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#1 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A close friend went against her gut today and allowed her son's pediatrician scare her into getting the flumist for him at his appointment this afternoon. She'd originally just gone in for a rash type thing on his arm and was basically scared into getting either the flu shot or the flumist. She was adamantly against the shot, but was talked into getting the other.

The big problem is that now he is very tired and achey and generally feels unwell, whereas prior to the mist, he was just fine. Is this common or normal? She put in a call back to the pediatrician and plans to take him back in.

Another question.. since this is a live virus, am I right that it sheds? She has 3 other children at home, along with 3 adults including herself. Will they have a chance of getting the flu from this?

Wife and mother to 2 kiddos - 17 yr old DS jammin.gifand 13 yr old DD energy.gif.. and a cat that thinks he's a dog dizzy.gif
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#2 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 05:34 PM
 
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Another question.. since this is a live virus, am I right that it sheds? She has 3 other children at home, along with 3 adults including herself. Will they have a chance of getting the flu from this?
Yes.

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#3 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post
Yes.
Nice.. I thought so and I did tell her that, but said that I would research it a bit to verify it for her since she isn't able to get online at the moment. Apparently, the doctor forgot to tell her that part.

I also have two of the four kids at my house right now while she figures out what's going on.

Does anyone know right off hand how long the mist sheds for?

Wife and mother to 2 kiddos - 17 yr old DS jammin.gifand 13 yr old DD energy.gif.. and a cat that thinks he's a dog dizzy.gif
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#4 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 06:49 PM
 
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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5213a1.htm

Quote:
Because LAIV contains live influenza viruses, a potential exists for transmission of these viruses from vaccinees to other persons. Vaccinated immunocompetent children can shed vaccine viruses for <3 weeks (6). One unpublished study in a child care center setting assessed transmissibility of vaccine viruses from 98 vaccinated to 99 unvaccinated subjects, all aged 8--36 months. Eighty percent of vaccine recipients shed >1 virus strain, with a mean of 7.6 days duration (17). One influenza type B isolate was recovered from a placebo recipient and was confirmed to be vaccine-type virus. The estimated probability of acquiring vaccine virus after close contact with a single LAIV recipient was 0.58%--2.4%. The type B isolate retained the cold-adapted, temperature-sensitive, attenuated phenotype, and it possessed the same genetic sequence as a virus shed from a vaccine recipient in the same children's play group.
I believe the same study said it was observed to shed up to 21 days.

Side effects listed:

Quote:
Signs and symptoms reported more often among vaccine recipients than placebo recipients included runny nose or nasal congestion (20%--75%), headache (2%--46%), fever (0%--26%), and vomiting (3%--13%), abdominal pain (2%), and myalgias (0%--21%) (7,12,14,20--22). These symptoms were associated more often with the first dose and were self-limited. In a subset of healthy children aged 60--71 months from one clinical trial (8,9), certain signs and symptoms were reported more often among LAIV recipients after the first dose (n = 214) than placebo recipients (n = 95) (e.g., runny nose, 48.1% versus 44.2%; headache, 17.8% versus 11.6%; vomiting, 4.7% versus 3.2%; myalgias, 6.1% versus 4.2%), but these differences were not statistically significant. Unpublished data from a study including subjects aged 1--17 years indicated an increase in asthma or reactive airways disease in the subset aged 12--59 months. Because of this, LAIV is not approved for use among children aged <60 months (see Recommendations for Using Live, Attenuated Influenza Vaccine).
ETA:
Notice that this same page says:

Quote:
No data are available assessing the risk for transmission of LAIV from vaccine recipients to immunosuppressed contacts
Isn't it funny that parents are pressured (or feel ethically bound) to vaccinate because they might get a disease that spreads to an immunosuppressed contact, yet this risk goes completely unstudied with a live attenuated influenza vaccine? What if little Johnny who gets FluMist sneezes on immunosuppressed little Billy?

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#5 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for that information, Serenitii.. I greatly appreciate it.
I hope the kiddo is ok.. she just got back from the doctor with him. She's P*SSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Her doctor just checked his vitals, said he was fine, watch him overnight, and that he probably just picked up a virus today. Nope.. couldn't POSSIBLY be the vaccine.

