Must military dependants be vax'd? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My brother is in the Navy, and is out to sea. SIL took niece (almost 6m) to the ER (some of the details are sketchy, as told through my mother) last week. According to my mother, the ER Dr yelled at SIL for not having niece's vaxs up to date and even though niece was sick, they gave her a few. My mom is under the assumption that military dependents do not have a choice, but I thought it was only the member who must. I'm looking for some good simple info as well to send SIL about vaxing.
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#2 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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I'm a military dependent, and we just stopped vaxing. I may get a questionable look here and there, but I haven't gotten any grief behind it. I even submitted my birth plan recently with NO VACCINATIONS written boldly across the top, and my ob/gyn basically told me the ped would want to talk to me about some of the things I was refusing. Other than that, I haven't had anyone but family members give me a hard time.

This is the Immunizations and Chemoprophylaxis regulations for vaccinations.
http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/969r40_562.pdf

I would probably file a complaint about the doctor's behavior. Yelling is not required to voice an opinion. If she felt bullied into getting vaxed, and the child had a severe reaction, what would happen? No one needs to be pressured to make those type of decisions under intimidation.
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#3 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks. I skimmed through there - my munchkins are not wanting me to read too much right now and I didn't see much about dependents, except for this
Quote:
Family members receive immunizations according to current ACIP
recommendations. The ACIP recommendations are available at the CDC Web site (http://www.cdc.gov/nip) or the
Military Vaccine Office Web site (http://www.vaccines.mil). In addition, family members may be subject to Service–
specific requirements/recommendations for immunizations applicable to the country in which they will reside
while accompanying military members under military sponsorship.
I don't know if that is to mean they MUST or just a recommendation. SIL has no backbone, but I wanted to pass info on to my brother who has enough for both.
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#4 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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Former military family here: No, dependents stateside are not required to be vaccinated. BUT, if they are going to another country overseas it was my understanding that if you wanted to accompany the military member then they may be required.

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#5 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nope, they are stateside and have no orders. He's actually separating in the late spring. I am wondering if SIL mistook them saying that niece was behind as them really saying that they are in trouble and must catch up.
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#6 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 07:53 PM
 
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So no, she doesn't need to vax if she doesn't want to.

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#7 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 08:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hey Mama! View Post
Former military family here: No, dependents stateside are not required to be vaccinated. BUT, if they are going to another country overseas it was my understanding that if you wanted to accompany the military member then they may be required.
The only vaccinations required are those required by the host country. I do not know of any country that dependents can go to that requires visitors to get any vaccination for entry.

OP: Your SIL should file an ICE complaint about how she was treated in the ER.

"Remember that you can file ICE reports online for ANY bad and good experiences you have at any military facility (military doctor, the commissary, exchange, etc.). They will always follow up on your report and try to remedy the situation. The ICE system is done through DOD and stands for Interactive Customer Evaluation."
http://ice.disa.mil/

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#8 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 09:09 PM
 
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I honestly just think it depends on the doctor and the installation. I have a friend who was told she could not come overseas if her children weren't up to date on their vaxes (she tried to claim religious exemption and was told she'd have to fight for it which could take over 2 years. . .and wouldn't be able to go overseas until then). However, another family might not have any problems when they go to the doc and try to get a religious exemption (I see threads like this all the time here on MDC). We are civilians so we don't have to have the medical check before coming overseas, but for entry into base schools we are supposed to have it. Once I took DS to the doctor. He had pneumonia. The doc found out he wasn't vaxed and went into a tirade about how I was going to kill my child, how many people she's seen die of VPDs (even describing some of the deaths in detail), how much harder it is to treat my DS because he wasn't vaxed (because she now had to think about VPDs), and how my DS might die. She lectured me for 20 minutes at least while my DS was having trouble breathing and was in such bad shape. The evening ended with her sending me to the local hospital and telling me she wasn't sure if DS would last the night (the hospital actually gave us some meds and sent us home. . .we had to go back 2 days later and have DS admitted but he was okay). We had another doctor here who insisted to know what religion we were since we said we had a religious exemption then when we stupidly told her she went on to say that she had once been that religion and there was nothing in their tenet about vaxes (but she never gave us a hard time except for that). Now we've gotten to the point that we tell all the base docs that we only discuss vaccinating with our doctor back in the states and that seems to work.

Barbara:  an always learning SAHM of Ilana (11) and Aiden (8) living in Belgium with my amazing husband.

