Wall of Shame for Pro-Vax Cliches - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-05-2010, 06:30 PM
 
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I totally agree with this. I really believe that we co-evolved with a lot of these diseases and the others we didnt co-evolve with arised due to bad hygeine and nutrition.


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Humans are actually biologically equipped to resist disease in many ways. We aren't just sitting ducks waiting for science to rescue us. And when we get ridiculously obsessed with things like anti-bacterial soap we actually increase our susceptibility. Things like vernix and jaundice are tools that newborns have that protect them from disease - along with placental immunities and colostrum and breastmilk. It's really a fabulous system and I'm sure there's a way to work with it. Recognizing when our tampering is interrupting this process is important.

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Old 05-05-2010, 07:24 PM
 
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I've wondered about this line of reasoning. If this were true, the vaccine enthusiasts would be falling all over themselves to do the vaccinated versus unvaccinated study, wouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by Blueone View Post
I was watching the news yesterday and here is a new one: Children who aren't vaccinated are prone to being sicker and having stronger symptoms during illness.

It was something alone that line. I found it to be hilarious. My son had one round of vaxes at 4 months and I wish I could take that back. But he's so healthy. He's only had 2 mild colds and spends his days crawling along the side walk and sticking his fingers in his mouth after crawling on the side walk (we always wash them once he's in though).
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:27 PM
 
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The specific concern with german measles is that it can cause birth defects if the mother contracts it while pregnant. A woman with wild-crafted immunities is much much much more likely to pass those immunities through her placenta so that her fetus has protection. The vaccine is much much much more likely to only confer immunity to the mother directly and therefore her fetus gains protection by being inside her, but not through the placenta. And then this fetus is born into the world relying solely on breastmilk for protection against rubella - which can be more dangerous in infancy. If a vaccinated mother did confer a tiny amount of immunity to rubella through her placenta, the likelihood that it would last in the infant until the MMR series was begun (but not completed) sometime around 12-18 months is low. And the likelihood that wild crafted immunities that are PRESENT in the mother, which are measured via titers checked during pregnancy so obviously you know they are there, will play a big role in protecting the infant from rubella either during the interim between the time that the MMR is administered or at least long enough to get the infant out of infancy so that it can be better able to weather a case of rubella is HIGH.
If you then vaccinate that toddler girl, she will grow up to be unlikely to craft immunities to transfer through her placenta to protect her fetus/infant. This is why vaccine preventable diseases present at younger and younger ages and our infants are at high risk of contracting life-threatening cases of vaccine preventable diseases before they are old enough to even receive the vaccine.
This is interesting to me. I'll have to research more about that--do you have any references?

My question for you is how come a lot of babies/young toddlers were getting sick/dying from the illness back before formula was common (meaning most babies were breastfed). The mothers would not have been vaccinated, so if your theory holds true, the kids should have all been protected, right? Could I see some references for your theory because I'd really love to check it out further.

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Old 05-05-2010, 07:39 PM
 
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I've wondered about this line of reasoning. If this were true, the vaccine enthusiasts would be falling all over themselves to do the vaccinated versus unvaccinated study, wouldn't they?

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of psychic tools they are using to say child any given child would have had a more or less mild case of any disease based on thier vax status.

Child A vaccinated - who's to say they wouldn't have had a mild case anyway
Child B vax free - who's to say their illness would have been milder if they had been vaccinated?

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Old 05-05-2010, 07:41 PM
 
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This is interesting to me. I'll have to research more about that--do you have any references?

