies may be unfair on the children. But so, when they could have been eradicated, are measles epidemics.
(bolding mine)

Is this woman for real?? Because we all know unvaccinated children are reseviours of disease!! This article is a hostile piece of opinionated drivel. It is sad that it is passed off as journalism

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Old 06-08-2009, 06:11 PM
 
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You know whats funny about that...I wouldn't mind sending my kids to a school of other unvaccinated kids. I'd actually prefer it! More than likely I'd get along with the parents better than most of the uninformed fully vaxing parents (not the ones who research and decide to vax)

ETA: The article was extremely poorly written with little fact and mostly uninformed opinion.

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Old 06-08-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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I think emotions are running high europe in some areas where you have sick kids and kids who have been intentionally exposed still coming to school and infecting others.

There are stories coming out of Wales of stuff like this happening, and one would think that during a measles outbreak, a parent who has chosen not to vaccinate would know the 4 day fever and whatnot and either not send their kid in or be tested- calling first to be sure you don't infect others, etcetc.

But the answer will never lie in stuff like this because, besides causing segregation, it will also drive people farther away from information and fuel mistrust.

edit: btw, referring in my post to the article itself where she says schools should set their own rules and that most would be pro vax with a few left over for those who choose to not vaccinate. The headline itself is just...I don't even have words really to explain it...

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Old 06-08-2009, 06:39 PM
 
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That whole article made me go :/
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:57 PM
 
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That would be a pretty interesting experiment, IMO. May be vax'ers would stop blaming measles and mumps outbreaks on unvaccinated.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:58 PM
 
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Sweet! It'd be such a relief to meet more like-minded parents. And hey, if we were all stuck in our vaccine-free schools together, we'd have way more opportunities to organize and bring medical freedom back to the people by ending mandatory vaccination programs. Excellent idea--I hope it catches on in the States!


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Old 06-08-2009, 09:31 PM
 
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Sweet! It'd be such a relief to meet more like-minded parents. And hey, if we were all stuck in our vaccine-free schools together, we'd have way more opportunities to organize and bring medical freedom back to the people by ending mandatory vaccination programs. Excellent idea--I hope it catches on in the States!

Plus think of all the chicken pox parties we could have

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Old 06-08-2009, 11:08 PM
 
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I worked in a private school as a business manager for three years. This particular school had a fair number of unvaxed kids. During the three years we had one very minor outbreak of whooping cough with no serious consequences and a very nice outbreak of chickenpox in the...can't remember if it was second grade or third grade...but all of the children survived in good order.

However, completely unconnected, the child of the janitor, who had been vaxed for chickenpox came down with it (he didn't get it from the outbreak at the school, honest). He became very ill and ended up with partial paralysis that took almost a year to wear off.

Anyway, I sort of doubt that schools full of unvaxed kids would actually be hotbeds of illness as the vaccine enthusiasts are hoping. Don't you think they are picturing the children in the unvaxed schools just sick all the time and the parents deciding to vax from despair and guilt?
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:12 PM
 
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We already have examples in germany of schools with very high refusal rates and they do end up with large measles outbreaks and the like. So you can't really say it wouldn't happen when we already have examples.

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Old 06-08-2009, 11:19 PM
 
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Yes, outbreaks would occur. But serious health consequences would be rare, and once the outbreak was over the children would go back to school and soldier on, just as used to happen in the dark ages of the 1950s when measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox raged unchecked through the American school system. I can remember all that. I attended 14 different school by the time I reached 8th grade. No school I attended ever had to close down due to an epidemic of anything. No class was ever half empty due to an outbreak. It was a big, fat, nothing.

And, of course, I never encountered any children with asthma or peanut allergies, either. They must have existed, but they were pretty rare.

I much doubt that the parents in Germany are rushing out to vaccinate their children because of an occasional outbreak of measles. And mumps outbreaks have been happening even with very high coverage, so the vaccine doesn't seem to be accomplishing much except to push the illness into puberty, where it is certainly more painful and is somewhat more serious.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:30 PM
 
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Maybe then they can finally compare vaxed and unvaxed populations for differences in the utilization of special education services, as well as comparing rates of documented medical issues such as asthma and allergies. You know, actually do the kind of studies that need to be done.

Wouldn't be interesting to see whether vaxing families would actually opt to send their kids to the unvaxing schools? Would that be allowed? Or only unvaxed kids are allowed to go to their special school but vaxed kids have the choice?

So many ethical and discrimination issues surrounding this.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:17 AM
 
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I still don't know why vaxers have such anger and hatred toward unvaxers. If your child is vaxed and they work, what's the big deal?

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:20 AM
 
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Vaccines aren't 100% effective, some utilize the herd, some kids can't be vaccinate and need the herd, etcetcetc. the usual reasons.

