If Vaccines Were Never Invented... - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 04:55 PM
 
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I do think it is a valid point that the deaths were on the decline--very likely due to better nutrition and medical care. But there are still countries and populations that do not have adequate nutrition and/or medical care, and in those places the vaccine could be life saving.
And this touches on the problem of trying to solve poverty with a vaccine. Yes, perhaps the vaccine would prevent death from a measles complication, but would the vaccinated cohort fair better in the long run than their unvaccinated peers? There are many more diseases out there that are dangerous for malnourished children. Not only measles.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no study looking at an unvaccinated malnourished group and a vaccinated malnourished group - over time. There is this study, Low mortality after mild measles infection compared to uninfected children in rural west Africa that actually shows measles having a protective role to play in survivors.

The goal of measles eradication is a little ambitious IMO. It's not going to happen any time soon. This article raises an interesting point. Modeling the Impact of Subclinical Measles Transmission in Vaccinated Populations with Waning Immunity.

There are too many unknowns when it comes to eradicating disease with vaccines.

With regards to the OP. There have been many advances made in the field of vaccines and the development of vaccines. I think some scientists are so amazed at how much they have learned, that they don't see just how much they do not yet know. They just do not know the extent to which they are stumbling in the dark when it comes to the immune system and the impact of a vaccines on the immune system. And unfortunately, some of them are a little swollen headed and refuse to admit that they are still learning.

I believe a blind faith in vaccines has prevented people from learning how to protect their health in a general sense. I am not talking about informed parents on this board who chose to vaccinate after reviewing the literature on the diseases and the vaccines. I am talking about the people around me who believe babies are vulnerable until they have been vaccinated. And who believe that a formula fed vaccinated baby is safer than a breastfed vaccine free baby.

I think vaccines have held us back on discovering just how to look after our immune systems,and how immune systems develop and what supports and hinders their development. And they have created problems like serotype replacement and shifting epidemiology. They certainly are not the magic bullet some people think them to be. And for now it seems more vaccines are thought to be the solution to the problems created by vaccines in the first place. While people who look to understand how to support the development of a healthy immune system are often addressed as complete idiots.
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#62 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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*SNIP*

I think vaccines have held us back on discovering just how to look after our immune systems,and how immune systems develop and what supports and hinders their development. And they have created problems like serotype replacement and shifting epidemiology. They certainly are not the magic bullet some people think them to be. And for now it seems more vaccines are thought to be the solution to the problems created by vaccines in the first place. While people who look to understand how to support the development of a healthy immune system are often addressed as complete idiots.
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#63 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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I don't disagree in the least about eradicating poverty, however I do see vaccines as having their place.

Usually a multifaceted approach works best in relation to public health. Social justice is critical, but not the sole determinant.
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#64 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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I thought Vit A only had an impact when someone had a vit A deficiency? And it is effective only when given whilst a person has measles, not as a cure after blindness has occurred? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick?
I'm not sure about treating blindness with vitamin A, but my sons ND treats measles with vitamin A. He never mentioned checking to see if child is deficient first...
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#65 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 05:38 PM
 
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#66 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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can you give some citation for your millions of vaccine induced deaths?
My citation of induced deaths also include the long-term effects of vaccines like vaccines inducing cancer, which causes death. For example, the SV-40 virus in the polio vaccines causes cancer. Page 20 of Vaccines Are They Really Safe And Effective by Neil Z. ****** says:

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Experts estimated that between 1954 and 1963, 30 million to 100 million Americans and perhaps another 100 million or more people throughout the world were exposed to SV-40 through ill-conceived polio eradication campaigns.
A lot of SIDS deaths are really vaccine-induced deaths according to Dr Mendelsohn, M.D. - "My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the United States each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given children. The pertussis vaccine is the most likely villain, but it could also be one or more of the others."

and according to Viera Scheibner, PhD here http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...aspx?aid=CD12:

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In 1985 Dr. Scheibner, a former principle research scientist for the government of Australia, and her husband electrochemical engineer Leif Karlsson invented the CotWatch breathing monitor for babies who are diagnosed at risk for SIDS, or Cot Death as it is known in Australia. Over the next three years, the couple monitored hundreds of babies and studied the event reports that their CotWatch produced. By 1988 we knew that vaccines are killing babies, said Dr. Scheibner.
And according to http://thinktwice.com/sids.htm