My question for you is how come a lot of babies/young toddlers were getting sick/dying from the illness back before formula was common (meaning most babies were breastfed). The mothers would not have been vaccinated, so if your theory holds true, the kids should have all been protected, right? Could I see some references for your theory because I'd really love to check it out further.
I'm specifically talking about the german measles and how the mother's immunities protect infants. It wasn't the babies who were getting rubella. Rubella is mostly a concern because it can cause birth defects in the fetus if a pregnant mother gets it. It's a fairly mild disease comparatively and doesn't have a high fever like other diseases in the measles family. I was reading studies about this back in 2004/2005 and don't have any bookmarks to the scientific journals anymore. But if you dig really deep in the archives here you might find some threads with links.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:04 PM
 
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Anyhow, like I said, I fully respect other's choices to do right by their kids. But please don't spread the false idea that "if we just took more precautions" our kids would be safe...it's just not true..
I didn't actually say that. I think the argument that we must vaccinate to protect the compromised is fallacious, and as you stated, the common cold can present quite a challenge. People that are vaccinated need to get over the idea that being vaccinated prevents them from spreading disease, and somehow makes the immune compromised population safer. Obviously, precautions only go so far - and we all must choose whether or not we plan to engage society. In doing so, we run the risk of coming into contact with disease causing agents.

It probably behooves us all to simply treate everyone like they have the possiblity to transmit disease. Because they do.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:07 PM
 
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I've wondered about this line of reasoning. If this were true, the vaccine enthusiasts would be falling all over themselves to do the vaccinated versus unvaccinated study, wouldn't they?
The only reasoning I can come up with is that, from my experiences with the people that I know, people who choose to not vaccinate tend to be very aware of the symptoms of illness and keep their children home when they are ill. The people I know who do vaccinate, write off all the runny noses and coughs and what-have-you as normal things that children go through, and bring them everywhere when they are in this condition. My daughter has that runny nose far less frequently than other kids I know, yet she also misses more school and play dates than the other kids do. I think this creates the illusion that children who aren't vaccinated are sick more often, because we take our children out of school and playgroups when they have a runny nose. For my vaccinating friends, there has to be a fever and antibiotics involved for them to keep their children home.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:11 PM
 
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Children who aren't vaccinated are prone to being sicker and having stronger symptoms during illness.
That's partially true, though the first part of the sentence is a little misleading. Depending on the vax / disease, an unvaccinated person (depending on immune status) will likely show more symptoms. That's not a bad thing though, as many of us have been led to believe. The vaccinated person that has enough circulating antibody to destroy some, but not all, of the infectious organism is likely showing only mild symptoms, or may be asymptomatic altogether. THIS is the person that most threatens the susceptible population, as they quietly mingle throughout the herd with a "cold".
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:44 PM
 
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That's partially true, though the first part of the sentence is a little misleading. Depending on the vax / disease, an unvaccinated person (depending on immune status) will likely show more symptoms. That's not a bad thing though, as many of us have been led to believe. The vaccinated person that has enough circulating antibody to destroy some, but not all, of the infectious organism is likely showing only mild symptoms, or may be asymptomatic altogether. THIS is the person that most threatens the susceptible population, as they quietly mingle throughout the herd with a "cold".
I agree it's partially true. Pertussis for example, can be less severe with someone vaccinated. The way the imply it though is that it's like that with every illness and all. However, like you said, it doesn't prove anything.

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Old 05-05-2010, 10:51 PM
 
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:35 AM
 
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It's simply not true. Catching a disease does NOT guarantee you lifelong immunity. Some people who catch the measles will be immune for life after that. Most will not. Some people who are vaccinated against measles will be immune for life. Most will not. It worries me that this false belief seems to be so widespread.
With regards to measles, this is the first time I have read this. I am aware there are exeptions, however, prior to the measles vaccine, measles was considered a childhood illness, not a common disease in adulthood.

I am interested to read more about most children who had measles not having lifelong immunity.

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Old 05-06-2010, 03:25 AM
 
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One of my pet peeves, along the lines of "herd immuniy," is the apparent assumption by many that being vaccinated means you can't spread germs. And, conversely, that unvaccinated kids somehow spread more germs.

Vaccines were not designed to prevent transmission or exposure, they only affect (in theory anyway) how a person's body deals with a virus once exposed. If you have a classroom of kids, mix of vaxed and unvaxed, and measles germs get on community property glue stick/crayon/whatever, those germs are going to get transported wherever regardless of the vax status of the kid who touches them. Vaccines do not miraculously turn your child into a walking bar of antibacterial soap. They may not get sick from those germs (and a healthy unvaccinated child might not either) but being vaccinated won't kill the measles virus on their hands if they picked it up somewhere.

