vaccination for worse living conditions? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i've been mulling this over and i'm curious about what others think.

i know that we enjoy a privilege in the US of healthier living conditions than most of the world in regards to sanitation, water quality, and food cleanliness not to mention being able to order supplements and the like from the internet.i think everyone would agree that this lowers our chances of getting sick by communicable illnesses.

now, i've been thinking about our global future and how unsustainable our "first-world" lifestyle is, how our clean water supply is being used faster than it's being replenished, how global warming is changing climates across the globe.

so, my question is this: if you knew that we were going to be placed in a situation where the things we take for granted (sodium ascorbate ordered from the internet, clean running water to wash our hands, flush-able toilets, a plentiful and healthy food supply) would be going away, would you want your children to have the protection a vaccine could offer?

it seems like so often on this forum healthiness is touted as all the disease protection one would need, but what if the factors that support that health were to disappear?

i am a selective vaxer and my 19 mo dd has not had any vaxes yet, so while i'm contemplating a societal change within the next five or ten years or so, i'm not getting her any vaxes tomorrow, it's just been something that's been influencing my thoughts.

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#2 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 08:58 PM
 
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My mind kept going over vaccines, sanitation, adequte food when we were in India in January. I kept asking myself, how are these children, living, and thriving in subpar conditions? My 2 1/2 year old ds was sick for part of the trip and he was not eating well at all, i don't know how many bugs he was exposed to when we were there, but he was vomiting for a few days and had a terrible respiratory bug and loose stools for most the trip. When we brought him back to the states he was feverish and he ended up having an ear infection from all that phelgm. I suppose had he been living there, no, had we both been living there for his entire life , i would have passed immunities on to him in the womb and later with breastfeeding, (he had weaned just three months prior to the trip). I saw dirty clothed, dirty faced bare bottom children. I saw a women do EC with her infant right on the concrete courtyard of a temple we were visiting where shoes were not allowed, I saw public urination like no other, yet no one seemed to be so deathly ill while were there, none of dh's family appeared very sick other than occasional bugs and fevers. (we were there for a month). So i chalked it up to: could it be adequate nutritoin? as sanitation was very subpar according to american standards. Or could it be the more obvious, that these people were eating more whole foods, filled with nutrious goodness rather than fillers such as HFCS and trans fat to name a couple, that we are accustomed to in the us? But my ultimate conclusion was this: The vaccination movement causes unnecessary fear of diseases that in most instances are indeed not deadly, but just diseases that are a right of passage as the common cold still is. Not saying that diseases aren't deadly, but just overfeared in the western culture. (It was very common practice to boil water in India, and that is one good way to get rid of germs that cause water borne illnesses)

Not sure if i answered your question, but just putting in my 2 cents...

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#3 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i think that sort of answered my question.

i wonder what the rates of death from childhood disease is in india? i googled it but came up with articles talking about vaccination. i would assume that you would mostly see healthy children as opposed to ill ones.

the lack of sanitary waste facilities is more like what i'm thinking about. i can't imagine that that wouldn't increase the spread of disease.

i'm also curious about why the diseases would gain notoriety as being more vicious than they are. i asked my grandma and she had mumps and measles, my mom had german measles and regular measles but no one had diptheria (my personal phobic one) nor tetanus nor whooping cough but the consensus was that diptheria was pretty scary and my grandma and great-grandma and dad all knew someone that suffered paralysis from polio.

if i might ask, what did their teeth look like?

eta: i'm not sure if i responded to your post !! what do you think about the US population going into conditions like that? would we be more like your son and get sick easier or would we gradually become more resilient?

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#4 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 10:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
so, my question is this: if you knew that we were going to be placed in a situation where the things we take for granted (sodium ascorbate ordered from the internet, clean running water to wash our hands, flush-able toilets, a plentiful and healthy food supply) would be going away, would you want your children to have the protection a vaccine could offer?
Nope, I would still refuse all vaccines because I believe that all vaccines are 100% harmful and 100% ineffective and have always been a big scam. Vaccines are blood poisoning and are completely toxic garbage and do not belong in the human bloodstream.

