H1N1/Swine Flu Vax - September '09 - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 05:06 PM
 
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Just because someone is referenced on MDC a lot doesn't make it legit. There are a lot of people here who really abide by what Mercola says, and a lot who think he's a quack. (I'm in the halfway camp, by the way... I read what he has to say, and then look for corroborating info elsewhere...)
While this is true...most people who speak out against allopathic medicine in general are labeled quacks. He is no different.
Here is some info about Dr. Mercola
https://www.idfpr.com/Applications/P...leDetails.aspx
https://www.idfpr.com/Applications/P...leDetails.aspx

He is a professional in good standing and has been in practice for 26 years and operates a successful wellness clinic. I think if he was a true crackpot he wouldn't be as successful as he is.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#62 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 05:18 PM
 
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I think if he was a true crackpot he wouldn't be as successful as he is.
I have no thoughts on him either way, but success is not a good indication of levels of quackery IMHO.
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#63 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 05:24 PM
 
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yeah look at the number of people who go to the Griers to get their kids autistic kids injected with lupron. They are pretty successful, doesn't make them reliable.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#64 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 09:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by staceychev View Post
Just because someone is referenced on MDC a lot doesn't make it legit. There are a lot of people here who really abide by what Mercola says, and a lot who think he's a quack. (I'm in the halfway camp, by the way... I read what he has to say, and then look for corroborating info elsewhere...)
The e-mails that I receive weekly from mercola.com generally summarize the information and give two to three sources right underneath it. I will always look at the sources and gather collaborating info elsewhere also. Dr. Mercola then generally gives his opinion underneath the sources. Considering he is a certified D.O. in good-standing, I tend to consider highly his opinions given all his credentials.

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While this is true...most people who speak out against allopathic medicine in general are labeled quacks. He is no different.
Here is some info about Dr. Mercola
https://www.idfpr.com/Applications/P...leDetails.aspx
https://www.idfpr.com/Applications/P...leDetails.aspx

He is a professional in good standing and has been in practice for 26 years and operates a successful wellness clinic. I think if he was a true crackpot he wouldn't be as successful as he is.
:

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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
yeah look at the number of people who go to the Griers to get their kids autistic kids injected with lupron. They are pretty successful, doesn't make them reliable.
just curious as to what your definition of reliable is...?

looks like it's kinda getting off the topic of the H1N1 vax don't want to go there...

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#65 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 09:32 PM
 
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That was my attempt to not break the name calling rule; but it occurs to me that "quack" might not fit in that rule

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#66 of 326 Old 09-10-2009, 09:59 PM
 
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I'm trying to phase this so it doesn't get censored, but Mercola is too sensationalistic for his information regarding H1N1 to be reliable for me. I don't consider him to be a credible source for h1n1 information and information regarding the vaccine.

And that he doesn't distinguish between the vaccines in Europe having adjuvant and such that will only be used in the US in case of EUA, but makes it seem like the same vaccine will be used around the world, is professionally dangerous. It seems like a simple enough distinction, I've made it without being an M.D.

And the bit about the British agency collecting information from neurologists, well that is what public health agencies do. They collect data and statistics. They're doing that in this case. But it is nothing to be alarmist about.


Again, the H1N1 vaccine in the United States is the same flu vaccine given to hundreds of thousands of folks every year--with the exception that it has the H1N1 strain, instead of the projected seasonal flu.

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#67 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 12:10 AM
 
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I'm trying to phase this so it doesn't get censored, but Mercola is too sensationalistic for his information regarding H1N1 to be reliable for me. I don't consider him to be a credible source for h1n1 information and information regarding the vaccine.

And that he doesn't distinguish between the vaccines in Europe having adjuvant and such that will only be used in the US in case of EUA, but makes it seem like the same vaccine will be used around the world, is professionally dangerous. It seems like a simple enough distinction, I've made it without being an M.D.

And the bit about the British agency collecting information from neurologists, well that is what public health agencies do. They collect data and statistics. They're doing that in this case. But it is nothing to be alarmist about.


Again, the H1N1 vaccine in the United States is the same flu vaccine given to hundreds of thousands of folks every year--with the exception that it has the H1N1 strain, instead of the projected seasonal flu.

Thanks for that info. I do hope that its the same as the regular flu shot since my husband might have to get it being in the military.. With so much information out there its hard to know what is true and whats not. I do know that anthrax vaccines (that alot of active duty military had to get) were found to contain squalene and it also showed up in the blood of the military members who received it.. It wasnt supposed to contain it obviously since it is not legal for use in the US..The government has had to pay out for injuries from the vaccine.. That is why I have a hard time believing it when they say that the vaccines with squalene definitely wont be used in the US...
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#68 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 03:14 AM
 
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/..._med_swine_flu

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Good news in the world's flu fight: One dose of the new swine flu vaccine looks strong enough to protect adults — and can spark protection within 10 days of the shot...

