The Lancet retracts vaccine autism study - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 23 Old 02-04-2010, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So what do you gals think about the latest news that the Lancet retracted a study done which relates MMR to autism?

My DS is not vaxed at all, and I am looking for additional info to protect myself against family members who are ready to fight me on this.

Of course, study or no study, my heart tells me not to vax my LO.

Any thoughts?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ncet_0204.html

Wife to - Mama to DS 6/08 and DS 9/11
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#2 of 23 Old 02-04-2010, 07:18 PM
 
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listen to your heart is my advice

There is so much more going on with the Lancet study and the whole GMC trial. We can't get into it here per the guidelines of MDC but just know that there is more going on than what you are being told via the media. If it is the MMR that concerns you, I suggest farmilarizing yourself with the 3 diseases, their prevalance and how serious they really here in otherwise healthy children. In fact do that for ALL the VPD's. Good luck in your desicion!

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#3 of 23 Old 02-04-2010, 07:23 PM
 
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Here is a thought . . .

When reading up on autism I came across a study I think out of stockholm where they looked at epidurals in the states as a cause.

Just putting it out there - I don't know if I can find it again but I thought it was interesting.

What if it's a combo effect. Something where the combined effect of an epidural and vax???
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#4 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 01:44 AM
 
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Yes, there is evidence that labor that is augmented by pitocin/cytotec causes learning disabilities or hyperactivity. Not sure where I read that before, but there it is.

I suspect autism is a combination of iatrogenic factors in our environment.
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#5 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 02:24 AM
 
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this is my own personal opinion, but I don't think it is the MMR shot *by itself* that causes autism...I do believe that for some children the MMR shot can be the straw that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, when given after the barrage of vaccines already received during the first year of life.

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#6 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 07:29 AM
 
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My DS is 100% unvaccinated but I still do not believe that vaccines are the only cause of autism (if at all!).

Autism is caused by a number of factors, including a severe Vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy or/and in early infanthood, EMFs, excessive TV viewing and possibly prenatal ultrasounds: Questions about Prenatal Ultrasound and the Alarming Increase in Autism.

Vaccines can of course aggravate a pre-existing condition and result in autism, but I doubt if they can cause autism in an otherwise healthy toddler.

The main reason that I do not vaccinate is not that I fear so much the side-effects of the dangerous vaccine ingredients. If a baby is healthy enough the damage is probably minimal.

I fear though vaccines' interference on my baby's growing immune system. It just sounds so unnatural to me to artificially stimulate his system with something that has not even proved effective. I prefer to naturally strengthen his immune system with proper nutrition, sunshine, exercise, avoidance of environmental toxins etc.
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#7 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gingercat View Post
My DS is 100% unvaccinated but I still do not believe that vaccines are the only cause of autism (if at all!).

Autism is caused by a number of factors, including a severe Vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy or/and in early infanthood, EMFs, excessive TV viewing and possibly prenatal ultrasounds: Questions about Prenatal Ultrasound and the Alarming Increase in Autism.

Vaccines can of course aggravate a pre-existing condition and result in autism, but I doubt if they can cause autism in an otherwise healthy toddler.

The main reason that I do not vaccinate is not that I fear so much the side-effects of the dangerous vaccine ingredients. If a baby is healthy enough the damage is probably minimal.

I fear though vaccines' interference on my baby's growing immune system. It just sounds so unnatural to me to artificially stimulate his system with something that has not even proved effective. I prefer to naturally strengthen his immune system with proper nutrition, sunshine, exercise, avoidance of environmental toxins etc.
Me, either. The child in our family who is very low functioning autistic has never been vaxed. I would be wary of vaxes for the other reasons you describe.
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#8 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 08:29 PM
 
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To tell the truth, until we KNOW for sure what causes autism, everything needs to stay on the table as a cause, so as far as I am concerned, vaccines, et al, are still suspect.
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#9 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gingercat View Post

Autism is caused by a number of factors, including a severe Vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy or/and in early infanthood, EMFs, excessive TV viewing and possibly prenatal ultrasounds: Questions about Prenatal Ultrasound and the Alarming Increase in Autism.

Excuse me for being blunt, but do you have any actual real evidence for these claims? Because I've been in the autism field for a long time...nearly a decade, as a practitioner and now as a doctoral-level student/researcher. Oh, and I'm also the mother of a 6 year old with autism. It'd be great if it was just as simple as you said. But I wasn't vitamin d deficient during my pregnancy (and judging from the fact that my son was outdoors in the bright sunlight way more than most babies would have been, I would be willing to bet he was not either), my son was autistic before he ever saw one single television show, and between my 3 pregnancies, I can tell you there was a definite difference in his temperament even in utero...so before anything in the outside world could really come in contact with him....

