H1N1/Swine Flu Vax - October '09 - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post
They're talking about the safety of the H1N1 vaccine on NPR's Talk of the Nation right now. FWIW.

ETA... it's apparently just Dr. Offit on there... seems like he's the only one on TOTN for vaccines
Did you see this article??

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...60&sc=fb&cc=fp

What does everyone think?

FTR, we don't vaccinate and won't be getting this shot. But, I am a little surprised at the nature of this "article" on NPR.

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#182 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 06:35 PM
 
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they swabbed her and told my dh it was the flu and 99% sure swine flu because that is what they are seeing here at the military hospital.
yes, but you still don't know if you are really dealing with Swine flu. anyone who comes in to the hospital with flu is being told its swine flu.
Think of the two recent deaths at Miami at Ohio were the headlines blared it was from swine flu because that's what the doctors told the families. After the family ordered official test and they came back - turns out neither was infected with H1N1.

this may be part of the reason that the 'flu' is reported circulating more widely much earlier than in recent years, but deaths are not higher than any other year. People feeling ill who would normally not go into the hospital in any other year are in the hospital this year being 'diagnosed' with swine flu. CDC isn't even bothering to test 'suspected' cases anymore - so who knows what is what.

And who knows if prevnar would help? More visits to the ER, more hospitalizations IS going to mean more staph, pneumonia, etc whether vaccinated or not, because the best place to pick up antibiotic-resistant strains of anything, is a hospital.
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#183 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 06:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dillonandmarasmom View Post
Did you see this article??

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...60&sc=fb&cc=fp

What does everyone think?

FTR, we don't vaccinate and won't be getting this shot. But, I am a little surprised at the nature of this "article" on NPR.

that's more of an advertisement for the vaccine, not an article. NPR has become very pro-vaccine in the last couple of years.
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#184 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 06:54 PM
 
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that's more of an advertisement for the vaccine, not an article. NPR has become very pro-vaccine in the last couple of years.
Exactly how I felt. What is up with NPR?

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#185 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 08:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dillonandmarasmom View Post
Did you see this article??

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...60&sc=fb&cc=fp

What does everyone think?

FTR, we don't vaccinate and won't be getting this shot. But, I am a little surprised at the nature of this "article" on NPR.
Yeah, I heard it on the way home tonight. The things they were saying weren't straight out lies (I don't think, for the most part), but, uh, there's more to it than that

TOTN had more SF coverage today, too. At least the guy today wasn't as pompous about his views as Offit came off yesterday.

It's frustrating to me that they're saying that there's no "bad" to the vaccines. Like the risk is so very miniscule that there's no point in not getting it. I dunno... I wish they'd at least get *someone* on there to offer the opposing view point.

I agree with others - it's the medical propaganda machine at it's finest, and it makes me so disappointed in NPR.

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#186 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 09:29 PM
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Aspirin overdoses implicated in some 1918 deaths:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/he...n.html?_r=1&em


Interesting.

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#187 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 09:53 PM
 
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I have read some things about viral illness in pregnancy in 1st trimester, regarding vitamin A (be sure you get plenty during this important time) - it is not the viral infection you have to fear but the fact that some infections wipe the body out of vitamin A and it is the vit. A deficiency during this time that can cause potential problems for baby. (this was regarding rubella and not influenza) .. but I thought I'd pass the info along for your own research because if it were me, I'd want to be on the safe side and be sure I was not low on vit A for any infectious viral illness during this time. Get your A from natural sources, as it is the synthetic A that can be harmful if overdosed.
Yes, many (or all?) viral illnesses use up vitamin A stores to fight the disease. There's an acronym for it that starts with a T; can't remember it ... Anyway, chicken pox, rubella, measles, and I think even the flu, the reason they're so feared in pregnancy is that if caught in the first trimester, the pregnant woman may end up deficient in A at a time that A is most needed to form the developing baby. Birth defects ranging from cleft palate to club feet and much worse (researchers have been able to induce double-heads in animals!, or a whole litter of cleft palate or blind or split-ear piglets, then make the next litter perfect simply by restoring the mother's vitamin A source) can result. That's why the heavy push for these vaccines - but the simple solution is just to ensure ample vitamin A.