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A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association* found that children diagnosed with asthma (a respiratory ailment not unlike SIDS) were five times more likely than not to have received pertussis vaccine.(1) Another study found that babies die at a rate eight times greater than normal within three days after getting a DPT shot.(2) The three primary doses of DPT are given at two months, four months, and six months. About 85 percent of SIDS cases occur at one through six months, with the peak incidence at age two to four months.
Page 249 in The Truth About Children's Health by Robert Bernardini, M.S. says:

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FDA Commissioner David Kessler stated that only one in 10 adverse events following vaccinations are reported...If you consider only 10 percent are reported, then the true figure could be as high as 120,000 adverse events annually...During one 20-month period 54,000 vaccine adverse events were reported to the VAERS which included 700 deaths.
For more vaccine-induced death figures see:

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/small...ck-to-Life.php - read the sections "LICENCE TO KILL" all the way through the "PHILIPPINE FIASCO" section.

http://deathbyvaccination.com/ - read the "Vaccination Blunders the Government Doesn't Want You to Know" section

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#67 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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My citation of induced deaths also include the long-term effects of vaccines like vaccines inducing cancer, which causes death. For example, the SV-40 virus in the polio vaccines causes cancer. Page 20 of Vaccines Are They Really Safe And Effective by Neil Z. ****** says:



A lot of SIDS deaths are really vaccine-induced deaths according to Dr Mendelsohn, M.D. - "My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the United States each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given children. The pertussis vaccine is the most likely villain, but it could also be one or more of the others."

and according to Viera Scheibner, PhD here http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...aspx?aid=CD12:



And according to http://thinktwice.com/sids.htm



Page 249 in The Truth About Children's Health by Robert Bernardini, M.S. says:



For more vaccine-induced death figures see:

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/small...ck-to-Life.php - read the sections "LICENCE TO KILL" all the way through the "PHILIPPINE FIASCO" section.

http://deathbyvaccination.com/ - read the "Vaccination Blunders the Government Doesn't Want You to Know" section
Not one of those 'citations' purported vaccines to be indicated in millions of deaths. None.
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Originally Posted by mommy2maya View Post
Not one of those 'citations' purported vaccines to be indicated in millions of deaths. None.
Correct me if I am wrong…

I think the point of the post is that vaccines can be ‘linked’ to deaths because of the long term effects. However the vast majority of side effects are medically ‘un-linked’, like cancer. These other issues that come up later in life are then discounted as a coincidence, when really it is the vaccine that caused it in the first place.

Am I even making sense? Can some one help me out I am so not eloquent when things are typed out

so yes they are showing 'links' i guess its just how you choose to read then (and i dont mean snark with that)

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#69 of 178 Old 11-03-2009, 09:54 PM
 
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the justification for vaccines is the huge number of deaths which would occur if we didn't vaccinate, right?

The CDC, for example, has claimed that 33,000 children's lives are saved each year because of vaccination.

On that basis, if a few children die each year from reactions to vaccines, and a few more get asthma or other chronic health problems, it is all okay, because more children would die, or get asthma or other chronic health problems if the diseases were running rampant through our society.

There are two problems with this scenario:

1) The claim that 33,000 children a year would die is based on some very shaky analysis (see articles on insidevaccines for a detailed dig through the science also see the CDC article already cited above, on the factors which reduced childhood mortality)

AND

2) The data on how many bad reactions occur from vaccination just doesn't exist, so we simply don't know if the number is tiny, or not so tiny, or actually fairly significant.

The system, as it currently functions, sucks.
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#70 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Not one of those 'citations' purported vaccines to be indicated in millions of deaths. None.
A couple of my calculations:

10,000 American SIDS deaths (vaccine-induced) per year * approx. 200 years of vaccine existence = 2,000,000 American babies killed by vaccines (this figure excludes worldwide SIDS babies, so actual figure is much larger)

700 deaths reported to VAERS in 20 months / 10% reported cases = 7,000 vaccine-induced deaths in 20 months * 240 (approximate number of 20-month periods that vaccines have been around) = 1,680,000 vaccine-induced deaths (figure also excludes worldwide numbers so actual figure is much larger)

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#71 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 09:24 AM
 
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A couple of my calculations:

10,000 American SIDS deaths (vaccine-induced) per year * approx. 200 years of vaccine existence = 2,000,000 American babies killed by vaccines (this figure excludes worldwide SIDS babies, so actual figure is much larger)

700 deaths reported to VAERS in 20 months / 10% reported cases = 7,000 vaccine-induced deaths in 20 months * 240 (approximate number of 20-month periods that vaccines have been around) = 1,680,000 vaccine-induced deaths (figure also excludes worldwide numbers so actual figure is much larger)
bunk math, at best.
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the justification for vaccines is the huge number of deaths which would occur if we didn't vaccinate, right?