So, I'd be willing to see your statistics that back up your claims. Because like I said, I've been in the field a LONG time. In all my doctoral research, I have *never* seen a solid study to back up ANY of your claims. So you can only say that you *hypothesize* about the cause of autism. You do not KNOW the cause of autism. You can not look at my son (or my 6 year old nephew who is on the spectrum, but my sister lived halfway across the country from me while we were pregnant) and tell me you KNOW what caused the autism. If you can, then you need to be publishing that in some peer reviewed journals so that all of the research money can stop going into researching a cause....

It's all hypothetical. And there are a million different presentations of autism....there are probably at least a dozen if not more different "causes" as well. Autism isn't like the measles....for as many children that have autism, you have that many different "forms" of it.

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#10 of 23 Old 02-05-2010, 11:15 PM
 
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The vitamin D deficiency claim is from researchers noting that the Somalians in Minnesota and Sweden, i.e., cold climates, have high rates of autism.

Vitamin D deficiency is ricketts, a bone deformity disease.

Until we all know for sure what causes autism, everything is suspect, including vaccines, epidurals, ultrasound, and clinical deficiencies of vitamin D. Nothing can be eliminated from the research.
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#11 of 23 Old 02-06-2010, 05:19 AM
 
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Until we all know for sure what causes autism, everything is suspect, including vaccines, epidurals, ultrasound, and clinical deficiencies of vitamin D. Nothing can be eliminated from the research.
I agree with this. We do not have solid evidence and I doubt if we ever will because of the complexity of the issue, but we do have "clues".

AllyRae if you go to Dr. Mercola's site and do a quick search for autism hundrends of studies would show up that raise suspicions on the factors mentioned here.
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#12 of 23 Old 02-06-2010, 12:49 PM
 
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I must admit, the one about TV watching made me chuckle; my autie has been absolutely terrified of the TV since he was an infant... guess I can rule that one out
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#13 of 23 Old 02-06-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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Please remember to remain on topic for this forum regarding vaccines.
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#14 of 23 Old 02-06-2010, 08:50 PM
 
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Until we all know for sure what causes autism, everything is suspect, including vaccines, epidurals, ultrasound, and clinical deficiencies of vitamin D. Nothing can be eliminated from the research.
Agreed. But the problem comes when people just start stating that x, y and z causes autism, without any credible research to back that up. While vaccines MAY contribute/cause autism, it may not. Same with epidurals, ultrasounds, and vit d deficiencies and a million other things. This just kinda reeks of "play the blame game" and, usually, the blame comes back on the mom (for getting an epidural, getting ultrasounds, not taking baby in the sun enough, allowing vaccines, etc). As a mom of a child with autism (and my sis is AllyRae so my nephew also has autism) this kind of thinking/implications just sucks.

My future MIL is famous for this. She has now decided that my ds has autism because future MIL believes that I was fed formula in a plastic bottle when I was a baby and THAT is what caused ds's autism.

While that has a possibility of being true, that me being fed out of a plastic bottle caused ds's autism, it may not. Future MIL made the assumption that I was fed with a bottle (as opposed to breastfeeding) AND that the bottle was plastic (as opposed to glass). Future MIL does not know if either of those 2 assumptions are true, but she's convinced herself that they are and that's the cause of ds's autism.

These assumptions are dangerous for everyone involved, so it really hits me the wrong way when people start assuming they know the cause of autism.

Steph, DH Jason (1-1-11), DS Owen (10-3-03) and DS Kai (10-13-11)

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#15 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 06:00 AM
 
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These assumptions are dangerous for everyone involved, so it really hits me the wrong way when people start assuming they know the cause of autism.
Same thing with miscarriages, cancer and so many other ailments and misfortunes. The issues are so complex that I doubt if ever any study will come to a definite conclusion. I'm a researcher myself although not in medicine (have a doctoral degree and I'm currently a university professor) so I know all about the complexities of research design, analysis etc. We can detect correlations but rarely cause and effect. And of course there's always the possibility of accepting the wrong hypothesis. But still, I believe, that we cannot dismiss the studies that suggest a link, we need to be cautious of certain things but not overly worried (I'm currently pregnant again and I had an ultrasound because there was a need for it - bleeding - and I'm willing to accept an epidural and a C-section if it is necessary and I will not allow anyone to judge me for it ).
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#16 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 12:48 PM
 
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The hard line to draw is between necessary interventions and unnecessary ones. I think routine ultrasound is a very bad idea, but in some cases it really is necessary.

Routine hep b at birth is a bad idea. If the mother tests positive, it may be the best solution available.