He's very very fatigued and feeling terrible right now.

Wife and mother to 2 kiddos - 17 yr old DS jammin.gifand 13 yr old DD energy.gif.. and a cat that thinks he's a dog dizzy.gif
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#6 of 19 Old 09-15-2009, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by serenitii View Post
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5213a1.htm



I believe the same study said it was observed to shed up to 21 days.

Side effects listed:



ETA:
Notice that this same page says:



Isn't it funny that parents are pressured (or feel ethically bound) to vaccinate because they might get a disease that spreads to an immunosuppressed contact, yet this risk goes completely unstudied with a live attenuated influenza vaccine? What if little Johnny who gets FluMist sneezes on immunosuppressed little Billy?
This information/study is from 2003. Surely some things have changed in the last 6 years.....They say it shouldn't be given to children less than 5, but new recommendations say anyone over 2. Do we have any newer information??
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#7 of 19 Old 09-16-2009, 02:50 AM
 
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Same thing happened to my son a few years ago (before we stopped vaxing). He became very ill a day or so after getting FluMist and was sick for a week. I asked the Dr. if his illness could be related to the vaccine, and he told me that he probably just picked something up from the waiting room. He also said that one cannot get the flu from Flu-Mist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
Thank you so much for that information, Serenitii.. I greatly appreciate it.
I hope the kiddo is ok.. she just got back from the doctor with him. She's P*SSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Her doctor just checked his vitals, said he was fine, watch him overnight, and that he probably just picked up a virus today. Nope.. couldn't POSSIBLY be the vaccine.

He's very very fatigued and feeling terrible right now.
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#8 of 19 Old 09-16-2009, 03:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cocoabean8 View Post
This information/study is from 2003. Surely some things have changed in the last 6 years.....They say it shouldn't be given to children less than 5, but new recommendations say anyone over 2. Do we have any newer information??
This information stands but they expanded use based on an additional study (see below.) It appears to me that the study confirmed some of the reservations about the use of FluMist in kids that young, but they made it the responsibility of clinicians to filter out high risk children with asthma (yet, they readily admit that they don't fully understand what the risks are in children this young) All questionable, if you ask me.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5646a4.htm

Quote:
an elevated risk for asthma events (RR = 4.06, CI = 1.29--17.86) was noted among 728 children aged 18--35 months who received FluMist;
Quote:
Although FDA licensure of FluMist excluded children aged 2--4 years with a history of asthma or recurrent wheezing, the precise risk, if any, of wheezing caused by FluMist among these children is unknown because experience with FluMist among these young children is limited.
Quote:
Clinicians and immunization programs should screen for possible reactive airways diseases when considering use of FluMist for children aged 2--4 years, and should avoid use of this vaccine in children with asthma or a recent wheezing episode. Health-care providers should consult the medical record, when available, to identify children aged 2--4 years with asthma or recurrent wheezing that might indicate asthma. In addition, to identify children who might be at greater risk for asthma and possibly at increased risk for wheezing after receiving LAIV, parents or caregivers of children aged 2--4 years should be asked: "In the past 12 months, has a health-care provider ever told you that your child had wheezing or asthma?" Children whose parents or caregivers answer "yes" to this question and children who have asthma or who had a wheezing episode noted in the medical record within the past 12 months, should not receive FluMist. TIV is available for use in children with asthma or possible reactive airways diseases.
ETA: FluMist is contraindicated for many people. What if one of those people goes to the grocery store and stands in line with someone who received FluMist and picks up the vaccine virus? If it is unethical to skip a vaccine because I might give an at-risk person an illness, how ethical is it to give a vaccine that might give a at-risk person an illness?

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#9 of 19 Old 09-16-2009, 04:13 AM
 
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Here is what the manufacturer says about "side effects"

http://www.flumist.com/Flumist-Side-Effects.aspx


Quote:
The most common side effects of FluMist in children and adults included runny nose or nasal congestion, sore throat, and fever.