What it boils down to is that sick children spread more disease than well children (snot, sneezing etc.) regardless of vax status, and well unvaccinated children do not somehow spread more disease than well vaccinated children.

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Old 05-06-2010, 07:42 AM
 
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Your unvaxed kids are putting all other children at risk.
First of all all my DS is not a vessel of disease, and if you believe your precious vaccines are so effective, what are you worried about anyway??
This. Exactly.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:37 AM
 
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not a common disease in adulthood
always exceptions- in the mid 1960's there was an out break of German and I know several adults that had it- my grandfather, one grandmother a friend of my mom's was pregnant and her daughter was born deaf (attributed directly to the measles)- in PA and some parts of NY at that time, there were lots of adults effected- my grandmother said she knew several adults and some had complications as well

the girl who was deaf went to a special school with others that were also a result of the measles

These adults were in their 20's-50's during this time and this was not a rural area- they simply did not get it as children.
This was a large out break.
www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/rubella

 

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Old 05-06-2010, 12:54 PM
 
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always exceptions- in the mid 1960's there was an out break of German and I know several adults that had it- my grandfather, one grandmother a friend of my mom's was pregnant and her daughter was born deaf (attributed directly to the measles)- in PA and some parts of NY at that time, there were lots of adults effected- my grandmother said she knew several adults and some had complications as well

the girl who was deaf went to a special school with others that were also a result of the measles
I have a half-sister that my mother gave up for adoption in the 60s. She was also born deaf as a result of the german measles that my mother had a case of when she was pregnant.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:56 PM
 
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So this has been interesting so far. As for the op-the things I get the most are-
1-the diseases are deadly so protect your child
2-herd protection
3-the studies prove no Autism connection

I get irritated by the scare tactics from drs. I get irritated when I'm told that I am uneducated and because I'm not a doctor, have no idea what I'm talking about. I get irritated that everyone assumes it's because of Autism that I do not vaccinate.
For "herd protection", I have to agree with some of the pp. I know people who fully vax and when they have a sick kid-they take them to play dates, or story, or the park anyhow. If there is an "outbreak" of a vpd, they automatically assume they are protected and are not spreading the disease themselves. Those I know who do not vax, or selectively vax-when those kids are sick-they tend to keep them away from group settings. Maybe it's the mindset.
Also though, I those who believe everyone should vaccinate to protect their children, could maybe think about other families who do not vaccinate due to medical reactions, and for safety reasons should not vaccinate. We have taken the diseases out of circulation for the most part. More adults are getting the diseases they should have had as children and so there are more severe reactions or even deaths to them.

As far as the Measles goes-I'd like to see some of those studies. Are we talking about German Measles or all Measles?
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Old 05-06-2010, 06:34 PM
 
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always exceptions- in the mid 1960's there was an out break of German and I know several adults that had it- my grandfather, one grandmother a friend of my mom's was pregnant and her daughter was born deaf (attributed directly to the measles)- in PA and some parts of NY at that time, there were lots of adults effected- my grandmother said she knew several adults and some had complications as well

the girl who was deaf went to a special school with others that were also a result of the measles

These adults were in their 20's-50's during this time and this was not a rural area- they simply did not get it as children.
This was a large out break.
www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/rubella
one thing we all have to remember, is that even if we are anti-vax, selective vaxing etc., our children may grow up and decide to get vaccinated for various reasons. Especially in the case of measles for girls and mumps for boys. And that will be their choice, at that time their immune systems could handle it better than at 18 months. It is our job to do what is best for our children today , when they are adults they can make that personal decision when the time comes.

although my previously unvaxed dh from india got eczema shortly after getting immigration vaxes, just basic dtp vaxes, so there could be side effects even in adults.