Traditional & nutrient-dense foods/Weston A. Price Foundation advocate, Reiki II practitioner, EFT practitioner, past life & life between lives Hypnotherapist practitioner. Home birth with DD 2007 = never vaccinated, breastfed 3 years

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#5 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 10:45 PM
 
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There arent vaccines out there for 90% of the things that could make you sick in squalor anyway. I think you would be better off without the vaccines as you would be stronger to fight off anything whether it had a vax or not.

Me(33), Mama to a crazy DD (6), Wife to a wonderful mountain man(32) BF my babe for 2 years.
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#6 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 10:47 PM
 
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Nope, I would still refuse all vaccines because I believe that all vaccines are 100% harmful and 100% ineffective and have always been a big scam. Vaccines are blood poisoning and are completely toxic garbage and do not belong in the human bloodstream.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#7 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 10:58 PM
 
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One of the primary reasons we choose to stick closer to a standard vax schedule than we might have otherwise is that we do travel to areas where disease and healthcare can sometimes be very different matters from here.
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#8 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:14 PM
 
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One of the primary reasons we choose to stick closer to a standard vax schedule than we might have otherwise is that we do travel to areas where disease and healthcare can sometimes be very different matters from here.
this is us as well.
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#9 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There arent vaccines out there for 90% of the things that could make you sick in squalor anyway. I think you would be better off without the vaccines as you would be stronger to fight off anything whether it had a vax or not.
i guess what i'm referring to are the things there are vaccines for since better hygiene and sanitation is often given as the reason that those diseases decreased so rapidly in occurrence.

so, given this premise (sanitation = decreased VPD) then would you want the protection offered by a vaccine?

i can tell that most people probably wouldn't want the vaxes but it seems to be that if that premise wasn't true then perhaps folks would rethink their stance but i guess it's not really panning out that way.

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#10 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:24 PM
 
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yet no one seemed to be so deathly ill while were there, none of dh's family appeared very sick other than occasional bugs and fevers. (we were there for a month). So i chalked it up to: could it be adequate nutritoin? as sanitation was very subpar according to american standards. Or could it be the more obvious, that these people were eating more whole foods, filled with nutrious goodness rather than fillers such as HFCS and trans fat to name a couple, that we are accustomed to in the us? But my ultimate conclusion was this: The vaccination movement causes unnecessary fear of diseases that in most instances are indeed not deadly, but just diseases that are a right of passage as the common cold still is. Not saying that diseases aren't deadly, but just overfeared in the western culture. (It was very common practice to boil water in India, and that is one good way to get rid of germs that cause water borne illnesses)
I think you're right that immunity gained over generations is the likely reason that visitors to India get sick from certain bacteria such more often than those who live them and are accustomed to exposure.

But India has an appalling rate of child mortality - one of the highest in the world - and malnutrition is one of the main causes. Lack of sanitation/clean water and lack of access to quality health care in certain areas or for the poor are other big factors. Toxic pollution from poorly regulated industry is also a factor.
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#11 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:39 PM
 
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i guess what i'm referring to are the things there are vaccines for since better hygiene and sanitation is often given as the reason that those diseases decreased so rapidly in occurrence.
Well ... I always make sure my own hepatitis vaccines are up to date, for example. And the big reason I make sure of that is that I have been in the position of seeking medical care, including blood draws and such, in a country with high hepatitis rates and quite appalling rates of transmission via unsanitary medical care conditions. There is a difference when you find yourself sitting somewhere and the realization hits you that the needle you just let someone stick in your arm is not being disposed of, and you don't know where it might have been last or how well it was cleaned. What might seem more relatively threatening does has some reasonable room in which to shift depending on experience or the anticipation of experience.
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#12 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:53 PM
 
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#13 of 23 Old 09-25-2009, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well ... I always make sure my own hepatitis vaccines are up to date, for example. And the big reason I make sure of that is that I have been in the position of seeking medical care, including blood draws and such, in a country with high hepatitis rates and quite appalling rates of transmission via unsanitary medical care conditions. There is a difference when you find yourself sitting somewhere and the realization hits you that the needle you just let someone stick in your arm is not being disposed of, and you don't know where it might have been last or how well it was cleaned. What might seem more relatively threatening does has some reasonable room in which to shift depending on experience or the anticipation of experience.
right. i guess what i'm getting at is that we have a LOT of privilege in the country and what would people do if that privilege were to disappear?

i mean, we take it as a fact that we can hop on the internet and order a supplement whenever we want. but what if you couldn't? what if you couldn't just go to the store and buy oranges year-round for vitamin c? what if vitamin a were not available to help you with measles? what if you were faced with the idea listed above where medical supplies are available in very limited quantities and needles have to be re-used?

would you want things like hepatitis shots to offer you immunity?