Plant sources will provide beta-carotene, the precursor to vitamin A. Most people don't make the conversion from beta-carotene to vitamin A well, but it's better than nothing! Animal sources of vitamin A include (real, i.e., fermented) cod liver oil, grassfed liver, & grassfed butter/cheese/milk. If you go for a supplement, be sure to take retinyl acetate, NOT retinyl palmitate, which is synthetic vitamin A and extremely toxic in not-so-large doses - it is the reason vitamin A has a reputation for toxicity. It also must be balanced with sufficient vitamin D if taken as a supplement. Whole food sources will be naturally balanced.
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#188 of 635 Old 10-13-2009, 10:27 PM
 
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I'm just generally aggravated right now and venting...and wondering how long until yearly flu shots are mandated for school entry, which I am sure is the way it's going.
Hate to tell you, but that's already the case here in NJ. Any child 6 MONTHS or older who is in child care or school has to get a flu vaccine by state law (not H1N1), except for medical and religious exemptions. It's ridiculous.

Some of the hospitals here are requiring staff to get the H1N1 vaccine, which my hubby (a doctor) is not too thrilled about getting.

 

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#189 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 03:11 AM
 
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Today's NPR story has me so mad.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=113776378

The last line in particular!

Quote:
That is, the courage to take on opponents. But now, when some doctors have told Thomas they don't want to get a flu shot, he just says: "Let me know the next time you go into the operating room if you don't want to scrub."
I don't even get the comparison.

Fear mongering, plain and simple.

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#190 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 06:24 AM
 
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Wow, I still can't believe the NY situation. Surely with 60% of workers refusing the shot, they can't possibly enforce that law anyway. If they do manage to scare enough people into submission, I shudder to think what might happen to the rest of the country as a result. And what kinds of medical procedures will they be making everyone get in the future? Today vaccines, but what kinds of things will our children have to submit to when they are grown? "Give Pharma an inch and they'll take a mile."

What they should really do is have 2 hospitals- one with vaxed workers, one with unvaxed. Let us patients decide who we want to go to! Do you really want someone treating you who has been vaxed? If I were undergoing surgery for example, I'd want a dr who has ALL their brain cells intact! (As well as natural, and thus, permanent immunity to disease!) The thought that ALL health care workers of the future might be vaxed is scary indeed!

I enjoyed this article:

http://www.naturalnews.com/027222_sw...u_vaccine.html

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#191 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 09:11 AM
 
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I have a friend who works in HR at a local hospital and she said they're already seeing "early retirement" in response to the flu shot requirements. She said by the end of november (when they're supposed to ALL have had the flu shot) she expects to see a lot more.

I thought we were hurting for medical employees! Seems like this is going to make a lot of people leave or think twice before entering a medical-related career.

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#192 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 09:13 AM
 
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Today's NPR story has me so mad.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=113776378

The last line in particular!



I don't even get the comparison.

Fear mongering, plain and simple.
Please, please write to NPR and call them out on this. The more people who do, the more likely it is to change.

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#193 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 10:43 AM
 
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I'm trying to work my way through all these arguments.

Can someone please summarize, or direct me to a summary, of the precise arguments against getting the vax?

I'm always wondering whether anti-vaxers just don't believe vaccines work (and what the basis of that is) or if they don't believe the diseases are serious, or if they don't like the ingredients, or whatever. After being exposed to these questions for a couple of years, I still feel agnostic on the matter.

In my view, the main reason for a healthy adult not to get the H1N1 vax is if it's patently clear it has no effect on getting sick.

My great-grandmother was orphaned in 1918; I tend to think flu is something to take seriously. Thanks!
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#194 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM
 
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I'm trying to work my way through all these arguments.

