Freaking out about swine flu vaccine, can anyone make me feel better? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-03-2009, 02:11 PM
 
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I thought this article is very interesting

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16849102/E...Depopulate-USA

Elizabeth - Single mom to my 3 year old daugher and a full time graduate student . I support
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Old 08-03-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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Isnt Baxter one of the companies also?
Yes although tests on theirs haven't started yet because they don't have a finished product. They are expecting to finish sometime this month I believe...then they will start their trials

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Old 08-03-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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The WHO declared it a pandemic like a month ago? They recently changed their definition of pandemic to include ANY disease that is easy spread and is all over the world? I think?

I'm still trying to understand why they changed their definition. Anyone know the official word on the definition change?
They changed it back in March...about 4-6 weeks b4 the swine flu outbreak in Mexico.

Pandemic used to be highly contagious, widespread, across multiple continents and causing a high mortaility rate...they dropped the high mortaility rate bit in March...convenient don't you think?? right in time for the swine flu outbreak so that they can officially declare a pandemic and get going on a vaccine. Under the old definition they could not declare a pandemic as the mortality rate has been pretty low

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 08-03-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post
The WHO declared it a pandemic like a month ago? They recently changed their definition of pandemic to include ANY disease that is easy spread and is all over the world? I think?

I'm still trying to understand why they changed their definition. Anyone know the official word on the definition change?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...637119,00.html

Quote:
SPIEGEL: Do you think the WHO declared a pandemic prematurely?

Jefferson: Don't you think there's something noteworthy about the fact that the WHO has changed its definition of pandemic? The old definition was a new virus, which went around quickly, for which you didn't have immunity, and which created a high morbidity and mortality rate. Now the last two have been dropped, and that's how swine flu has been categorized as a pandemic.
You can go to the WHO's website to see their current definition of a pandemic. It now has nothing to do with high morbidity or mortality rates. They CHANGED the definition in March I believe - about a month before swine flu outbreak first emerged from Mexico in April. Why would they do such a thing? Well one reason might be because they somehow "knew" there would be an outbreak of some sort in the near future (which would not be resulting in high morbidity), and wanted it to be declared a "pandemic" anyway- and why would they want to declare a pandemic? Well declaring a pandemic puts in motion a chain of events as we have very well seen - including the passing of emergency laws attempting to "mandate" vaccine for said pandemic.

I may not have explained that very well - maybe someone else can do a better job. But if you know the history of events this year, including Baxter's supposed "oops- mistake" of contaminating flu vaccine with live bird flu and sending it all over (15 countries I think?) the world intended to be injected into unsuspecting people everywhere- that very well WOULD have caused a deadly (high morbidity and mortality) pandemic - luckily for the world it was caught by one individual who tested it on ferrets who died - what happened next? Hmmm... they change their definition of pandemic and THEN swine flu mysteriously appears in mexico. Now they want to inject EVERYONE with their vaccine - Baxter of course is among the companies making swine flu vaccine.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/sto...e-h1n1-vaccine

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:00 PM
 
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I get all that... I think it's a real possibility that they're just trying to do things for money or whatever reason...

But... was there an OFFICIAL reason released for the change? Because changing that one part seems pretty stupid on the face of it... they had to have an official excuse, no?

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Old 08-03-2009, 07:36 PM
 
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I get all that... I think it's a real possibility that they're just trying to do things for money or whatever reason...

But... was there an OFFICIAL reason released for the change? Because changing that one part seems pretty stupid on the face of it... they had to have an official excuse, no?
That's a good question I hope somebody has the answer to. You'd think there would be a pretty good reason for sure.

I do know that back in May countries were urging the WHO to change pandemic definition. They weren't happy with it, and neither should we be. Too bad the WHO didn't care about their wishes or we wouldn't be in this mess today. It's totally suspicious they did not care.

http://m.reporternews.com/news/2009/...ic-definition/


Nations urge WHO to change pandemic definition

Quote:
Britain, Japan and other nations urged the World Health Organization today to change the way it decides to declare a pandemic -- saying the agency must consider how deadly the virus is, not just how fast it is spreading.

...