Thursday's swine flu vaccine reports center on adults; studies in children aren't finished yet.

One dose means tight supplies of H1N1 vaccine won't be stretched so badly after all. The U.S. has ordered 195 million doses, based on the hope that 15 micrograms was indeed the right dose. Had it taken twice that dose, or two shots apiece, half as many people could have received the vaccine.
On the one hand, I see this as good news (for those who are willing to be guinea pigs anyway - better one shot than two) ... on the other hand, they are going to end up with a lot of doses (195 million) ... so what's going to happen (to the rest of the shots) when only 50 or 100 million people line up for their shots? There's going to be an awful lot of leftovers...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#69 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 07:11 AM
 
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Has anyone seen the news about the bill in MA regarding forced vaccination including hefty fines and jail time for those refusing? This is one of quite a few sites I've seen reporting this:
http://www.naturalnews.com/026934_he...uarantine.html
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#70 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 01:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/..._med_swine_flu



On the one hand, I see this as good news (for those who are willing to be guinea pigs anyway - better one shot than two) ... on the other hand, they are going to end up with a lot of doses (195 million) ... so what's going to happen (to the rest of the shots) when only 50 or 100 million people line up for their shots? There's going to be an awful lot of leftovers...
Well, I'm sure they'll find use for them, possibly in other countries that can't afford to contract with companies to produce the vaccine for their own population.

And there are probably leftover vaccines every year. They recommend that so many people get it, make that much, and then maybe 1/2 the people actually get the flu shot. Welcome to the world of public health.

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#71 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 01:35 PM
 
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Has anyone seen the news about the bill in MA regarding forced vaccination including hefty fines and jail time for those refusing? This is one of quite a few sites I've seen reporting this:
http://www.naturalnews.com/026934_he...uarantine.html
If they declare a state of emergency, of course they can enter your house/order you out. Think hurricane Katrina situation caused by pandemic flu.

This isn't just on any old day, it is if a state of emergency is declared--something that public officials aren't going to do unless there really is an emergency, IMHO, otherwise they undermine all credibility.

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#72 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 01:45 PM
 
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Thanks for that info. I do hope that its the same as the regular flu shot since my husband might have to get it being in the military.. With so much information out there its hard to know what is true and whats not. I do know that anthrax vaccines (that alot of active duty military had to get) were found to contain squalene and it also showed up in the blood of the military members who received it.. It wasnt supposed to contain it obviously since it is not legal for use in the US..The government has had to pay out for injuries from the vaccine.. That is why I have a hard time believing it when they say that the vaccines with squalene definitely wont be used in the US...
they could only use vaccines with squalene if a state of emergency is declared, under an EUA on the general population. I'm not certain about military professionals, but if I were in a job that would require the vaccine, the sooner you get it the more likely you are to not get the doses with squalene (which they can only use if it hits the fan).

But squalene is used in other countries, and I wonder if they track the adverse effect there? It would be interesting to find out more. The little bit I have read has stated that there is no adverse effects of flu vaccine with squalene in it in Europe (this is the regular old flu shot, not the H1N1).

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#73 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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what do you guys think of this the youtube vidio toward the end of the page...

http://www.stopfascism.com/profiles/...fall-to-a-town

It has me worried. :
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#74 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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they could only use vaccines with squalene if a state of emergency is declared, under an EUA on the general population. I'm not certain about military professionals, but if I were in a job that would require the vaccine, the sooner you get it the more likely you are to not get the doses with squalene (which they can only use if it hits the fan).

But squalene is used in other countries, and I wonder if they track the adverse effect there? It would be interesting to find out more. The little bit I have read has stated that there is no adverse effects of flu vaccine with squalene in it in Europe (this is the regular old flu shot, not the H1N1).
There is GOBS of scientific evidence that Squalene induces autoimmunity.
I highly reccommend everyone read "Vaccine A" by Gary Matsumoto. I have learned more about squalene than I ever wanted to know and am disgusted. The fact that it is licensed in other countries doesn't make it safe. Drugs and substances are licensed all around the world everday DESPITE evidence that they are harmful. It happens here in the US all the time. Just as the FDA doesn't watch out for public health, the regulatory bodies in other countries are just as inept.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#75 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 04:59 PM
 
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what do you guys think of this the youtube vidio toward the end of the page...

http://www.stopfascism.com/profiles/...fall-to-a-town

It has me worried. :
The first link he has on the page, confirms exactly what I have been finding about vaccines.