Can someone please summarize, or direct me to a summary, of the precise arguments against getting the vax?

I'm always wondering whether anti-vaxers just don't believe vaccines work (and what the basis of that is) or if they don't believe the diseases are serious, or if they don't like the ingredients, or whatever. After being exposed to these questions for a couple of years, I still feel agnostic on the matter.

In my view, the main reason for a healthy adult not to get the H1N1 vax is if it's patently clear it has no effect on getting sick.

My great-grandmother was orphaned in 1918; I tend to think flu is something to take seriously. Thanks!
Well, for starters, it's a class C drug. So for pregnant women, it's definitely something to think about. Tamiflu is a class C drug, too.

Class C - according to wikipedia
Quote:
Animal reproduction studies have shown an adverse effect on the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in humans, but potential benefits may warrant use of the drug in pregnant women despite potential risks.
So, if you get the vaccine, you're GUARANTEED to be taking in a class C drug. If you wait around for the flu, you may or may not get it, and if you don't get it, you don't have to worry about any class C drug affecting your fetus, and if you DO get it, you may be taking tamiflu - which is also class C, but there's the chance of not needing it.

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#195 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 11:13 AM
 
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I am still sorting my way through all of this as well. But I did read an interesting article regarding the 1918 flu in the NY times. It raises questions about "wonder drugs" specifically that in 1918 aspirin was a wonder drug and was given to everyone for the flu, it appears now that aspirin may have had a much larger effect on the death toll than thought, that many people were taking the equivalent of 25-35 pills in 24 hours leading to a high incidence of Reyes Syndrome. I just wonder if in 100 years we will look back on this flu and question the high usage of tamiflu and relenza.

For now it appears the the h1n1 is mostly a mild disease that getting the flu and suffering for a few days is worth the immunity it provides should the disease mutate. But that is a decision that everyone needs to make on their own given their own family circumstances.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/he...spirin.html?em

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#196 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 11:24 AM
 
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Well, for starters, it's a class C drug. So for pregnant women, it's definitely something to think about. Tamiflu is a class C drug, too.

Class C - according to wikipedia

So, if you get the vaccine, you're GUARANTEED to be taking in a class C drug. If you wait around for the flu, you may or may not get it, and if you don't get it, you don't have to worry about any class C drug affecting your fetus, and if you DO get it, you may be taking tamiflu - which is also class C, but there's the chance of not needing it.
Thanks - I understand about pregnant women, but what about other adults or children?
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#197 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 11:47 AM
 
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I really enjoyed this article

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#198 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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those who are wondering why the swine flu cases, hospitalizations and deaths seem to have skyrocketed during September - take a look at this page from the cdc website (sorry if its already been posted):

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/reportingqa.htm

highlights:

Quote:
Why does it seem like the numbers of weekly hospitalizations and deaths are going up?
The reported numbers for the first week of data using the new case definitions are higher than the average weekly numbers that were being posted for 2009 H1N1 counts because what is being counted is different and how it is being counted is different.
basically - the reported hospitalizations and deaths since Sept are based on laboratory and syndromic cases. Syndromic cases are also included in the reporting of pediatric deaths since September, which is brand new for this year.

in a normal flu season(see bottom of page in link for 'regular' flu season reporting) - Hospitalization surveillance: tracks numbers of hospitalizations with laboratory-confirmed flu infections among adults and children.
Only laboratory confirmed cases are tallied for pediatric deaths


Just keep in mind while reading the headlines that 'laboratory confirmation' isn't necessary at all this season. Doc says its flu. Its flu. If he says its swine flu, its swine flu - and this goes into the official tally, no questions asked. 'Tracking' things this way ensures this will be the worst flu season ever - whether or not there is any difference in serious illness.
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#199 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 04:01 PM
 
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I am so angry about the madate for health care workers. What is the justification for this? Why not teachers, bus drivers, restaurant workers? They all have just as much contact with people. Where does it end? I think it is the HEIGHT of selfishness for Americans to want to force other human beings to inject toxins into themselves in order to protect themselves. If these patients who are so afraid of swine flu don't want to get it, then THEY themselves should be vaccinated rather than forcing their nurses and doctors to vaccinate. Unbelivable! DS is in daycare and I would never support a mandatory vaccination program for his teachers.