WHO's current system focuses on how widespread the disease has become without regard to its severity. Some member nations are anxious to avoid having the agency declare a swine flu pandemic because the ramifications of that scientific decision could be very costly and politically charged.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:58 AM
 
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Let's just see how Greece handles it.
www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFl...
Quote:
"We decided that the entire population, all citizens and residents, without any exception, will be vaccinated against the flu," Health Minister Dimitris Avramopoulos said after a ministerial meeting."
www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...
Quote:
ATHENS — Greece announced on Friday it would vaccinate its whole population against swine flu, the first country to introduce such a broad measure amid the current pandemic.
Our country will be among the first to obtain the vaccines but they will not be used before official international and European authorisation," he added.
Hmm, what does he know that we don't that he could even think that such authorization might be forthcoming?
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:24 AM
 
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This whole changing definition thing reminds me of what an old nurse told me. She is (or was...not sure if she's still alive) the wife of the head of the chiropractic school I went to. IN the 40s, she was a young nurse. She had just gotten through her schooling, and she knew about the diseases going on. In particular, polio. Polio had certain symptoms that had to show up before they could call it polio. Then the vaccine came out. And the definition changed. The requirement for the fever was higher and a longer period of time, and other things were different. Basically, the description made it really really HARD to "get" polio, after the vaccine came out, though it was made based on people who had been diagnosed with the "easier to get" symptoms.

I tell you...I hate conspiracy theories, but this swine flu stuff really has my radar pinging. Er, sonar? Does radar "ping"?


And no, I doubt WHO had to have any sort of reason to change a definition...
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by LenasMommy View Post
Has anyone read anything about the theories some people have about the use of these vaccines? I'm really praying that these are just conspiracy theories, but it really freaks me out. I recommend checking out this guys videos. He uses government sources to back things up, which is even scarier. Here is his link: http://www.youtube.com/user/91177info

But there are those who believe this is a tactic to depopulate people. That FEMA and the CDC have massive amounts of coffins ready and concentration camps for those who refuse the vaccine. Now, this seems totally sci fi, but everything just doesn't seem right.

So what do ya'll think? Conspiracy theory? I'm not too convinced it is.. Usually I don't fall for this kind of stuff, but I just can't shake that feeling that something is really wrong. Opinions? Ideas? Please no flaming.. I am just pointing out some other views for the discussion. Thanks!

If this is true, and its almost too scary to think that it is, what are you doing to prepare? How would you avoid getting the vaccine? Where can you go??
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:43 AM
 
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This whole changing definition thing reminds me of what an old nurse told me. She is (or was...not sure if she's still alive) the wife of the head of the chiropractic school I went to. IN the 40s, she was a young nurse. She had just gotten through her schooling, and she knew about the diseases going on. In particular, polio. Polio had certain symptoms that had to show up before they could call it polio. Then the vaccine came out. And the definition changed. The requirement for the fever was higher and a longer period of time, and other things were different. Basically, the description made it really really HARD to "get" polio, after the vaccine came out, though it was made based on people who had been diagnosed with the "easier to get" symptoms.

I tell you...I hate conspiracy theories, but this swine flu stuff really has my radar pinging. Er, sonar? Does radar "ping"?


And no, I doubt WHO had to have any sort of reason to change a definition...
Yeah, I had heard that from several sources about the Polio definition changing. Sneaky, eh? :

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Old 08-04-2009, 11:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post
The WHO declared it a pandemic like a month ago? They recently changed their definition of pandemic to include ANY disease that is easy spread and is all over the world? I think?

I'm still trying to understand why they changed their definition. Anyone know the official word on the definition change?
They completely revised their 6 level alert system and definitions in 2005 because of the bird flu outbreak. It wasn't changed recently. I believe (and I read this on the WHO site, so it's there somewhere) that they did not have a "pre-pandemic" or "pandemic imminent" stage and they felt that the extra stage (stage 5) would help with getting governments to take notice without actually implementing their pandemic plans. I think the WHO assumed the bird flu was the next big one and with a mortality rate of 60% there was no need to define the necessary CFR (case fatality rate) for pandemic. I actually see no conspiracy here at all. They were already following their alert system... to change it right in the middle of a pandemic would have been worse. I think they got out the word sufficiently that pandemic doesn't mean high CFR.
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:22 AM
 
