Wall of Shame for Pro-Vax Cliches - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-04-2010, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Please contribute! Remember, these are cliches, or overused statements that you've heard (first or second-hand) from pediatricians, public health officials, drug companies, etc.

I'll start with my Top 5:

1.“Young parents don’t realize what it was like….” (Um, actually we do. Those of us born in the 1970s and 80s even experienced chicken pox, and many of us hadn’t even heard of a lot of diseases until a vaccine came out for them. It’s not like there was a HIB quarantine on my block ).

2.“It’s just a little prick. It won’t last.” (Oh for the love of God’s green earth! Do they *really* think that’s why there is a growing movement of vaccine skeptics? Do they really think we’re that shallow? Do they really think we’re demanding safe vaccines and filing exemptions and fighting tirelessly to change public policy because we’re afraid of needles??? If they do, they have a long way to go in trying to convince us to get our kids "fully" vaccinated).

3.“There’s more mercury in a can of tuna.” (Of course, we aren’t injecting tuna into our blood streams. And speaking only for myself, that’s one of many reasons that I’m vegetarian).

4.“You know, They proved that whole autism thing wrong.” (I usually hear this before any doctor listens to the reasons for my skepticism. They just assume that autism is at the root of my apprehension because that’s what they heard on PBS and from their AAP colleagues. The autism argument is probably the most commonly cited because vax proponents see it as the easiest to beat down).

5.“The benefits far outweigh the risks."
(Thank you. In exercising my legal right to choose whether and how to vaccinate my children, I will be the judge of which risks and which benefits I am willing to accept).

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Old 05-04-2010, 12:12 PM
 
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yep to all those

here are a couple more:

1) Your unvaxed kids are putting all other children at risk.
First of all all my DS is not a vessel of disease, and if you believe your precious vaccines are so effective, what are you worried about anyway??

2) There is more aluminum in breastmilk this is kind of like the tuna/mercury thing

3) You need to vax to contribute to "herd immunity" after all these disease that have been eradicated like polio are only a plane ride away. I'm not willing to throw my kid under the bus to contribute to a concept I don't agree. Even if I did buy the whole herd immunity arguement, My first priority is protecting my child.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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Old 05-04-2010, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Please contribute! Remember, these are cliches, or overused statements that you've found cited in this forum, in media, or your own experience with health care providers.

I'll start with my Top 5:

1.“Young parents don’t realize what it was like….” (Um, actually we do. Those of us born in the 1970s and 80s even experienced chicken pox, and many of us hadn’t even heard of a lot of diseases until a vaccine came out for them. It’s not like there was a HIB quarantine on my block ).
You just contradicted yourself. How can you know what a disease was like if you had never heard of it?
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:34 PM
 
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I have seen this Paul Offit talking point taking hold:

"Vaccines are safer today because there are fewer antigens." As if that is all that is in vaccines - antigens and sugar water.

"Kids get exposed to more antigens on a daily basis than they do from vaccines." As if kids would normally be exposed to measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, polio, diptheria, tetanus and whopping cough all in one day.

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Old 05-04-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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You just contradicted yourself. How can you know what a disease was like if you had never heard of it?
And they're usually not talking about chicken pox. They're talking about polio, diptheria, menengitis, etc. The ones that we didn't see a lot of as kids because the vaccines for them had been out for a while before we were born.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:04 PM
 
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You just contradicted yourself. How can you know what a disease was like if you had never heard of it?
Because when people were tested for Hib, over 95% of people had active immunity without having been vaccinated. We know what it was like because we all had it, we just didn't know or care at the time.

The rotavirus vaccine isn't even a shot, so that one shouldn't bother you. Ummm... sure. I guess that would be true if my only concern about vaccines was the pain from the needle.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:07 PM
 
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Because when people were tested for Hib, over 95% of people had active immunity without having been vaccinated. We know what it was like because we all had it, we just didn't know or care at the time.

The rotavirus vaccine isn't even a shot, so that one shouldn't bother you. Ummm... sure. I guess that would be true if my only concern about vaccines was the pain from the needle.
I know this isn't the thread topic, but I did a presentation for my nutrition class last quarter and discovered that breastmilk has a specific ingredient to combat rotavirus! And I've been steeped in as much info on breastmilk as I could get my hands on for the past 10 yrs and that doesn't count my personal breastfeeding exposure and experience throughout my life.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:36 PM
 
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yep to all those

here are a couple more:

1) Your unvaxed kids are putting all other children at risk.
First of all all my DS is not a vessel of disease, and if you believe your precious vaccines are so effective, what are you worried about anyway??
Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment. This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.