No, this is not necessarily true. As I mentioned with measles (rubella) the whole point of this vax was to prevent defects of the major organ systems in fetuses... Which of course cannot be treated with vitamin A, as it can with rubeola. Rubeola, is less severe in children than in infants and adults. Again, it is the case of protecting others.

Source: Control of Communicable Diseases, James Chin

We vaccinate our children to protect other children.
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#73 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 12:51 PM
 
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Not one of those 'citations' purported vaccines to be indicated in millions of deaths. None.
If there was info that stated precisely just how many deaths were caused by vaccines...do you really think vaccines would still be around? Do you really think so many parents would still vax? No. And the precise number of deaths caused by vaccines will never be an easy thing to find because THEY don't want you to find it! This is a multi-billion corporation were dealing with here and vaccines are there seed.

Take shaken baby syndrome for instance. Babies have brain damage "all of a sudden" and some die so lets just say parents are killing there children instead of admitting this is death/brain damage by vaccination. You have to read between the lines if you want the truth. It sucks, but its the way it is.

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bunk math, at best.
I haven't seen anyone else try to total up the whole history of vaccine-induced deaths. Since you asked, I thought that I'd take my best stab at if. If you have a better idea for how to calculate the total vaccine-induced deaths throughout history through the present, please share.

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#75 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 01:27 PM
 
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I haven't seen anyone else try to total up the whole history of vaccine-induced deaths. Since you asked, I thought that I'd take my best stab at if. If you have a better idea for how to calculate the total vaccine-induced deaths throughout history through the present, please share.
You haven't seen it because it doesn't exist as you believe.
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If there was info that stated precisely just how many deaths were caused by vaccines...do you really think vaccines would still be around? Do you really think so many parents would still vax? No. And the precise number of deaths caused by vaccines will never be an easy thing to find because THEY don't want you to find it! This is a multi-billion corporation were dealing with here and vaccines are there seed.

Take shaken baby syndrome for instance. Babies have brain damage "all of a sudden" and some die so lets just say parents are killing there children instead of admitting this is death/brain damage by vaccination. You have to read between the lines if you want the truth. It sucks, but its the way it is.
if that is what you chose to believe, I don't have anything further to say, because obviously you are making up the 'truths' that you chose to believe in. There is no scientific data to support what you are saying.
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#77 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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What, now you want like scientific proof or something before people can go around claiming that something is scientifically proven?

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One of the options for an answer from my third grader's last science test was 'if you believe it is the truth and not false'. That was the wrong answer. The right answer was 'if it has been scientifically proven to be true'. Made me think of this thread................
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You haven't seen it because it doesn't exist as you believe.
Could you please clarify what doesn't exist?

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There is no scientific data to support what you are saying.
That is because science has very little understanding of what immunity is and what makes a strong immune system. So of course there is no data if science doesn't even understand it.

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One of the options for an answer from my third grader's last science test was 'if you believe it is the truth and not false'. That was the wrong answer. The right answer was 'if it has been scientifically proven to be true'. Made me think of this thread................
I believe that your teacher's thinking is flawed in that it failed to allow for science's learning curve. When it comes to understanding the immune system and immune system function, science is still at the bottom of the learning curve.

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I would agree with that, I think we have a ways to go before we understand many things about the human body.
However, if 'science' doesn't understand it, and there have been few studies, then why do you?
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I would agree with that, I think we have a ways to go before we understand many things about the human body.
However, if 'science' doesn't understand it, and there have been few studies, then why do you?
Because nutrition is key in any immune enhancing program. Science ignores nutrition's role in affecting immune system function.