And for what its worth, he is spot on, with everything that he remarks on in the first video!

By the way, I am not one bit shocked by the "accidents".
These things have happened all throughout history for various reasons.

How we are going to deal with it ourselves is yet to be determined......

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#76 of 326 Old 09-11-2009, 08:07 PM
 
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Just read two articles from my local (in NC) online news feed: a local hospital, Moses Cone Health System is requiring ALL employees/volunteers, whether they come into contact with patients or not, to get the seasonal flu vax. No word on whether they'll require the H1N1, but come on...of course they will.

Then, a high school football team about 40 minutes away has to cancel tonight's game b/c 16 players/coaches have the flu...6 are confirmed H1N1. Big friggin deal! They are trying to get people all worked up as if there's some awful cancer cluster going around, and you know what? Most likely it's going to work! So a few healthy, robust teen athletes stay home this weekend and sleep it off. Big deal. Of course, all of this hub-bub is going to make them more likely to require vaxes for everyone.

I'm so disgusted in general. Our personal freedoms are being trampled all for a "disease" that for most people is an inconvenience at worst. Ridiculous.
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That's all fine and well, carmel23, but look at the latest update from the WHO.
http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_09_11/en/index.html

In the 'Americas' (which I realize covers a lot of countries), they're claiming there have been 120,653 cases so far with 2,467 deaths. And according to the report, the number of cases in the US are increasing. A 2% death rate may not seem like much of anything, but they can easily say, 'What if 2% of the US population died?' Then the figure seems a lot worse.

They keep blowing this issue out of proportion. Several news sites are reporting that the majority of the US public and even medical staff won't simply roll up their sleeves. Then they try to get this bill passed. The way I see it, they're trying really hard to shove this vaccine down our throats. It makes one think. That's all.
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How hard is it to check PubMed? There are studies on there confirming Squalene's association with Autoimmunity and Gulf War Syndrome. The US has ordered PLENTY of vaccines with Squalene. It is unclear if Novartis and Baxter will be producing any vaccines without it, and they are definitely in the mix for H1N1 vaccine providers. Squalene is absolutely a valid and present concern.

Thimerisol is also a valid concern. NO two vaccines are ever created exactly the same, each and every formula is different. It does not make scientific sense to say this is the same as the annual flu shot. Which one, kwim? There are at least 5 different formulas being manufactured.
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#79 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 03:01 AM
 
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Just read two articles from my local (in NC) online news feed: a local hospital, Moses Cone Health System is requiring ALL employees/volunteers, whether they come into contact with patients or not, to get the seasonal flu vax. No word on whether they'll require the H1N1, but come on...of course they will.

Then, a high school football team about 40 minutes away has to cancel tonight's game b/c 16 players/coaches have the flu...6 are confirmed H1N1. Big friggin deal! They are trying to get people all worked up as if there's some awful cancer cluster going around, and you know what? Most likely it's going to work! So a few healthy, robust teen athletes stay home this weekend and sleep it off. Big deal. Of course, all of this hub-bub is going to make them more likely to require vaxes for everyone.

I'm so disgusted in general. Our personal freedoms are being trampled all for a "disease" that for most people is an inconvenience at worst. Ridiculous.
Thats the thing that makes no sense to me. Millions of people are going to have already been exposed to (and thus acquire natural, superior immunity) and recover from swine flu by the time the vaccine comes out. They're not going to need the vaccine, because they were already exposed and already have immunity!

Are they going to be doing testing this October to see who has natural antibodies and who doesn't prior to giving the shot? Of course not! I haven't heard one word about this from anyone.

As far as personal freedoms, I agree its ridiculous, but if all those hospital employees would just say NO they could make a difference. There is already a shortage of health care workers in many areas, they only try to enforce stupid laws because they think they can get away with it. I'd get a lawyer or go somewhere else if I had to. That's not only ridiculous its unacceptable.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#80 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 10:33 AM
 
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As far as personal freedoms, I agree its ridiculous, but if all those hospital employees would just say NO they could make a difference. There is already a shortage of health care workers in many areas, they only try to enforce stupid laws because they think they can get away with it. I'd get a lawyer or go somewhere else if I had to. That's not only ridiculous its unacceptable.

I TOTALLY agree with you, but my instinct is that not a large enough group will rebel. You'll have workers who comply simply b/c they can't afford to risk losing the income, and then those who either: trust the gov't that vaxes are good for them, or the hypochondriac types (like my folks lol) who think that every thing is a life threatening disease, and those who just have accepted all of the hype and fear. I hope I am wrong.
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#81 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 11:50 AM
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Thats the thing that makes no sense to me. Millions of people are going to have already been exposed to (and thus acquire natural, superior immunity) and recover from swine flu by the time the vaccine comes out. They're not going to need the vaccine, because they were already exposed and already have immunity!