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Old 05-04-2010, 03:41 PM
 
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I know this isn't the thread topic, but I did a presentation for my nutrition class last quarter and discovered that breastmilk has a specific ingredient to combat rotavirus! And I've been steeped in as much info on breastmilk as I could get my hands on for the past 10 yrs and that doesn't count my personal breastfeeding exposure and experience throughout my life.
That doesn't mean it prevents it though. A few years ago my daughter's play group passed the rotovirus around and every kid in that group was breastfed (and none were vaxed against the rotovirus) :.

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Old 05-04-2010, 03:42 PM
 
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That doesn't mean it prevents it though. A few years ago my daughter's play group passed the rotovirus around and every kid in that group was breastfed (and none were vaxed against the rotovirus) :.
I have a feeling it does a better job than the rotavirus vax.
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:46 PM
 
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I have a feeling it does a better job than the rotavirus vax.
Can you explain how? I'm interested in reading more about the paper you wrote. What sources did you use? It was uncanny how fast the virus spread in this little play circle. We were all nursing them at the time too. It was pretty gross.

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Old 05-04-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything.
Are you doing the same for yourself?

Since most of the adults in this country don't know if they still hold immunity (unless you pay-most insurances will not do a test) I feel it is wrong to say it's the children who hold the HEARD together. There are far more adults in this country than children, no one says a word about that- it's only the unvaxed children at fault. Why is that?

Most insurances won't pay for an adult to vax (again unless you test while preggers) you are own your own to pay up-so most don't do it.

 

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:02 PM
 
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One of DD's little friends is HIV+
Respectfully, if a person is HIV + or has demonstrable immune system issues, are they not required to take more precaution when interacting with society? If my child was compromised, it is not my neighbor's responsibility to ensure my child's safety.

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Are you under the impression that vaccinated people don't spread disease?
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:07 PM
 
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Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment. This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.
I am immunocompromised and peoples live vaccines put me at risk. They put the HIV+ and cancer patients at risk too.

I would rather people not because an unvaccinated person would be visibly sick and I could choose to stay away. Freshly vaccinated people dont have any visible signs of sickness and short of asking them, I have no idea who they are. So please dont do me any favors.

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:07 PM
 
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Can you explain how? I'm interested in reading more about the paper you wrote. What sources did you use? It was uncanny how fast the virus spread in this little play circle. We were all nursing them at the time too. It was pretty gross.
I found the information here: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10935&page=48 IT's a book about the ingredients in Infant Formula, believe it or not. There are about 30 ingredients (as of the publication of this book in 2004) that have been specifically isolated from breastmilk that are anti-infectives or have immunological properties. There are even T-cells in breastmilk. Recently cells have been discovered in breastmilk that were named HAMLET that actually kill cancerous cells.

If you look at the ingredients in the breastmilk on the left side, it then explains how each ingredient works in the function column.
So Lactadherin is a protein that prevents Rotavirus from binding to the digestive system and helps pass it out.
Were any of the nurslings in that play group hospitalized? I don't have first-hand experience with Rotavirus but I know that many babies who contract this illness and are not breastfed end up in the hospital for treatment.

Also, once a nursling starts eating solids, the gut permeability changes and the coating that breastmilk gives to the digestive tract isn't 100% protective. But that's ok because as babies get older they develop their own immune systems and aren't just relying on breastmilk for protection. Their blood/brain barrier is mostly finished developing and the myelin sheath on nerve endings has developed a lot tool. Breastmilk does have surges and boosts of immunities for the nursling at different developmental stages too - for as long as breastfeeding continues.

I didn't write a paper or I would share it. It was a group presentation so we had a powerpoint and each took on different sections of the presentation about infant feeding methods in the first year. I started and said that I wasn't going to talk about how breastfeeding lowers risks of contracting this or that disease because breastmilk is the standard and any other type of food just increases the risk of contracting the disease and increases the risk of having more serious effects and complications from the disease.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:11 PM
 
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I am immunocompromised and peoples live vaccines put me at risk. They put the HIV+ and cancer patients at risk too.
I'm well aware of that (and we choose dead vaccines) but that doesn't negate the fact that not vaccinating at all also puts them at risk.