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Because nutrition is key in any immune enhancing program. Science ignores nutrition's role in affecting immune system function.
Science certainly does not discount or ignore nutrition's role in affecting immune system function. Otherwise, there would be no recommended daily allowances of fruits/veggies/vitamins in general, to maintain health. Also, it is duly noted that increased nutrition in the 19th/20th centuries are the key in decreasing many diseases which used to plague children/adults previously, namely rickets, scurvy, and many others. There have been scads of scientific studies that well noted for discovering why certain foods are good for you, and why others are bad bad bad. It is all over the news, all over everywhere. Eat better for a healthier you.
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How do you know that?
If not by some sort of science then it is just speculation on your part.

BTW, I am not doubting the importance of good nutrition on health, and I do think it has been greatly overlooked, but we know know that it is important because of...You guessed it...science. And we are still way behind what we need to know, and need a lot more research in that area.
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Science certainly does not discount or ignore nutrition's role in affecting immune system function. Otherwise, there would be no recommended daily allowances of fruits/veggies/vitamins in general, to maintain health. Also, it is duly noted that increased nutrition in the 19th/20th centuries are the key in decreasing many diseases which used to plague children/adults previously, namely rickets, scurvy, and many others. There have been scads of scientific studies that well noted for discovering why certain foods are good for you, and why others are bad bad bad. It is all over the news, all over everywhere. Eat better for a healthier you.
That is the other problem. Science has very little understanding of proper nutrition. If science visited the MDC Traditional Foods forum, science would have a fit over eating fat-soluble vitamins, saturated fat, cholesterol, raw fermented food and many other nutrient-dense foods.

Dr. Mercola says here that science ignore nutrition

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Vaccinations are biological agents made from the filth of the earth, from diseased organs and sick animals and people. These toxins are injected in a person in order to increase their antibodies against that disease and produce immunity. Yet, scientist have very little understanding of what immunity is and what makes a strong immune system. Nutrition is key in any immune enhancing program, but they ignore nutrition (herbs/vitamins/foods) in favor of profitable injections. Vaccines do more to "sensitize" than to "immunize" for they contain many toxic ingredients which cause sensitizing reactions, like allergies and anaphylaxis.
from http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/statistics.htm

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How do you know that?
If not by some sort of science then it is just speculation on your part.

BTW, I am not doubting the importance of good nutrition on health, and I do think it has been greatly overlooked, but we know know that it is important because of...You guessed it...science. And we are still way behind what we need to know, and need a lot more research in that area.
I suggest visiting the Traditional Foods forum here on MDC. It is an extremely popular forum on MDC with lots of new posts every day. The healthiest civilizations from all over the world have already been researched, documented, photographed and their diets examined. These people are in perfect health and are resistant to disease. It is due to their nutrient-dense diets that are rich in fat-soluble vitamins. Science ignores all of that. Nothing is speculation on my part.

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See, and I would say all of those things are just speculation. Maybe the people eating those foods are hurting themselves...maybe not. We really don't know either way.

I will agree that nutrition is often vastly overlooked, and we need more research on it. The limited amount that we do know about nutrition is due to science.
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I suggest visiting the Traditional Foods forum here on MDC. It is an extremely popular forum on MDC with lots of new posts every day. The healthiest civilizations from all over the world have already been researched, documented, photographed and their diets examined. These people are in perfect health and are resistant to disease. It is due to their nutrient-dense diets that are rich in fat-soluble vitamins. Science ignores all of that. Nothing is speculation on my part.


That is science, is it not?
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See, and I would say all of those things are just speculation. Maybe the people eating those foods are hurting themselves...maybe not. We really don't know either way.
Based on what is documented in the book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, they weren't hurting. They were in perfect health. No diseases.

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That is science, is it not?
Exactly, it is science. The Weston A. Price Foundation is based on science. But what I was speaking of before was about "conventional science" ignoring nutrition.

Traditional & nutrient-dense foods/Weston A. Price Foundation advocate, Reiki II practitioner, EFT practitioner, past life & life between lives Hypnotherapist practitioner. Home birth with DD 2007 = never vaccinated, breastfed 3 years

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#90 of 178 Old 11-04-2009, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovebug View Post
Disease IS here for a reason! It is to weed out the sick and allow for evolution to take place with the strongest of the strong to reproduce.
By this reasoning, no disease should ever be treated in a person of child-bearing age or younger.
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