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Vaccines aren't 100% effective, some utilize the herd, some kids can't be vaccinate and need the herd, etcetcetc. the usual reasons.
Still doesn't explain the anger and hatred...rational thought goes out the window when most people hear "Non-vaxer"

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:33 AM
 
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There is hatred and vitriol on both sides, just read around a bit and it comes out quite clearly.

But one side outnumbers the other obviously and most of them don't seem to realize that anger in such large numbers is going to be much less productive than from the smaller side, kwim?

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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There is hatred and vitriol on both sides, just read around a bit and it comes out quite clearly.

But one side outnumbers the other obviously and most of them don't seem to realize that anger in such large numbers is going to be much less productive than from the smaller side, kwim?
I hear you and agree, but I think the anger from the non-vaxing side stems from something totally different. Non-vaxers do not become outraged when they discover that their child has just been in contact with a vaccinated child. Even the ones that truly believe that vaccinating is harmful do not get crazed and hurl threats and spew hatred when they encounter a vaccinating parent. (not saying all vaccinating parents do this to non-vaxing parents at all so please do not read it that way) What they seem to be angry at is the total lack of respect for their parenting choice from........well pretty much everyone. Doesn't seem to matter that they have a vaccine damaged child or not.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 06-09-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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There is hatred and vitriol on both sides, just read around a bit and it comes out quite clearly.
I respectfully disagree. Please show me just one article from a major media source that discusses non-vaxers trying to keep vaxers away from their kids by segregating them. Have you read the comments on some of the online articles regarding vaccinations? It is truly appalling what people will write about how parents who don't vaccinate are neglectful, and how unvaccinated children are disgusting reservoirs of disease.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:02 PM
 
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I honestly do not understand the line of reasoning that children with compromised immune systems recquire the herd to protect them (providing the efficacy of the vaccine even allows herd immunity to develop, and providing that adults are not considered part of the herd when there are issues of waning immunity, and that there is the nasty problem of no boosting of immunity with the wild viruses no longer in ciculation).

If I were the mother of a child who was unable to be vaccinated due to medical reasons I most definitly would not rely on others to keep my child safe. I might feel safer if I did not see the disease on a regular basis, but I would be doing everything I could to understand how to support my child's immune system and tailor medical interventions to his/her specific needs. It cannot be said with any conviction that every outbreak of illness could have been prevented with a vaccine, as vaccines are not 100% effective. Perhaps the disease could have been prevented, but it is not accurate to assume it would have been. If a child with a compromised immune system contracted a disease from a child who had been vaccinated but had failed to respond to the vaccine, the effect of the illness would be the same. I do not think it would make it any less tragic.

Back to addressing whose responsibility it is to care for the health of children with fragile immune systems. I thankfully am not in this position so far. But I am sure that should I ever find myself in that position, I will be taking personal responsibility for keeping my child as healthy as I can. I will not be demanding another mother inject her child with a vaccine that has some chance of preventing disease.

I realise this is a very real and emotional issue, and that there are mothers with children who are immune compromised. And perhaps there are mothers in that position who are very concerned about herd immunity being compromised and thus compromising the health of a child. I just do not think I would invest that much in controlling the choices of others when there is so much more to that I could do to care for my child.

I do not think having seperate school would help the situation. In the case of measles alone, there are mathematical models showing that measles will likely re-emerge in highly vaccinated populations. The attempt to eradicate measles might not be quite that simple.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...225356116f4469
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Using current estimates of duration of vaccine-derived protection, measles would not be expected to re-emerge quickly in countries with sustained high routine vaccine coverage. However, re-emergence is possible to occur several decades after introduction of high levels of vaccination.
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/ajep/ab...195628!8091!-1
Quote:
Based on a protective threshold plaque reduction neutralization (PRN) titer of 120, the authors estimate the mean duration of vaccine-induced protection in absence of reexposure to be 25 years (95% confidence interval (CI) 18, 48). After long-term absence of circulating virus, the mathematical model predicts that 80% (95% CI 65, 91) of all seroconverted vaccinees have titers below the protective threshold.
Not conclusive, but worth thinking about when promises of eradication of measles are made and vaccines protecting the children with compromised immune systems.

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:04 PM
 
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I respectfully disagree. Please show me just one article from a major media source that discusses non-vaxers trying to keep vaxers away from their kids by segregating them. Have you read the comments on some of the online articles regarding vaccinations? It is truly appalling what people will write about how parents who don't vaccinate are neglectful, and how unvaccinated children are disgusting reservoirs of disease.
Just read around AOA and look at the comments on some of the news articles recently posted here. You will see the anger and hatred on the other side as well.

and nice move of the goal posts by the way that now my evidence HAS to be in the mainstream media. But what is mainstream? Huffingtonpost has lots of anti vaccine stuff and the comments there can be very heated against the provaccine side.