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#14 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 03:43 AM
 
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In my paranoid moments I worry about this. .

I sometimes put effort in trying to figure out how to be self sufficient in such a way that I could still look after the health of my family without modern convenience. It would not be easy and no fun at all. I would have to adopt a traditional diet in the most extreme sense - try to learn as much about the diet of the people where I live from 100 years ago - what plants they used for healing, how they prepared and stored their food etc and use that coupled with my understaning of basic hygiene and nutrient dense food, foods that sustain a robust immune system and the benefits of exercise outside in the sun and fresh air. The thought of life without internet worries me - but I think with a lot of hard work I could do it.

Would I vaccinate? I don't think so. Although I cannot say with 100% certainty. I think it is highly unlikely. Perhaps if I had a choice of individual vaccines for the diseases I was concerned about, but I think I would not be able to get my mind past the risk of the vaccine and just what a huge unknown that is. I suspect I would re-evaluate and go over the list of ingredients for the vaccine being considered and go over the information I have on the short and long term safety for each ingredient being injected and then see if I can find information on how the ingredients interact when injected together..... I don't know. I guess I am more confident in my ability to support health in the general sense. I think general precautions would be beneficial for all disease prevention/treatment as opposed to relying on specific protection from a specific disease (vaccine). I realise that this approach would not work for all families.

I am already starting a veggie garden in my back yard and starting to read up about how to nourish the soil to be able to grow the most nutrient dense foods. I fantasize about having chickens running around - but that is not realistic where I live

The day I started trying to figure out whether to vaccinate my son or not, totally changed my life. I have had to challenge so much that I took for granted. And change my nutrional and lifestyle habits in quite a fundamental way.

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#15 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 11:35 AM
 
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Hm... I guess my feeling on it (I say as I don my tinfoil hat) is that by the time our living conditions are bad enough to encourage some of us to change our minds on vaccination, the vaccines may well no longer be an available option to us (unless, for instance, just your country crashes and other countries come in to provide aid?). I live in the US, and it seems like the feeling here among everyone is one of disbelief that it could ever collapse... and that if it *did* collapse, the rest of the world would, too, so aid would probably not be coming. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, I suspect it could just be the big-headed-American thinking, but the "survivalist" in me has me collecting herbal healing books and also lots of gardening books about gardening "when it counts", so to speak.

It's also kinda fun to figure out herbal remedies...

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#16 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 12:41 PM
 
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We are preparing for the worst. The dollar is crashing. All those G-20 meetings going on are openly discussing what to do about the dollar. If you read any news report that is NOT mainstream, you'll see it's true. (Mainstream news is actually owned by the same people who are pushing the NWO movement) So what happens to the great people of the USA once the dollar is worth nothing? Well, we better be prepared. It is naive to think that something like that could never happen here in the US. Well, it did (great depression) and it certainly can happen again!

We are just stocking up on everything. That's all we can do. I hope everybody will prepare as well. What if I'm wrong? Well, nothing! We will have lots of food and supplies, and that is great. But what if I'm right? Then we are prepared, and that is even better

 
 
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#17 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hm... I guess my feeling on it (I say as I don my tinfoil hat) is that by the time our living conditions are bad enough to encourage some of us to change our minds on vaccination, the vaccines may well no longer be an available option to us (unless, for instance, just your country crashes and other countries come in to provide aid?). I live in the US, and it seems like the feeling here among everyone is one of disbelief that it could ever collapse... and that if it *did* collapse, the rest of the world would, too, so aid would probably not be coming. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, I suspect it could just be the big-headed-American thinking, but the "survivalist" in me has me collecting herbal healing books and also lots of gardening books about gardening "when it counts", so to speak.

It's also kinda fun to figure out herbal remedies...
see, that's kind of what i'm thinking, so maybe it _would_ be a good idea to get vaxed now before it's too late.

i also stocked up on herbs from mountain rose herbs in a group buy so they were 50% off, i know potency fades but at least it would be something because not many things grow well in the high desert.