Other side effects included chills, cough, decreased activity, decreased appetite, headaches, irritability, muscle aches, and tiredness/weakness.

A vaccine can possibly cause serious problems.

For a full list of side effects, please read the Product Information [PDF, 103KB, 4 Pages] for FluMist.
I find it really creepy that the side effects are the very same symptoms one would get if uh... one came down with the flu! The fact they refuse to accept that someone DID indeed get sick (with "flu-like symptoms") from the vaccine is mind-boggling to me. (especially since its even acknowledged by the manufacturer!) Oh yeah - must have picked up a bug in the office - couldn't have possibly been from the live virus (weakened) that we just sprayed up your nose! Now what would make you think that? Duh!!!

DO let us know if the siblings get sick, if you get sick etc,... I suspect the big boom in swine flu cases we are about to see in October/November is going to result from none other than the vaccine shedding, of course.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#10 of 19 Old 09-16-2009, 05:20 AM
 
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I was about to post about the listed side effects. It is very strange that those are listed side effects, but somehow it's coincidental when someone experiences those side effects. I guess not all doctors read the product insert. At least some parents are.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#11 of 19 Old 09-16-2009, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RetroMom View Post
Same thing happened to my son a few years ago (before we stopped vaxing). He became very ill a day or so after getting FluMist and was sick for a week. I asked the Dr. if his illness could be related to the vaccine, and he told me that he probably just picked something up from the waiting room. He also said that one cannot get the flu from Flu-Mist.
Why do doctors use that excuse? The whole "picked up a virus in the office" thing? I don't know how fast airborne viruses typically work (as in, from contracting the virus from someone else to the first symptom of illness), but do they typically completely take down a previously perfectly fine feeling child in a matter of a couple hours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenitii View Post
This information stands but they expanded use based on an additional study (see below.) It appears to me that the study confirmed some of the reservations about the use of FluMist in kids that young, but they made it the responsibility of clinicians to filter out high risk children with asthma (yet, they readily admit that they don't fully understand what the risks are in children this young) All questionable, if you ask me.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5646a4.htm


ETA: FluMist is contraindicated for many people. What if one of those people goes to the grocery store and stands in line with someone who received FluMist and picks up the vaccine virus? If it is unethical to skip a vaccine because I might give an at-risk person an illness, how ethical is it to give a vaccine that might give a at-risk person an illness?
Bolding mine -
My guess is it's because they feel that it's the unvaccinated person's fault for not getting the vaccine to prevent them getting sick in the first place.

The pediatrician did verify with my friend that her son didn't have asthma (this was not her usual doctor), which he doesn't. But, she does, along with a few other medical issues.. so, she's a little concerned about getting ill (but not concerned enough to get a shot for herself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
Here is what the manufacturer says about "side effects"

http://www.flumist.com/Flumist-Side-Effects.aspx


I find it really creepy that the side effects are the very same symptoms one would get if uh... one came down with the flu! The fact they refuse to accept that someone DID indeed get sick (with "flu-like symptoms") from the vaccine is mind-boggling to me. (especially since its even acknowledged by the manufacturer!) Oh yeah - must have picked up a bug in the office - couldn't have possibly been from the live virus (weakened) that we just sprayed up your nose! Now what would make you think that? Duh!!!

DO let us know if the siblings get sick, if you get sick etc,... I suspect the big boom in swine flu cases we are about to see in October/November is going to result from none other than the vaccine shedding, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
I was about to post about the listed side effects. It is very strange that those are listed side effects, but somehow it's coincidental when someone experiences those side effects. I guess not all doctors read the product insert. At least some parents are.
Bolding mine -
YES!!! I read the same site this morning! The side effects sound exactly like the flu to me, too.. yet, even though he has the same symptoms, they couldn't possibly be from the vaccine. Do the doctors really feel that parents will never find accurate information OR are they that clueless about what they're giving people?

I guess the ped. was very condescending to her when she asked him about his symptoms, which really isn't a very good idea. She's not letting this drop.

I will talk to her again sometime this morning and get an update on him and I will definitely let you know if any of us do get sick.