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They completely revised their 6 level alert system and definitions in 2005 because of the bird flu outbreak. It wasn't changed recently. I believe (and I read this on the WHO site, so it's there somewhere) that they did not have a "pre-pandemic" or "pandemic imminent" stage and they felt that the extra stage (stage 5) would help with getting governments to take notice without actually implementing their pandemic plans. I think the WHO assumed the bird flu was the next big one and with a mortality rate of 60% there was no need to define the necessary CFR (case fatality rate) for pandemic. I actually see no conspiracy here at all. They were already following their alert system... to change it right in the middle of a pandemic would have been worse. I think they got out the word sufficiently that pandemic doesn't mean high CFR.
I hope someone with a lot more time to search can clarify this because I know I read (and I can't remember where...but it wasn't on a discussion board, it was someplace official) that they did change it in March. The stages may have been changed in 2005, but the definition of a pandemic (dropping the high mortality and morbidity) changed very recently.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 08-04-2009, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post
They completely revised their 6 level alert system and definitions in 2005 because of the bird flu outbreak. It wasn't changed recently. I believe (and I read this on the WHO site, so it's there somewhere) that they did not have a "pre-pandemic" or "pandemic imminent" stage and they felt that the extra stage (stage 5) would help with getting governments to take notice without actually implementing their pandemic plans. I think the WHO assumed the bird flu was the next big one and with a mortality rate of 60% there was no need to define the necessary CFR (case fatality rate) for pandemic. I actually see no conspiracy here at all. They were already following their alert system... to change it right in the middle of a pandemic would have been worse. I think they got out the word sufficiently that pandemic doesn't mean high CFR.
Interesting.

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Old 08-04-2009, 01:27 PM
 
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this? no mention of dates though

Quote:
Jefferson: Don't you think there's something noteworthy about the fact that the WHO has changed its definition of pandemic? The old definition was a new virus, which went around quickly, for which you didn't have immunity, and which created a high morbidity and mortality rate. Now the last two have been dropped, and that's how swine flu has been categorized as a pandemic.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...637119,00.html
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Old 08-04-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
I hope someone with a lot more time to search can clarify this because I know I read (and I can't remember where...but it wasn't on a discussion board, it was someplace official) that they did change it in March. The stages may have been changed in 2005, but the definition of a pandemic (dropping the high mortality and morbidity) changed very recently.
Copied from the May 26th virtual press conference (I've been listening in on these and this is where I learned about the revision of the phases in 2005, which is why I didn't have a ready link). Sorry for the disjointed text... it was from a pdf. The original full transcript is here. Basically, they were damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had changed the phases just as the pandemic started then people would be yelling "conspiracy theory" as well. Any way they reacted wasn't going to satisfy the masses.

"Martin, Science Magazine: I am a little bit confused. I think that WHO has always made it
clear that epidemic could be mild and it did not have to be a devastating one. So why was
4
not the whole issue of severity never integrated into an alert system? Is that just an
oversight or it just did not occur to people? What was the thinking behind the system when
it was designed?

Dr Fukuda: The Phases themselves as planning tools have been around for quite a long
time. If you go back to the first Pandemic Planning Guidance which is several years ago,
and the second version which I think came out in 2005, and you look at the version on the
board now, you will see that they have evolved, and the way that they have evolved is that
they have become in many ways simpler. The earlier versions of the pandemic
preparedness Phases in fact incorporated a number of different concepts such as, the
evolution of the viruses, transmission, severity, and so on. Much of the feedback, when we
were going through the revision process was that the older pandemic Phases are too
confusing. They have too many concepts in them, too many ideas in them and that they
should be more straightforward and simpler and easier to apply. The most recent version of
the pandemic Phases meet those criteria. They are much easier, they are simpler to
understand, but like so many things, when you are really addressing a real situation as
opposed to having discussions, what we have found is that they probably do not adequately
capture all of the concerns of countries. And that is really what we are hearing now with the
comments that came in over the past few days or so. That is what we now are trying to
revisit and try to understand. How do we capture those things which are really important for
countries at this time?"
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post
Copied from the May 26th virtual press conference (I've been listening in on these and this is where I learned about the revision of the phases in 2005, which is why I didn't have a ready link). Sorry for the disjointed text... it was from a pdf. The original full transcript is here. Basically, they were damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had changed the phases just as the pandemic started then people would be yelling "conspiracy theory" as well. Any way they reacted wasn't going to satisfy the masses.

"Martin, Science Magazine: I am a little bit confused. I think that WHO has always made it
clear that epidemic could be mild and it did not have to be a devastating one. So why was
4
not the whole issue of severity never integrated into an alert system? Is that just an
oversight or it just did not occur to people? What was the thinking behind the system when
it was designed?