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#18 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 02:14 PM
 
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We already vaccinate based on current situations/travel/risks/etc-- so it would definitely be on our minds if we moved to, for example, a developing nation.

Even here in the states, if I got bit by a rabid animal, I would get the vaccine based on that circumstance. so present circumstances and near future circumstances definitely come into our minds and play a part in our decisions.

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#19 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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i guess what i'm referring to are the things there are vaccines for since better hygiene and sanitation is often given as the reason that those diseases decreased so rapidly in occurrence.

so, given this premise (sanitation = decreased VPD) then would you want the protection offered by a vaccine?

i can tell that most people probably wouldn't want the vaxes but it seems to be that if that premise wasn't true then perhaps folks would rethink their stance but i guess it's not really panning out that way.
I am also of the opinion you can be too clean. My mother grew up on a Yugloslavian farm, with no running water. They had a well and bathed about once a week and washed up with a cloth and a basin at night. Her and her siblings shared the basin water. Eww. They ate healthy food but it was not refrigerated or pasteurized. She never gets sick. Not a cold or flu or stomach bug ever. She had all the childhood illness, MMR Chicken pox, and had typical childhood ear and throat infections with out being treated by antibiotics. My mother even lived through TB (ABX were used for that eventually). I really do think that this is why she doesnt get sick today. I am also thankful she breastfed me so I got some of those antibodies. My father had the same type of upbringing and he is the same way. I dont vaccinate because my parents were not and they are fine and seem to be tougher for it. I am not afraid of my DD getting sick, period. She is going to get sick sometimes and I will make sure her body is able to deal with it all. For my parents I really think the fresh food and exposure to dirt and germs helped more than anything.

My goal is not to have a child that will never get sick. Thats impossible whether that are vaccinated or not. My goal is that my child be healthy enough to deal with anything that comes her way. She is not dirty but I do not bathe her everyday and I never wash her hands unless they get really dirty from eating. If I take her to India, she is going to get sick whether or not she is vaccinated. When I went to Serbia, I was sick off and on the entire time. I was vaccinated. They just have a different germ ecosystem than I am accustomed to.

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#20 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am also of the opinion you can be too clean.

She had all the childhood illness, MMR Chicken pox, and had typical childhood ear and throat infections with out being treated by antibiotics.

My goal is not to have a child that will never get sick. Thats impossible whether that are vaccinated or not. My goal is that my child be healthy enough to deal with anything that comes her way.
i agree with the hyper-cleanliness theory. i let my kids play in the dirt and i don't freak out when my baby eats compost, though i do bathe them every day.

i would guess that your mother does have a strong immune system after experiencing all of those diseases!

as far as keeping your child healthy enough to withstand disease, what would you do if the food supply was cut off, and the only healthy food available was stuff you'd grown yourself? where i live, we'd be living on tomatoes, fruit from the trees, and maybe some antelope. no dairy available within 120 miles nor much produce.

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#21 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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.Or could it be the more obvious, that these people were eating more whole foods, filled with nutrious goodness rather than fillers such as HFCS and trans fat to name a couple, that we are accustomed to in the us?
The extremely poor in Bangladesh, where my DH is from, eat mainly a diet of white rice. Many can't even afford lentils or eggs, not to mention fruits and veggies.
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#22 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 04:08 PM
 
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I might consider a vax for something that is not treatable with what i might have on hand or access to. i do believe, however, that the human body is extremely capable of adapting to change.

for instance, i am one of those people who tries to eat extremely well. i am very sensitive to sugar because everytime i eat too much i feel sick. but my brother, i swear, only eats sugar. he has actually done this to prepare himself for not having access to the healthier things, and his body is not affected like mine would be.

also, i'm starting to research mind over matter and energy manipulation. not saying it can prevent anything-but the mind is a very powerful thing!
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#23 of 23 Old 09-26-2009, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[QUOTE=nycmom18;14440903]I might consider a vax for something that is not treatable with what i might have on hand or access to. i do believe, however, that the human body is extremely capable of adapting to change.

for instance, i am one of those people who tries to eat extremely well. i am very sensitive to sugar because everytime i eat too much i feel sick. but my brother, i swear, only eats sugar. he has actually done this to prepare himself for not having access to the healthier things, and his body is not affected like mine would be.QUOTE]

i'm curious as to why your brother thinks there would be sugar available? sugar makes me feel awful too.

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