as far as the op, i don't get much flack for not vaxing as i don't tell people really, just dh of course, my grandma and a couple of mine and dh's friends. I kind of hinted around the subject with my sister but decided its best not to tell her or any of my extended family. Ds was fully vaxed until 9 months, i can't even remember what all he got, but it was quite a bit. I know everyone talks about the reason why everyone doesn't vax/stops vaxing now is because of the autism scare, but for me the biggest turning point was the chicken pox vaccine, I am a child of the 80's and had chicken pox and it wasn't serious at all, so i started researching more about the actual diseases and the correlation between the decline in the diseases and the increase in sanitation and decided that there is more to this than just preventing diseases, the bottom line is money not health and that made me uneasy.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:05 PM
 
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So this has been interesting so far. As for the op-the things I get the most are-
1-the diseases are deadly so protect your child
2-herd protection
3-the studies prove no Autism connection

I get irritated by the scare tactics from drs. I get irritated when I'm told that I am uneducated and because I'm not a doctor, have no idea what I'm talking about. I get irritated that everyone assumes it's because of Autism that I do not vaccinate.
For "herd protection", I have to agree with some of the pp. I know people who fully vax and when they have a sick kid-they take them to play dates, or story, or the park anyhow. If there is an "outbreak" of a vpd, they automatically assume they are protected and are not spreading the disease themselves. Those I know who do not vax, or selectively vax-when those kids are sick-they tend to keep them away from group settings. Maybe it's the mindset.
Also though, I those who believe everyone should vaccinate to protect their children, could maybe think about other families who do not vaccinate due to medical reactions, and for safety reasons should not vaccinate. We have taken the diseases out of circulation for the most part. More adults are getting the diseases they should have had as children and so there are more severe reactions or even deaths to them.

As far as the Measles goes-I'd like to see some of those studies. Are we talking about German Measles or all Measles?
I love it when someone tries to bring up the Autism thing because my son is unvaccinated and on the Autism spectrum. Yes, I was talking about rubella.

Also, I will let my children know that they are not vaccinated and have their titers checked as they get older and they can decide if they want to get vaccinated when they are adults. I mostly do not vaccinate my babies/children because of the assault on their developing systems. I know there can be side effects and vaccine damage in adults, too, but that will be their personal choice.
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Old 05-06-2010, 11:41 PM
 
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The doctor told her that today's chicken pox is not the same as 20 years ago and much more dangerous.
I've never heard of this. Anecdotally, ds1 and my oldest nephew both had chickenpox about...10-11 years ago, I guess. My sister and I had it about 35 years ago. Two of my other nephews and my niece had it last summer (and we had a pox party, but my kids didn't get it). The severity has been pretty much the same in all those cases.

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Old 05-06-2010, 11:52 PM
 
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Some people who catch the measles will be immune for life after that. Most will not.
Most? Really? I'd be interested in seeing your source. I grew up before MMR. I can't think of anyone I know in my age group who didn't have the measles. I also can't think of any who had it twice. The same goes for my mom and her friends - she knew one person who got it twice. My grandmother and her friends said the same. This is definitely not due to a lack of measles circulating in society. I can remember two distinct major "waves" growing up, and several other people who caught it outside those waves. While my circle of friends, family and acquaintances isn't a large statistical sample, it does make me doubt that "most" people who get measles will not acquire lifelong immunity.

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Old 05-07-2010, 07:29 AM
 
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Here's mine ... my child care provider has a SN son, and they are very wary of germs and very socially compliant. She resisted being available to care for my child for a year due to her fears that DD would put her child at higher risk. She ended up asking her ped if Laurel posed a threat, and he told her, "No, she is probably already immune to all the diseases from everyone else's vaccinations." Um, no. She would only possibly have gotten contact immunity from the live attenuated virus vaccines. She would not have immunity for anything else. Kind of surprised me coming from a ped though.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:35 PM
 
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i just wanted to post that some place further up the thread someone posted that their child got roseola and wasn't vaxed for it... there is no vax for roseola. (also know as 6th disease.)