Dr Fukuda: The Phases themselves as planning tools have been around for quite a long
time. If you go back to the first Pandemic Planning Guidance which is several years ago,
and the second version which I think came out in 2005, and you look at the version on the
board now, you will see that they have evolved, and the way that they have evolved is that
they have become in many ways simpler. The earlier versions of the pandemic
preparedness Phases in fact incorporated a number of different concepts such as, the
evolution of the viruses, transmission, severity, and so on. Much of the feedback, when we
were going through the revision process was that the older pandemic Phases are too
confusing. They have too many concepts in them, too many ideas in them and that they
should be more straightforward and simpler and easier to apply. The most recent version of
the pandemic Phases meet those criteria. They are much easier, they are simpler to
understand, but like so many things, when you are really addressing a real situation as
opposed to having discussions, what we have found is that they probably do not adequately
capture all of the concerns of countries. And that is really what we are hearing now with the
comments that came in over the past few days or so. That is what we now are trying to
revisit and try to understand. How do we capture those things which are really important for
countries at this time?"
hmmm. I read that science magazine interview....I don't feel that it really clarified what I'm asking though. I KNOW I read somewhere about the recent changes. Oh how I wish I'd bookmarked it!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 08-04-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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hmmm. I read that science magazine interview....I don't feel that it really clarified what I'm asking though. I KNOW I read somewhere about the recent changes. Oh how I wish I'd bookmarked it!
Hmmmm.... I don't know how you could have read this science magazine interview... because this wasn't an interview published in a science magazine. This was a virtual update given by the WHO. This is from the transcript of the update, which you can also listen to. Dr. Fukuda was responding orally to a question that was asked during the Q&A by the press after they gave the update. It just so happens that the person asking the question is from a science magazine.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:57 PM
 
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This was what I was thinking of.... but yeah, no mention of dates

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Old 08-04-2009, 05:13 PM
 
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Hmmmm.... I don't know how you could have read this science magazine interview... because this wasn't an interview published in a science magazine. This was a virtual update given by the WHO. This is from the transcript of the update, which you can also listen to. Dr. Fukuda was responding orally to a question that was asked during the Q&A by the press after they gave the update. It just so happens that the person asking the question is from a science magazine.
Maybe Im getting confused. I know I read some interview that Dr. Fukuda was giving... I will try and find it and post...off to look

yes I was thinking of an ealier press conference that I had read (April 27th)
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/swine...2009_04_27.pdf

I just read the transcript from May you posted above. I do not see that the current definition of a pandemic and it's pahses has NOT been changed. To the contrary...this transcript leaves me with more questions.
Quote:
you go back to the first Pandemic Planning Guidance which is several years ago, and the second version which I think came out in 2005, and you look at the version on the board now, you will see that they have evolved, and the way that they have evolved is that they have become in many ways simpler.
so there was a original version which was revamped to a second version in 2005. It then goes on to imply that there is yet another, simpler version although it makes no mention of when this revision was done. If what he is referring to is the recent change then yep I'd agree it's a whole lot simpler...they dropped two of the major criteria!

ETA I just found this http://www.who.int/csr/disease/influ...WebVersion.pdf

looks like the latest revision was published in English in December 2008 and has been being "disseminated" in official UN languages since then. So not March, but not 2005 either

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Old 08-04-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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The virtual press briefing you link to isn't relevant to the topic. It just happens that the same reporter from Scientific Magazine posed a question in that briefing as well. I read the transcript and it doesn't even talk about phases as related to severity.

The question was about severity. It was the 2005 revision that eliminated severity from the equation. In December 2008 they changed the policy only so that the epidemic had to occur on 2 continents to be classified as a pandemic. The rest of the changes (and this is what your link shows) is that they changed their guidance information. I don't have time to find the links now, but if anyone wants to look them up they are somewhere at who.int concerning the changes to the phases. That's how I remember it and I listened in to the virtual press briefings from the beginning until they became weekly.

My point is that if the WHO make changes to their policy, they get criticized, if they don't they get criticized. Someone will find a conspiracy theory somewhere. I don't believe there is anything going on at all. I think that they gave information as it came to them and since this is all a new ball of wax for them, they, being human, can be confused and make mistakes. I certainly don't think that they made changes to manipulate this pandemic.
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Old 08-04-2009, 06:01 PM
 
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The virtual press briefing you link to isn't relevant to the topic. It just happens that the same reporter from Scientific Magazine posed a question in that briefing as well. I read the transcript and it doesn't even talk about phases as related to severity.

The question was about severity. It was the 2005 revision that eliminated severity from the equation. In December 2008 they changed the policy only so that the epidemic had to occur on 2 continents to be classified as a pandemic. The rest of the changes (and this is what your link shows) is that they changed their guidance information. I don't have time to find the links now, but if anyone wants to look them up they are somewhere at who.int concerning the changes to the phases. That's how I remember it and I listened in to the virtual press briefings from the beginning until they became weekly.