Thank you so much for your input!

Wife and mother to 2 kiddos - 17 yr old DS jammin.gifand 13 yr old DD energy.gif.. and a cat that thinks he's a dog dizzy.gif
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#12 of 19 Old 10-28-2012, 05:34 AM
 
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Without reproducing the entire patient physician information form let me try to clarify a couple points. Flumist will not cause the flu. ( actually the odds are 1 on 1 quintrillion). However, it can make you or your child feel crummy for a few days with some similar symptoms that are generally minimal, but can be like a really mild case of the flu. Mild flu doesn't mean you feel we'll, you can actually feel kind of lousy - but that would be very mild for the flu. Since the flu kills an estimated 40,000 people on this country a year ( more some years and less in others like last year) most people think the chance for side effects outweighs the risk for actually contracting the flu. Plus if many people get vaccinated you decrease the risk a flu outbreak spreading to effect immunocompromised kids who can't get vaccinated. So your sense of personal versus social responsibility comes into play and that can make for tough decisions.

About the less than 60 month thing. Kids less than 5 with any wheeze or anyone with asthma should not receive the flumist. Kids over 2 without wheeze or asthma may recei e the vaccine. FYI - your pediatrician is always trying to give you the best advice for your kids. If you really think he/she would try to pressure you into doing something that wasn't good for your kids then you need to immediately find a new doc. That means never go to that doc again.
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#13 of 19 Old 10-28-2012, 05:54 AM
 
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flumist is a live virus and can shed to unsuspecting individuals

 

 

Quote:
If all of the 9 million kids receive the nasal spray vaccine they will spread the virus on average to approximately 13,500 innocent bystanders (9,000,000X.015=13,500) this effect is called shedding and the media refer to it as “herd” immunity. This is where it gets weird the numbers 13,500 are close to the statistics the mainstream prestitutes claim will benefit from the vaccine as reported by BBC,“If 30% take up the offer, there will be 11,000 fewer hospitalizations and 2,000 fewer deaths each year, the chief medical officer for England says”. Perhaps there is some code embedded in the numbers that when you wear the new world orders glasses you can properly interpret the message. For instance the phrase “if 30% take up the offer” actually means, 30% more people will get infected and “11,000 fewer hospitalizations and 2,000 fewer deaths” really means the exact opposite. Soon it might not matter whether or not you want a vaccination it might just land on you via the sneeze from a Weaponized Mucus Device created by man, spread by man, to destroy man. 

 

 

http://experimentalvaccines.org/2012/08/18/sneezing-the-new-wmd-weaponized-mucus-device/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medrealist View Post

Without reproducing the entire patient physician information form let me try to clarify a couple points. Flumist will not cause the flu. ( actually the odds are 1 on 1 quintrillion). However, it can make you or your child feel crummy for a few days with some similar symptoms that are generally minimal, but can be like a really mild case of the flu. Mild flu doesn't mean you feel we'll, you can actually feel kind of lousy - but that would be very mild for the flu. Since the flu kills an estimated 40,000 people on this country a year ( more some years and less in others like last year) most people think the chance for side effects outweighs the risk for actually contracting the flu. Plus if many people get vaccinated you decrease the risk a flu outbreak spreading to effect immunocompromised kids who can't get vaccinated. So your sense of personal versus social responsibility comes into play and that can make for tough decisions.
About the less than 60 month thing. Kids less than 5 with any wheeze or anyone with asthma should not receive the flumist. Kids over 2 without wheeze or asthma may recei e the vaccine. FYI - your pediatrician is always trying to give you the best advice for your kids. If you really think he/she would try to pressure you into doing something that wasn't good for your kids then you need to immediately find a new doc. That means never go to that doc again.
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#14 of 19 Old 11-06-2012, 05:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by emmy526 View Post

flumist is a live virus and can shed to unsuspecting individuals

 

 

 

Yes. However, this reference (http://www.medimmune.com/pdf/products/flumist_pi.pdf) which appears to be a flumist insert, claims the probability of catching flu from a child vaccinated with flumist who you are regularly exposed to is between 0.5-2%. So 98-99.5% of the time no transmission will occur. 