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#9 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 09:14 PM
 
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Total BS, family members do not need to get vaccines at all. We are active duty family members and there is no law - the active duty spouse signed up and his body away, but not his family! I have heard of a couple times when military doctors told families it is law and they have to, which is untrue and an utter and shameful lie. Your SIL should file a huge ICE complaint right away and make a huge stink about this. I would.
The base totally accepts my choice, they try to talk me into it every time I'm there but I ignore it. They never threatened me though nor told me lies about laws and stuff. Crazy.
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#10 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 09:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmeline II View Post
The only vaccinations required are those required by the host country. I do not know of any country that dependents can go to that requires visitors to get any vaccination for entry.

OP: Your SIL should file an ICE complaint about how she was treated in the ER.

"Remember that you can file ICE reports online for ANY bad and good experiences you have at any military facility (military doctor, the commissary, exchange, etc.). They will always follow up on your report and try to remedy the situation. The ICE system is done through DOD and stands for Interactive Customer Evaluation."
http://ice.disa.mil/
I know, I guess I didn't convey that clearly in my last post. I guess I don't consider a family who is stationed in another country as a visitor but I'm sure I'm wrong. But, we did our overseas placement in Hawaii so I wasn't 100% sure on my info.

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#11 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 11:28 PM
 
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treemom-I am so sorry you had to deal w/ that. If you could file a complaint, I would.
Op-she shouldn't have been bullied. Yelling-that's just wrong from the dr. And if the child was sick-he should have known better. It's right there in the AAP not to give a vax to a sick child, if that's what they go by.
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#12 of 26 Old 12-08-2009, 11:31 PM
 
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we are AirForce and have been stationed 'overseas' and in the US my son is 'selectively vax'd' with NO probs at all. Last time we went to the clinic they said 'Do you want him to get the Heb B vax' and I just said 'oh no thanks' and that was that. NO issues what so ever.

My friends kids (2 and 3 years old) have had ZERO vaccinations and she has had a letter from the clinic 'reminding her' but that is all. No real problems at all.

Mummy to Samuel 02/08 and new baby Molly- 04/10
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#13 of 26 Old 12-09-2009, 12:46 AM
 
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Oh yeah bubba, we get cards from them too. I got one for HiB and one for the flu... Saying my kid is eligible for it. I get annoyed, tear them apart and toss them. Oh well what a waste of taxpayer money!
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#14 of 26 Old 12-09-2009, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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She's not at all wanting to delay/select/not do vaxs. She's not the type to do anything different than the way her mama did it - no Bfing, the list goes on. I just don't want her to rush into 'catching up' just because some nutcase Dr says she has to.
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#15 of 26 Old 12-09-2009, 09:09 AM
 
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We've lived in Korea and are now in Germany and neither of our children have been vaxed at all (ages 3 and 1). We've also been very blessed to never have an issue with it, besides some strange looks.
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#16 of 26 Old 12-11-2009, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was able to get an email to my brother. He said that while he's not wanting to vax for everything, he can go to Captain's Mast for neglect. In VA, if I read right, there is only medical exception, not anything else. I do know he has had a really rough time with his commanding officer (not sure of what term they use). When his daughter was born, he had to have documentation from the Dr to give him any paternity leave.
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#17 of 26 Old 12-11-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by isign View Post
I was able to get an email to my brother. He said that while he's not wanting to vax for everything, he can go to Captain's Mast for neglect. In VA, if I read right, there is only medical exception, not anything else. I do know he has had a really rough time with his commanding officer (not sure of what term they use). When his daughter was born, he had to have documentation from the Dr to give him any paternity leave.

It is not medical neglect ANYWHERE to knowledgeably not vaccinate your child.

The military cannot compel a member to vaccinate his children. I know someone on another board (Army-overseas) whose dh was threated with a Captain's Mast type thing, but they ultimately had to drop it as they had no grounds; she was ready to go to the IG.

An exemption is not necessary except to use certain military facilities (like DODS and the CDC), or, in civilian life, for school. VA does have a religious exemption option.

The Navy has been particularly hard on non-vaxing dependents this year; especially involving command sponsorship overseas. The Air force seems the most hands off except for childcare.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#18 of 26 Old 12-11-2009, 03:57 PM
 
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My husband is active duty military and none of my kids have ever had a vaccine. I don't get flu shots (I'm allergic) and I have never had an issue with either. I did have one doc say a few sentences that politely conveyed that he felt I should be vaxing but it wasn't an issue. The ped we have now on base is very natural and she thinks it's great that we don't vax - she even yelled at the immunization people after I mentioned that they were giving rotovirus vaccines to parents to give their kids orally in the waiting room. It's a live virus vaccine!