I'm very concerned about the endless attempts to rule vaccines out of the autism discussion without doing proper studies. That seems like a cover up, to me.
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#17 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 01:00 PM
 
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I'm OK with them retracting the study, even as the rabid vax fanatics are relishing the cheap political points that they're scoring with this move. But isn't wailing about Wakefield's (legitimate!) conflict of interest sort of the pot calling the kettle black? How many studies would be left if we weeded all of the ones with pharmaceutical sponsorship?

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#18 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 01:04 PM
 
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It is worse than that.

Anyone remember the experimental study from two or three years ago? One man died and at least five more were left with severe damage.

Their paperwork was in order and the experimental team has gotten off without even a slap on the hand.
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#19 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 01:36 PM
 
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So what do you gals think about the latest news that the Lancet retracted a study done which relates MMR to autism?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ncet_0204.html
Back to the retraction issue......I think it was purely political. This sends a message to other researchers who might consider doing research related to vaccines, causes of autism, etc. If they ask certain questions, they could become a pariah. Most researchers are not willing to risk their careers to even venture into this area. This probably has a lot to do with why there aren't more studies of this area in general--at least not in the mainstream, peer-reviewed journals.

The ethical issues with his study, though not insignificant, were probably not extreme outliers for that time. At least in the US, the institutional review board (IRB) requirements for research have become much stricter since the mid 90's. I would guess that there has been a parallel increase in ethical review requirements in the UK during this time. Probably many studies published in peer-reviewed journals from the 90's might not hold up under current IRB scrutiny.

It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.
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#20 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 02:12 PM
 
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I too can see the problems with the study, ethically. However both in the statements from the retraction of the interpretation and now the retraction of the study itself, no mention is made of poor science or deviation from the scientific method.

The reasons come across as political in the retraction of the interpretation and concern for ethical procedures in the retraction of the study. However, no mention is made of the science.

And yeah, it is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Medical research is riddled with ethical problems/conflicts of interest. This certainly was not the first and no doubt will not be the last. What it is interesting is that such a huge investment was made in bringing the ethical problems with this study to light, while accepting the ethical problems of studies that do not threaten public health initiatives like vaccines.... well not retracting the studies outright anyway.

Phenomena of Retraction

This does seem to be a highly unusual case.

ETA: Retracting the study for the reasons given does not mean that the MMR never is linked with autism. At least I am not seeing it like that. It does mean any link between vaccines and poor health of vaccinated children is 'not allowed', or beyond the realm of scientific inquiry

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#21 of 23 Old 02-07-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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This just kinda reeks of "play the blame game" and, usually, the blame comes back on the mom (for getting an epidural, getting ultrasounds, not taking baby in the sun enough, allowing vaccines, etc). As a mom of a child with autism (and my sis is AllyRae so my nephew also has autism) this kind of thinking/implications just sucks.
This, to me, is one of the single biggest problems. As an activist for better maternity care, when I want to cite the risks of various medical interventions during pre-natal care and labor, I am not blaming the mom who chooses them. I am angry at the widespread endorsement most obstetricians give these procedures outside their intended use without offering every patient truly informed consent.

They are MORE than happy to share the risks of a VBAC but are usually quiet when educating about the risks of pitocin, epidurals, and c-sections.

Until there is ONE epidemiological study following sectioned babies for auto-immune and neurological disorders compared with those babies that were home-birthed or birthed at birth centers with no interventions, including antibiotics, we are blind. That study would make my job ALOT easier.

::: Just another WAHM using this forum to put off picking up toys and cleaning my house.
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#22 of 23 Old 02-09-2010, 01:03 PM
 
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does anyone have the link to the lancet editorial itself? I would like to write a letter to the editor. Personally I am concerned about this para, which I saw quoted in the NY Times:

"We are going to see many, many more vaccines available to the general public, and we all have to be very vigilant about making sure that we build trust and confidence in these vaccines which are going to transform the landscape of health over the next generation."

fwiw here is the link to the original study, now RETRACTED: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...10960/fulltext

no longer  or  or ... dd is going on 12 (!) how was I to know there was a homeschool going on?
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#23 of 23 Old 02-10-2010, 12:50 PM
 
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does anyone have the link to the lancet editorial itself? I would like to write a letter to the editor. Personally I am concerned about this para, which I saw quoted in the NY Times:

"We are going to see many, many more vaccines available to the general public, and we all have to be very vigilant about making sure that we build trust and confidence in these vaccines which are going to transform the landscape of health over the next generation."
I'm concerned, too. The autism factor never actually played into my decision to put my children on an alternative vaccination schedule. But I'm disturbed by what this quote conveys---"build[ing] trust and confidence" trumps any consideration of producing safe vaccines based on sound science.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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