My point is that if the WHO make changes to their policy, they get criticized, if they don't they get criticized. Someone will find a conspiracy theory somewhere. I don't believe there is anything going on at all. I think that they gave information as it came to them and since this is all a new ball of wax for them, they, being human, can be confused and make mistakes. I certainly don't think that they made changes to manipulate this pandemic.
yes I know that..I had said I knew I had read something from Dr. Fukuda and this science mag guy...I was just posting where I had read it that's all.

I hope someone does have the links to the specific revisions and when they were made. I agree with what you said...they will get criticized whatever they do.....that's inevitable. That will happen whenever millions of people all have differing opinions on something!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 08-04-2009, 07:28 PM
 
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This Department of Health and Human Services document talks about the Pandemic Severity Index, which I have not seen mentioned here yet. The document is from Jan 2009, so it would not make sense that the definition of "pandemic" would have included information on morbidity/mortality at that time. Maybe the change is something that someone said somewhere, and it was just repeated until it became "fact"?

Quote:
The Pandemic Severity Index (PSI) defines categories of pandemic severity based on the proportion of individuals with pandemic illness who die (the “case fatality rate”). Pandemic severity will be determined soon after its initial outbreak based on surveillance of cases and their outcomes before large areas of the world are affected. Government organizations will use the PSI to determine how best to implement responses such as vaccination and community strategies to reduce disease transmission.
I would assume that the PSI has been set for H1N1? Although I haven't heard what the PSI is. That document also contains vaccination prioritization info.
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Old 08-04-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post
The document is from Jan 2009, so it would not make sense that the definition of "pandemic" would have included information on morbidity/mortality at that time. Maybe the change is something that someone said somewhere, and it was just repeated until it became "fact"?
Then again, the HHS is a US organization, and it is the WHO who manages the "pandemic" definition. So, maybe not.
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:19 PM
 
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GAH! Dr. Sears (who leans pro-choice on vax, but does recommend them) is even nervous about the possibility of mandatory swine flu vax??

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccine...s-way-what.asp
Quote:
Now, what you can fret about is whether or not the government will make the vaccine mandatory. Not “mandatory” in the sense that all vaccines are “required,” but parents can sign a waiver. I’m talking about mandatory in that Child Protective Services will take your kids away, or hold you back while they force the shot on your child. Yeah, that would be something to worry about. So, write your senator now and put in your two cents. OR, don’t even worry about it until they decide whether or not it’s mandatory, but by then it will be too late to make your voice heard.

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Old 08-04-2009, 11:26 PM
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GAH! Dr. Sears (who leans pro-choice on vax, but does recommend them) is even nervous about the possibility of mandatory swine flu vax??


:
But logistically they won't have enough vax to do this to everyone.

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Old 08-04-2009, 11:27 PM
 
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But logistically they won't have enough vax to do this to everyone.
I thought that's where the unapproved adjuvants come into play, so they can stretch it farther?

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Old 08-05-2009, 12:06 AM
 
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They already said there is *NO WAY* that they will have enough vaxes for EVERYONE... so I don't see the point in worrying about truely "mandatory" vaccines. Cause' its just not going to happen. There just aren't going to be enough of them.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:08 AM
 
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They might make it mandatory for children and pregnant women, though... like only part of the population. The most "at risk", you know?

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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They already said there is *NO WAY* that they will have enough vaxes for EVERYONE... so I don't see the point in worrying about truely "mandatory" vaccines. Cause' its just not going to happen. There just aren't going to be enough of them.
I am not sure about this... Greece has already said they are going to be mandatory.. So they obviously think they will have enough.. Like someone else mentioned, I think with using the unsafe adjuvant (squalene) they can make it stretch a lot farther I wonder what they are going to do if alot of people are refusing the vaccine though...
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Old 08-05-2009, 09:59 AM
 
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That Greece thing is a misconception brought on by horrible articles/horrible translation. In that same press conference, it was made clear that vaccines cannot be forced by law and that applications will be taken and medical exams given before any vaccination.

The AP mentioned this in their article that caused all this hysteria concerning Greece but they made it an afterthought blurb.

Quote:
The minister explained that vaccination cannot be made obligatory by law, and therefore applications for inoculation will need to be filled out. He added that population groups would be prioritized for vaccination, beginning with medical and nursing staff.

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/sh...8128&service=6

this report also says the same thing but you will need to run it through a translator:
http://www.tovima.gr/default.asp?pid...&dt=02/08/2009

Quote:
The decision of the government for universal vaccination respect the right of all be vaccinated, but as stated by the Minister of Health is no question of compulsory vaccination. They will then be invited to give their consent for the vaccination by signing a document which will indicate, among other things, that they know that «there is no safe medical practice, including vaccination í».

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