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#200 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 04:06 PM
 
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Excellent article! thanks!

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#201 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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Mizznicole-Hi. To list all the reason we don't vax at all would take too long. Specifically for H1N1-since I'm not pregnant, it would have to be the ingrediants in both injectable and flumist. We got the flu last year from the flumist vaccine through some one else. So for me, the flumist is a definate no no in our house. I'm confident that we can fight off the flu if we caught it- we did in Jan for the seasonal flu. Two of us have colds currently, and if they linger or get worse I'll think about getting tested to see if it's H1N1.

In agreement about the mandate. I'm actually surprised more people are not up in arms about this. Yes, it's not my state, but it could become my state if NY succeeds with the mandate. I saw healthcare workers in Washington State also were suing for the same thing. You don't see news about it though like it is in NY. I also think it could also cross over to teachers and private employers could do that too I think.
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#202 of 635 Old 10-14-2009, 05:23 PM
 
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Thanks - I understand about pregnant women, but what about other adults or children?
Please read the article I posted in post #197. It will answer your questions.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#203 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 05:23 AM
 
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those who are wondering why the swine flu cases, hospitalizations and deaths seem to have skyrocketed during September - take a look at this page from the cdc website (sorry if its already been posted):

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/reportingqa.htm

highlights:



basically - the reported hospitalizations and deaths since Sept are based on laboratory and syndromic cases. Syndromic cases are also included in the reporting of pediatric deaths since September, which is brand new for this year.

in a normal flu season(see bottom of page in link for 'regular' flu season reporting) - Hospitalization surveillance: tracks numbers of hospitalizations with laboratory-confirmed flu infections among adults and children.
Only laboratory confirmed cases are tallied for pediatric deaths


Just keep in mind while reading the headlines that 'laboratory confirmation' isn't necessary at all this season. Doc says its flu. Its flu. If he says its swine flu, its swine flu - and this goes into the official tally, no questions asked. 'Tracking' things this way ensures this will be the worst flu season ever - whether or not there is any difference in serious illness.

What a rotten, rotten thing to do!! I totally agree with you. Thanks for the link; hadn't seen it.

So basically, in previous years, states only reported laboratory confirmed hospitalizations and deaths and this year, they are to report those as well as suspected cases.

I wonder, if this new reporting system is to remain in place indefinitely or will it change back to the old way a year from now. Because essentially it will mean that 2010-2011 will also be a bad year!! And so 2011-2012, etc, etc etc..

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#204 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 09:20 AM
 
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Just keep in mind while reading the headlines that 'laboratory confirmation' isn't necessary at all this season. Doc says its flu. Its flu. If he says its swine flu, its swine flu - and this goes into the official tally, no questions asked. 'Tracking' things this way ensures this will be the worst flu season ever - whether or not there is any difference in serious illness.
Just substitute the words "swine flu" with "polio" and you see how the polio numbers skyrocketed almost 60 years ago. Almost all those "polio" cases were simply the same symptoms as doctors are reporting now, except the doctor back then may have asked if the person had a stiff neck. The same symptoms people get every year when the sun starts to fade and children are put back in confined quarters after updating "their" vaccinations.

What really needs to be tracked are the people getting the flu and swine flu shots as well as those who went in to the hospital with "swine flu" and were put on hardcore antibiotics. What are their outcomes?

As I've stated many times, it is the easiest thing in the world to manipulate numbers. What is more valuable is to backtrack each "swine flu death" and see a timeline of events. Was that person vaccinated? Was that person put in the hospital and therefore received what medication or exposed to what possible infections? Was that person already very ill and just happend to die at the same time he/she had flu-like symptoms?