ETA: just look in this very thread..people would be delighted to segregate.

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:06 PM
 
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ema-adama this story seems pertinent here:

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news...ama.5326204.jp

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:10 PM
 
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I hear you and agree, but I think the anger from the non-vaxing side stems from something totally different. Non-vaxers do not become outraged when they discover that their child has just been in contact with a vaccinated child. Even the ones that truly believe that vaccinating is harmful do not get crazed and hurl threats and spew hatred when they encounter a vaccinating parent. (not saying all vaccinating parents do this to non-vaxing parents at all so please do not read it that way) What they seem to be angry at is the total lack of respect for their parenting choice from........well pretty much everyone. Doesn't seem to matter that they have a vaccine damaged child or not.
I have seen this very anger here. I have seen people talk about those who choose to vaccinate as 'pumping their kids full of poison'; maybe people have read it so much that it no longer seems like an attack. I have seen people write that those who vaccinate are "putting toxins in their kids for heck of it"- not exact wording but close.

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:11 PM
 
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Sweet! It'd be such a relief to meet more like-minded parents. And hey, if we were all stuck in our vaccine-free schools together, we'd have way more opportunities to organize and bring medical freedom back to the people by ending mandatory vaccination programs. Excellent idea--I hope it catches on in the States!

It would be nice to have my tax dollars go to a school district like that. You often hear vaccine defenders state that those who don't comply with vaccine mandates should homeschool their kids or send them to a private school, while forgetting we all pay school taxes. Give me my school tax dollars (that happen to be higher than any other tax entity), then we'll talk.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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And I would also point out to runes that the article states that schools should be able to choose whether or not they require the vaccine.

The article headline does not match the article. But know that headlines are often not written by the author.

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:16 PM
 
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ema-adama this story seems pertinent here:

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news...ama.5326204.jp
Can you point me to what part of the story is pertinant?

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:17 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1096241

There has been lots of fear about vaccinated kids on this very board. I would say at least once a week or so you get a thread about worry about shedding or playing with kids who were vaccinated.

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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I worked in a private school as a business manager for three years. This particular school had a fair number of unvaxed kids. During the three years we had one very minor outbreak of whooping cough with no serious consequences and a very nice outbreak of chickenpox in the...can't remember if it was second grade or third grade...but all of the children survived in good order.

However, completely unconnected, the child of the janitor, who had been vaxed for chickenpox came down with it (he didn't get it from the outbreak at the school, honest). He became very ill and ended up with partial paralysis that took almost a year to wear off.

Anyway, I sort of doubt that schools full of unvaxed kids would actually be hotbeds of illness as the vaccine enthusiasts are hoping. Don't you think they are picturing the children in the unvaxed schools just sick all the time and the parents deciding to vax from despair and guilt?
^^At my son's school, a good half of the students are only partially-vaccinated. The only outbreaks have been for infections for which there are no vaccines (pink eye, 5th disease, coxsakie virus) and a few cases of the flu. The one odd incidence was in the winter when pretty much the entire school had a cough that lasted for 2 straight months; well the coughing fully-vaxed kids were allowed to remain in school while the rest couldn't come back without a doctor's note

ETA: it wasn't whooping cough


 

 

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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Can you point me to what part of the story is pertinant?
You were talking about protecting those who could not be vaccinated. I thought this story was a good illustration that sometimes it's just not possible in the manner you described.
It also illustrates one example of someone the herd could have protected/a class needing protection from the herd.

edited for clarification

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Old 06-09-2009, 12:18 PM
 
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I honestly do not understand the line of reasoning that children with compromised immune systems recquire the herd to protect them.
i agree. wouldn't those be the kids who should not be in mainstream school then? it would suck to have a child with a compromised immune system, but i, too, would probably protect them in a myriad of ways, first and foremost keeping them out of school.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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i agree. wouldn't those be the kids who should not be in mainstream school then? it would suck to have a child with a compromised immune system, but i, too, would probably protect them in a myriad of ways, first and foremost keeping them out of school.
perhaps another example for member runes of the call for segregation?

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Old 06-09-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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You were talking about protecting those who could not be vaccinated. I thought this story was a good illustration that sometimes it's just not possible.
It also illustrates one example of someone the herd could have protected/a class needing protection from the herd.
That's my point. A vaccine induced herd immunity is not a sure thing. It might have helped, but no one can say with 100% authority that it would have.

There is not enough information available to understand how this little 8 month old girl could have been protected. We do not know whether the mother was vaccinated or not (affecting the anibodies transferred to the baby through the placenta). We do not know whether she is being breastfed or not and what other steps that family have taken to boost her immune system.

For me the story illustrates that there are children who are disadvantaged when it comes to their immune systems. I think it is far too simplistic to conclude that having had the whole family vaccinated would have kept this child illness free.

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