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#15 of 19 Old 11-06-2012, 07:06 AM
 
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DH got really sick from Flumist, and every year in his squadron (military is required to take Flumist yearly) about 1/3 of all airmen who receive it get sick for 3-6 days with stuffy noses and strong headaches (which defeats the purpose of flumist: preventing sick days - if they went back to the injected version less people would call in sick, but you know, they have an exclusive contract with Medimmune, money is more important). If you are lucky, the person who administers it lets you not inhale and blow your nose quickly (many will do), that way very little Flumist enters your system and you dodge the bullet. We had our last dose this year as DH will resign his commission. Yeah!

 

To your baby: treat it like the regular flu or cold. Chamomille tea with raw honey, vitamins d3 and c, my kids love to drink emergen-c which I spike with sodium ascorbate, plenty of fluids, chicken soup.... I hope he will feel better soon! My otherwise healthy allergy-free adult DH got so sick from it I don't wanna know what it can do to kids. Poor kiddo!

 

Apart from that, we stayed clear of DH for about 7 days after Flumistings to avoid shedding; we also boosted everyone's immune system with extra d3 and zinc. We are select-delayers but would never opt for flu shots.

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#16 of 19 Old 11-07-2012, 01:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nia82 View Post

DH got really sick from Flumist, and every year in his squadron (military is required to take Flumist yearly) about 1/3 of all airmen who receive it get sick for 3-6 days with stuffy noses and strong headaches 

 

As Medrealist pointed out a few posts up, getting sick from Flumist is not the same as getting flu. And the point isn't to stop people getting the common cold, it's to stop them getting flu - not the same at all.....


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#17 of 19 Old 11-07-2012, 02:14 AM
 
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As Medrealist pointed out a few posts up, getting sick from Flumist is not the same as getting flu. And the point isn't to stop people getting the common cold, it's to stop them getting flu - not the same at all.....

Are you saying the common cold and the flu are caused by the same virus? The illness is identified by the virus causing it -- NOT the symptoms.
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#18 of 19 Old 11-07-2012, 06:47 AM
 
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I didn't say he got the flu. I said he and others get severe headaches, stuffy noses and so on from Flumist. Read my post again! :) I will summarize: many military personnel who receive the Flumist come down with flu-like symptoms following the days after administration. It is not a cold, it is not the flu, it is vaccine-induced side effects that prevent them from working, symptoms they did not suffer from when they were forced to get the injected version. Flumist is much more reactive.

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#19 of 19 Old 10-19-2013, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shanaz Rahim View Post

This has to be one of the most ignorant threads out here. I searched how to recover quickly from the vaccine mist, and thought that mothers know best. But I'm questioning that now.

Vaccines work so that they are a form of the virus but is highly unlikely (98%>) to cause an outbreak. The reason for it containing virus particles but with their genetic material killed is so that your immune system can recognize it. The immune system recognizes the outside of the virus, not inside, and mounts an immune response which is why we feel crappy. Without some vaccines, we'd have a lot less people in the world. Influenza is quick to mutate, which is why the CDC wants us to get the vaccine every year so we don't have our immune system compromised for weeks and spread it to the people we encounter for those weeks.

If you've done your homework, you'd know that. I don't care about the whole bashing of the vaccine as long as you know the way it's supposed to work and why it's reccomended. I would get my kids vaccinated because I'd rather them be sort of sick from the shot than have a full blown flu virus infect them without their immune system knowing what to do at all. That's my opinion.

Also, if you did your research, you'd also know that the shot is much less painful for kids in terms of giving them colds. But that would be common sense since the shot isn't live and the mist is. Yes, the mist can be spread but do you think the purpose is to give the child full blown influenza? NO. It introduces the virus to the system and can protect from more strains if that live virus decides to change as it always does every flu season, which is why you need to get new ones.

I'm sorry if you all knew this but it does not seem like any of you did at all. That's alarming more than anything.

Welcome, Shanaz. :w I'm curious, what brings you to MDC?

 

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