It is correct that if dependents want to accompany their sponsor overseas they have to receive the vaccines required by the host country. I know Japan does not have any but I'm not sure about other countries. The DOD cannot force anyone to vaccinate but they do have the right to refuse use of services, like child care and schools. For a SAHM homeschooling family this would not be an issue but I could see it becoming one for a family that needs to use those facilities.
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#19 of 26 Old 12-11-2009, 04:14 PM
 
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The short answer to that is "it depends". A previous poster linked to the document we got from the CDC when we looked in to temporary on- and off-base drop-in childcare. If I want to use a CDC provider, my kid needs to get an H1N1 vaccination, provided by DoD. OH NOES WHAT WILL I DO! Just kidding. It depends. The religious exemption is somewhat difficult for some to obtain though. Depends on how nuts they go verifying the info in the forms and how they decide to interpret intent. I'll start vaccinating against largely seasonal issues when someone invents a vaccination for Thanksgiving Dinner or peppermint oreos. Or pumpkin/eggnog milkshakes. I'll vax for that.
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#20 of 26 Old 12-11-2009, 04:47 PM
 
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NO!!! The military cannot REQUIRE dependents to do ANYTHING! They can however withhold certain benefits if you don't follow their rules. It is very difficult to use any CDC programs, or certain sport programs if your child is not up to date on their shots. But they cannot MAKE you vaccinate your child. I'm an "Army wife" of 8 yrs, and a former soldier myself. The military can bully, coerce and arm twist with the best, but if you are willing to forgo some of their programs and take whatever losses might come with that, none of their orders apply to family members.

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#21 of 26 Old 12-12-2009, 12:00 PM
 
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This is infuriating... That commanding officer is a bully and liar. Terrible to deal with.

I want to sum up what was mentioned here before. You only are required to vaccinate in the military if:

1) You go to a country that requires vaccines. I don't know any. Neither Japan nor Germany require any shots.

2) You want to enroll your child in base childcare or schools. There are however religious waivers that you can file.

That all dependents have to be vaccinated is an utter lie and does not apply, ever. This officer should be reported and a huge stink and complaint should be made immediately.
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#22 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 12:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mntnmom View Post
NO!!! The military cannot REQUIRE dependents to do ANYTHING! They can however withhold certain benefits if you don't follow their rules. It is very difficult to use any CDC programs, or certain sport programs if your child is not up to date on their shots. But they cannot MAKE you vaccinate your child. I'm an "Army wife" of 8 yrs, and a former soldier myself. The military can bully, coerce and arm twist with the best, but if you are willing to forgo some of their programs and take whatever losses might come with that, none of their orders apply to family members.
Yep they sure can & do bully. We were "forced" to catch up on vaccines when coming here to Japan. We were moving to JP a couple of months after DH moved here & they absolutely would not sign off on our FEA/non-concurrent travel until proof of passports & updated shots were received. After fighting with them for a couple of months, we gave in & got the shots. As much as we didn't want all of the shots, being with DH was much more important for us since we had already lived without him for 3 1/2 years. We are also not a homeschooling family so the kids being able to attend DODDS school was also important to us.

It is beyond ridiculous to me that there as much bullying as there is! We've already filed many complaints.

*Momma to a spunky 11 year old & diva 9 year old
*Proud wife of "The Rock"
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#23 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 12:10 PM
 
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Are you Navy? They are way more oppressive about that. And in the end they don't force you to get the shots, they will just deny command sponsorship. Sure, that means you cannot go to Japan or God knows where.
If they ever put us in that situation, I would find a doctor in Germany that helps me faking the records or I will call ACLU. As much as I hate that group, I wouldn't mind hiring evil lawyers, call TV stations and make such a HUGE stink that the military wishes they had never pestered us about it. I'm in PR, I know how to make a good stink. I don't care whether DH would approve or not - I am not military property nor their puppet.
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#24 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 01:41 PM
 
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We are also not a homeschooling family so the kids being able to attend DODDS school was also important to us.

It is beyond ridiculous to me that there as much bullying as there is! We've already filed many complaints.
DODDS has very clear exemption protocol.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#25 of 26 Old 12-21-2009, 01:49 PM
 
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QUOTE=nia82;14826571]Are you Navy? They are way more oppressive about that. And in the end they don't force you to get the shots, they will just deny command sponsorship. Sure, that means you cannot go to Japan or God knows where.
If they ever put us in that situation, I would find a doctor in Germany that helps me faking the records or I will call ACLU. As much as I hate that group, I wouldn't mind hiring evil lawyers, call TV stations and make such a HUGE stink that the military wishes they had never pestered us about it. I'm in PR, I know how to make a good stink. I don't care whether DH would approve or not - I am not military property nor their puppet.[/QUOTE]

If on base efforts proved fruitless I would file an IG complaint; contacting one's congressman has the same result (found that out myself once ) Dependent vaccination is not a requirement, only vaccines required by the host country (there are none), and if they made it a requirement that would certainly require a big stink involving the media.