As stated by the CDC, they don't even need lab results. They don't have time for all that nonsense. I know several people now who went into the doctor not feeling well and were told they had swine flu within minutes.

What's most important is that people just look around and pay attention to the world around them. What do they actually see? What are they personally experiencing? Televison can create vast illusions.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. - Oscar Wilde
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#205 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 10:18 AM
 
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I'm trying to work my way through all these arguments.

Can someone please summarize, or direct me to a summary, of the precise arguments against getting the vax?

I'm always wondering whether anti-vaxers just don't believe vaccines work (and what the basis of that is) or if they don't believe the diseases are serious, or if they don't like the ingredients, or whatever. After being exposed to these questions for a couple of years, I still feel agnostic on the matter.

In my view, the main reason for a healthy adult not to get the H1N1 vax is if it's patently clear it has no effect on getting sick.

And I would need convincing that flu vaccination, in the short term, would noticeably reduce serious short-term outcomes, plus that it does not cause perhaps subtle long-term problems.

The long-term issues are especially keen for kids, because now that CDC is recommending annual vaccination for kids and anyone who wants it as an adult, that's 60+ years of annual vaccination, and where is that going to leave them when they are older and relatively more frail? I don't think enough data _can_ be known right now to say that path is safe.


My great-grandmother was orphaned in 1918; I tend to think flu is something to take seriously. Thanks!
It's funny that I just today ran across an interesting article on flu vaccines.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200911/brownlee-h1n1/2

I was going to write that the evidence isn't particularly strong that flu vaccines help, but that article does it a lot better than I could.

I was also going to mention that the overall mindset of CDC is very different than my own. Their end goal always seems to be preventing illness, whereas for many of the diseases we vaccinate for (particularly for something like influenza) most people who get these diseases are fine, therefore my goal is to increase the likelihood that we are in the "fine" category, and avoid the bad outcomes that are possible. I think CDC could be doing a lot to reduce the impact of all illnesses if they put more resources into looking at, and publicizing data that's already available, on how to decrease the likelihood of bad outcomes. Most of the approaches out there work for many different illnesses, not just one at a time, so the potential impact is significant.

FWIW, I think now is the best time in the history of the planet to not vaccinate (speaking of First World nations). We have more food, better food (if we choose to eat it), more supplements to support us when we're sick, more ways to get ideas on how to treat illness, and emergency care facilities like hospitals if we need them.
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#206 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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I have received yet another paper n the mail from the Provincial Government warning me that. "This year it's a different flu season."

I have received at least 5 things in the mail so far about when to get my vaccination and their are too many commercials on TV and the radio to count.

This campain is driving me batty. How much money has been wasted on this promotional campaign that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Has anyone written to their elected member about tax money being wasted? What did the letter say?
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#207 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newmum35 View Post
So basically, in previous years, states only reported laboratory confirmed hospitalizations and deaths and this year, they are to report those as well as suspected cases.
this is definitely how our doc handled it. didn't even do a rapid flu test, because she'd treat it like flu anyway given the high false-negative rate. and then i read online about how many false negatives there normally are and that would make previous years much, much lower for confirmed cases than this year, too.
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#208 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 07:09 PM
 
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Did everyone see this


http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/he...-64189142.html


I looked at the article several times yesterday and there were quite a few comments. Today I notice it says 0 comments. Not sure why, but they were all deleted. (?)

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#209 of 635 Old 10-15-2009, 08:12 PM
 
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I am seeing the comments now. Wonder if there was a glitch in the system?

Cristina, Mama to Michael 03-16-06, Nathan 01-16-11, and an angel 01-20-09,
Go with your gut, follow your heart.
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#210 of 635 Old 10-16-2009, 02:34 AM
 
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I am seeing the comments now. Wonder if there was a glitch in the system?
Really? Weird. Its still saying 0 comments for me, and I even refreshed ... oh well, I know there were a few pages of comments, I just thought that was weird.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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