Are they going to be doing testing this October to see who has natural antibodies and who doesn't prior to giving the shot? Of course not! I haven't heard one word about this from anyone.
My thoughts exactly.

This article, in fact, says that the vax will probably miss the swine flu peak:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/12/us...tml?ref=health


So, my experience in taking my sick son to the doc a few weeks ago:

Me: "Should I get him tested for swine flu?"

Doc: "Well, it's an uncomfortable test because we have to put a swab way up his nose. And if this is the swine flu, he'll recover from it quickly. But don't worry; you can get him vaxed for it in the fall."

Me: "Why would I vax him for it when 1) this might be it already, and 2) you just said he'd recover easily from it!"

Doc: "Well........" (no good answer)

Ultimately I didn't want to put him through the discomfort of the test, so I just assumed he had it.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#82 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 12:38 PM
 
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Are they going to be doing testing this October to see who has natural antibodies and who doesn't prior to giving the shot? Of course not! I haven't heard one word about this from anyone.
I completely agree. Additionally, I recently read that 98% of the flu strains going around right now are swine. So we are being exposed to swine flu a lot on a daily basis. Even if you don't come down with actual symptoms of swine flu, you could have a subclinical infection and still produce the antibodies against it. I wouldn't get the swine flu shot at all, but I especially would not even consider getting the swine flu shot without having my titers checked first to see if I already have been exposed.
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#83 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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I know that our whole family had it last February. We were all down and out for a few days...during those days it felt like my neck was going to pop off my head but that was the worst of it. Never saw a doctor and we are all still alive. Swine flu is the least of my worries...my big worry is the shot...

My question to all of us including myself is what will we do if it is forced on us? Can we self shield by staying in our houses or will it come to military coming into your home and making you take it? It all sounds so far fetched but I don’t put anything past the government anymore. Then, if it came to that and you still refused if you’re arrested or put into the "camps" ive been reading about...what happens to your kids. Do they become wards of the state and have the vax anyway? Along with who knows what else. Id like to find myself an island and just run away personally. This whole situation scares that crud out of me.
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#84 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 05:53 PM
 
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Then, if it came to that and you still refused if you’re arrested or put into the "camps" ive been reading about...what happens to your kids. Do they become wards of the state and have the vax anyway? Along with who knows what else. Id like to find myself an island and just run away personally. This whole situation scares that crud out of me.
Its happened in many other countries before. Different reasons, yes, but they need them young. Away from the influence of represive parents.
History always repeats itself.

Maybe its just as well that I have not been able to carry a baby to full term.
Its an awful thing to think, but it may save me a great deal of grief someday.

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#85 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 06:42 PM
 
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And the bit about the British agency collecting information from neurologists, well that is what public health agencies do. They collect data and statistics. They're doing that in this case. But it is nothing to be alarmist about.
The concern about this is that this was sent to neurologists ditectly; not the doctors who would administer the vax. It was leaked to the media. In the UK they are only doing 5 day safety trials so there is a lot of mistrust on the vax and the side effects. The fact that this memo was secetly going around to only certain types of doctors added to the mistrust.

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If they declare a state of emergency, of course they can enter your house/order you out. Think hurricane Katrina situation caused by pandemic flu.

This isn't just on any old day, it is if a state of emergency is declared--something that public officials aren't going to do unless there really is an emergency, IMHO, otherwise they undermine all credibility.
This was actually already declared in several states when the Swin Flu appeared last spring. I know for a fact that CA declared a state of emergency in the spring.
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#86 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 07:22 PM
 
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I question this doctor's suggestion:

he writes, "It's not conventional to suggest astragalus, echinacea, elderberry and vitamin C. Adequate vitamin D levels are crucial, too."

Implying that elderberry and echinacea would be good things to take to prevent/or if one aquired h1n1. But I've read that these things can set the body off on a cytokine storm:

Eur Cytokine Netw. 2001 Apr-Jun;12(2):290-6.

The effect of Sambucol, a black elderberry-based, natural product, on the production of human cytokines: I. Inflammatory cytokines.Barak V, Halperin T, Kalickman I.

Immunology Laboratory for Tumor Diagnosis, Department of Oncology, Hadassah University Hospital, Jerusalem, Israel.