One person here ultimately received a letter from the Navy that basically said that they just wanted to make sure sending unvaxed dependents would not cause an international incident, and her dh received orders for the overseas location that the Navy tried to deny them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
VACCINATION STATUS: Command Sponsorship and Dependent Travel

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyrn5 View Post
Because of the AFIs you posted, I was able to locate a few more AFIs. Everything I read said that dependents have to get whatever vaxes are required for entry into that particular country (Japanese Encephalitis for Japan, for example), but I couldn't find anything anywhere that stated a dependent's vaxes must be up to date in order to get command sponsorship or for the military to purchase the dependent's plane tickets. I also found, through my research, that this seems to be a common "threat" people are hearing lately. I am beginning to think that this is one of those things like people telling you your kids can't go to school without being vaxed. It isn't true, but people hear it, they believe it, they repeat it. But at the heart of it is a veiled attempt to scare people into vaxing their kids. I also finally spoke with someone at Outbound Assignments at the base. She said that if you get medical clearance, they cut the orders and buy the tickets. Since I went through the medical clearance process last year, I know that dependent's vax records aren't looked at in that process.

Thanks, again, for all the pubs you listed. They were a huge help!

Kathy
AFI 36-2110 Assignments
AFI 36-3020 Family Member Travel
AFI 36-2102 Base-level Relocation Procedures
AFCSM 36-699 Volume I

[DOC]

"Remember that you can file ICE reports online for ANY bad and good experiences you have at any military facility (military doctor, the commissary, exchange, etc.). They will always follow up on your report and try to remedy the situation. The ICE system is done through DOD and stands for Interactive Customer Evaluation."
http://ice.disa.mil/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COMMAND SPONSORSHIP

www.48fss.com/DNN/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=AnFg2fIO99U%3D&tabid= 138&mid=711 -

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY
ASSIGNMENT
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...s/1300.14D.pdf

DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/swmi/Documents/Overseas%20Screening(Encl%204).pdf
http://www.militaryhomefront.dod.mil...NT/1601311.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NAVY/JAPAN INFORMATION

I did a search on the mothering.com vax board for "navy"; just look for my responses... I think the first one has my general miltary childcare vaccination information; the second has Navy/Japan information.

Navy PCS 1

Navy PCS 2

Navy Search
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quick update:
We just went for our overseas screening (VA to Japan). We sel/delay vax. We are Navy. We were told we HAD to get kids up to date on all vax per CDC/WHO recs or they would not sign the Form 1300-2 form for the immunizations. it was an Army reg (not sure which one - dh may remember) which clearly stated they must be current per the CDC recommendations.

Quote:

All that I have read up to this point said that the vaccinations are

recommendations (except those required by the host country, which there are none) and are not requirements per reg (though you can be denied assignment for any reason).

NAVMED 13001/2; it says that immunization requirements are "assignment specific" and "meet destination country requirements" (there are none required by Japan).

I've known at least 4 people on another are in Japan or going; and they are all Navy and not vaxing! Not all Navy dependents to Japan are being treated the same; at least this treatment is very recent (since about Jan 09). Oddly enough, though they cited an Army reg. I don't know any overseas Army dependents with this problem; it's just the Navy.

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY
ASSIGNMENT
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...s/1300.14D.pdf


DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/swmi/Documents/Overseas%20Screening(Encl%204).pdf

Be aware that the Army regulation sprung on Paniscus concerned DOD schools, CDC daycares, and other childminding institutions that had nothing to do with dependents getting a medical clearance for an overseas accompanied tour/ to deny a medical clearance for an overseas tour: (Army Regulation 40–562
BUMEDINST 6230.15A
AFJI 48–110
CG COMDTINST M6230.4F
http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/969r40_562.pdf).
It's like saying "you cannot include pianos in your household goods and this regulation, regarding pcsing with pets, backs up my statement."


___________________________________________


Advice from an Officer:


Quote:
I just hate being condescended to. But I know my rights, and for whatever reason, in the experiences I've seen with me and my sister, they tend to not try to push around officers/officers wives as much as enlisted. My sister said they tried fear tactics all the time with her when her DH was enlisted, but never when he was an officer. And having been enlisted and an officer, I've seen that as well.


Just don't accept that answer. I really don't believe that they can refuse to PCS you overseas because you or your children aren't vaccinated.



If this happened to me, this is the order in which I would take action:



  • Contact my DH's chain of command to see if they can work the situation
  • Then make an IG complaint if that didn't work
  • Write to my congressman if that failed
  • Lastly contact the media

http://www.cafemom.com/group/4388/fo...ext=11#replies
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#26 of 26 Old 05-24-2014, 08:39 AM
 
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Bumping thispost in hopes somebody has a recent experience with no vaxxing and an overseas assignment.


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