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:40 PM
 
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i just wanted to post that some place further up the thread someone posted that their child got roseola and wasn't vaxed for it... there is no vax for roseola. (also know as 6th disease.)

h
Isn't that fifth disease?

http://www.fifthdisease.org/
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:53 PM
 
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nope. lol here is a link http://www.skinsight.com/infant/roseolaSixthDisease.htm

both my older two had it. just as the fever is gone they get the rash.

sort of interesting that the diseases had numbers, i read someplace that it was because they were all things your kid would get... all 6 of them. lol

http://www.jsonline.com/features/29311919.html

my dd also had second disease. when i told my grandma she freaked out. that was a bad one, there is no vax for that either, just a trip to the doctor and antibiotics. (it is strep).

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Old 05-07-2010, 12:58 PM
 
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i just wanted to post that some place further up the thread someone posted that their child got roseola and wasn't vaxed for it... there is no vax for roseola. (also know as 6th disease.)

h
I wasn't saying that it's a vaccine preventable disease, just mentioning that he had it as well as rubeola (since they are in the same family).
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Old 05-07-2010, 01:15 PM
 
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Mmh everyone in my family who had measles never had it again. My parents still have titers for it and had it when they were like 4. I think most people will be immune following measles. I only had one measles shot as a kid and still had titers 24 years later. I'd like to see the study/ medical book that says that most people are not immune following measles.

As far as chickenpox goes... Is there any good source that shows that chickenpox is more dangerous now than 20 years ago? I just wonder if it has to do with medicating children more (Tylenol, antibiotics for no good reason) and then that leads to worse cases?
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:15 PM
 
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Er, I don't know about CP being worse for kids today than years ago. It's prob a scare tactic?
I remembered yesterday that I was given the MMR as an infant, not long after it became available. As of 5 yrs ago, I still had titers to M & M, but they talked me into getting a Ruebella (sp) vaccine. They had no information about it and breastfeeding either.
My sister had Measles as an infant (4months old) with no complications. I'd like to know if she still has titers or if our other sister does as well-she had them too, but was older.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post
Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment. This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.
I do understand your point of view and certainly respect your decision to try and protect others from harm by doing your part!!! I think a lack of compassion for others is one reason why our society is suffering so much today.

I do look at it a bit differently though. I don't want to compromise my child's health with vaccinations to protect everyone who is immune compromised. However, I do keep my child home during illness and myself to protect others. Also, it is the responsibility of the parents with immune compromised children to keep them as safe as possible. It always makes me mad when I go to a group and some kid comes in hacking and coughing and I don't even have an immune compromised child. I also want to protect my child from immune compromise by building his immune system through naturally occurring illnesses and not getting vaccinated, because that can cause long term immune issues in itself in my opinion. I personally feel I have been damaged from the vaccinations I received as an adult and working in health care.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:52 PM
 
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I can see how you read it that way, and I should have worded it better. But that's not at all what I was expressing.

When you hear vax proponents say "Young parents don't know what it was like before certain vaccines were available" well, I do know. It was pretty uneventful where HIB was concerned because I hadn't heard of it. Most of us hadn't. But when vax proponents throw this line at you, you'd think there was once some mass epidemic in the U.S. killing children by the millions.



What I hear are generalization, as if all of the diseases were one in the same.

The other thing that gets me is that if you talk to a lot of the "measles generation," (some of whom post here) they didn't think it was such a big deal, either.
I was watching a Brady Bunch show once and all the kids came down with measles. It was such a NON ordeal. All the kids got it and all went to bed and played games, generally took it easy. Then they all got better. That is how they use to view this disease in general or they wouldn't have portrayed it on television like that. It was funny because at the end of the show they pulled out a chart of all the "vaccine preventable" diseases the kids had previously had and were checking off measles. There were so many we vaccinate for now. It really is ridiculous that "they" now make out so many of the so called "vaccine preventable" diseases to be so horrific which use to be normal childhood experiences. There are only a few diseases that worry me, like tetanus. I worry a bit after seeing a show about polio and all the iron lungs, but since it has been pretty much eradicated in the US, I don't worry too much. Also, the show was geared toward the magical cure of the vaccine.
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