"... The present study aimed to assess the effect of Sambucol products on the healthy immune system - namely, its effect on cytokine production. The production of inflammatory cytokines was tested using blood - derived monocytes from 12 healthy human donors. Adherent monocytes were separated from PBL and incubated with different Sambucol preparations i.e., Sambucol Elderberry Extract, Sambucol Black Elderberry Syrup, Sambucol Immune System and Sambucol for Kids. Production of inflammatory cytokines (IL-1 beta, TNF-alpha, IL-6, IL-8) was significantly increased, mostly by the Sambucol Black Elderberry Extract (2-45 fold), as compared to LPS, a known monocyte activator (3.6-10.7 fold). The most striking increase was noted in TNF-alpha production (44.9 fold). We conclude from this study that, in addition to its antiviral properties, Sambucol Elderberry Extract and its formulations activate the healthy immune system by increasing inflammatory cytokine production...."
The info about elderberry and echinechea is confusing. I have also read these things may set off a cytokine storm, but I have also read studies that they may be beneficial in HINI infections - here are a couple:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19682714

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409931

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#87 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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I question this doctor's suggestion:

he writes, "It's not conventional to suggest astragalus, echinacea, elderberry and vitamin C. Adequate vitamin D levels are crucial, too."

Implying that elderberry and echinacea would be good things to take to prevent/or if one aquired h1n1. But I've read that these things can set the body off on a cytokine storm:

Eur Cytokine Netw. 2001 Apr-Jun;12(2):290-6.

The effect of Sambucol, a black elderberry-based, natural product, on the production of human cytokines: I. Inflammatory cytokines.Barak V, Halperin T, Kalickman I.

Immunology Laboratory for Tumor Diagnosis, Department of Oncology, Hadassah University Hospital, Jerusalem, Israel.

"... The present study aimed to assess the effect of Sambucol products on the healthy immune system - namely, its effect on cytokine production. The production of inflammatory cytokines was tested using blood - derived monocytes from 12 healthy human donors. Adherent monocytes were separated from PBL and incubated with different Sambucol preparations i.e., Sambucol Elderberry Extract, Sambucol Black Elderberry Syrup, Sambucol Immune System and Sambucol for Kids. Production of inflammatory cytokines (IL-1 beta, TNF-alpha, IL-6, IL-8) was significantly increased, mostly by the Sambucol Black Elderberry Extract (2-45 fold), as compared to LPS, a known monocyte activator (3.6-10.7 fold). The most striking increase was noted in TNF-alpha production (44.9 fold). We conclude from this study that, in addition to its antiviral properties, Sambucol Elderberry Extract and its formulations activate the healthy immune system by increasing inflammatory cytokine production...."

I trust this herbalist, and here's what she has to say about Elderberry and H1N1:
http://bearmedicineherbals.com/?p=633

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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#88 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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My question to all of us including myself is what will we do if it is forced on us? Can we self shield by staying in our houses or will it come to military coming into your home and making you take it? It all sounds so far fetched but I don’t put anything past the government anymore. Then, if it came to that and you still refused if you’re arrested or put into the "camps" ive been reading about...what happens to your kids. Do they become wards of the state and have the vax anyway? Along with who knows what else.
Although I think that this scenario is unlikely at this point, I DO NOT TRUST the gov't even 1%, and this does scare me. My dh says, "They'll have to put a f-ing bullet in my head before they get a needle in my arm." However, if the scenario that you suggest plays out, I would cave in before I would let my kids be taken away and vaxed anyway. Maybe I'm a coward...I would do anything up until that point: use my exemption, homeschool my kids, stay in quarantine, whatever...but if it came to them being taken away, I just couldn't live with that.

On a side note, my dh has been quite distrustful of the gov't, esp. in the last 10 years or so, thinking they totally overstep their powers, and I always used to roll my eyes and think he was overreacting, but it just blows me away that they might use literal physical force to make people submit to vaccinations. It's like something out of a bad sci-fi movie.
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#89 of 326 Old 09-12-2009, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Please continue discussion pertaining to prevention/treatment other than vaccines (such as vitamin D, elderberry etc.) in our Health & Healing forum. This thread is intended specifically for vaccine related discussion. Thanks!
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#90 of 326 Old 09-13-2009, 12:33 AM
 
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I completely agree. Additionally, I recently read that 98% of the flu strains going around right now are swine. So we are being exposed to swine flu a lot on a daily basis. Even if you don't come down with actual symptoms of swine flu, you could have a subclinical infection and still produce the antibodies against it. I wouldn't get the swine flu shot at all, but I especially would not even consider getting the swine flu shot without having my titers checked first to see if I already have been exposed.
We can only people enough people will realize this and refuse the vaccine!!!
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