I know that vaccines aren't 100%. My husband and I have gotten some shots as well to catch ourselves up (and our county does them for free) when we've traveled, etc.

I refuse to even engage in the point that it's not my responsibility to worry about the kiddo with HIV.

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:13 PM
 
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I'm well aware of that (and we choose dead vaccines) but that doesn't negate the fact that not vaccinating at all also puts them at risk.

I know that vaccines aren't 100%. My husband and I have gotten some shots as well to catch ourselves up (and our county does them for free).

I refuse to even engage in the point that it's not my responsibility to worry about the kiddo with HIV.
My responsibilty lies in the fact that when my kid is sick, I keep her home. Thats what people dont do enough of these days.

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:17 PM
 
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(and our county does them for free)
in the US you are talking in the $100.00's and lots of insurance companies won't pay for children at all (not all states, but in mine that are not required to pay and don't)-the cost is simply out of reach for most adults, even the cost of the flu shot is hard for some

the fact still remains more adults vs children, and nothing is said about that group

 

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Old 05-04-2010, 04:43 PM
 
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I found the information here: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10935&page=48 IT's a book about the ingredients in Infant Formula, believe it or not. There are about 30 ingredients (as of the publication of this book in 2004) that have been specifically isolated from breastmilk that are anti-infectives or have immunological properties. There are even T-cells in breastmilk. Recently cells have been discovered in breastmilk that were named HAMLET that actually kill cancerous cells.

If you look at the ingredients in the breastmilk on the left side, it then explains how each ingredient works in the function column.
So Lactadherin is a protein that prevents Rotavirus from binding to the digestive system and helps pass it out.
Were any of the nurslings in that play group hospitalized? I don't have first-hand experience with Rotavirus but I know that many babies who contract this illness and are not breastfed end up in the hospital for treatment.

Also, once a nursling starts eating solids, the gut permeability changes and the coating that breastmilk gives to the digestive tract isn't 100% protective. But that's ok because as babies get older they develop their own immune systems and aren't just relying on breastmilk for protection. Their blood/brain barrier is mostly finished developing and the myelin sheath on nerve endings has developed a lot tool. Breastmilk does have surges and boosts of immunities for the nursling at different developmental stages too - for as long as breastfeeding continues.

I didn't write a paper or I would share it. It was a group presentation so we had a powerpoint and each took on different sections of the presentation about infant feeding methods in the first year. I started and said that I wasn't going to talk about how breastfeeding lowers risks of contracting this or that disease because breastmilk is the standard and any other type of food just increases the risk of contracting the disease and increases the risk of having more serious effects and complications from the disease.
Thanks for sharing this. The kids were all toddlers when they got sick and none were hospitalized. I was so glad that I was able to nurse my LO through it all. Her doc was really glad she was nursing during it as well b/c he said that it really helped shorten the duration and severity.

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Old 05-04-2010, 05:29 PM
 
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My responsibilty lies in the fact that when my kid is sick, I keep her home. Thats what people dont do enough of these days.
Many illnesses are contagious before there are any outward symptoms. For example, measles is transmitted several days prior any clinical signs. That's one of the reasons outbreaks can be hard to contain.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:59 PM
 
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Many illnesses are contagious before there are any outward symptoms. For example, measles is transmitted several days prior any clinical signs. That's one of the reasons outbreaks can be hard to contain.
What about all of the illnesses that are not vaccine available? At preschool, the mall, library, stores, and everywhere else, I see kids with massive runny noses and coughs. No one seems to think twice about illnesses that aren't vaccine available. If the big push is really to save the immuno-compromised, those kids should be home too. But, they rarely are. And those illnesses are far more prevalent than the measles.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:10 PM
 
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What about all of the illnesses that are not vaccine available? At preschool, the mall, library, stores, and everywhere else, I see kids with massive runny noses and coughs. No one seems to think twice about illnesses that aren't vaccine available. If the big push is really to save the immuno-compromised, those kids should be home too. But, they rarely are. And those illnesses are far more prevalent than the measles.
I was just going to say that. Being autoimmune/immunocompromised I understand I cant always tell if people are carriers of anything really. I do avoid contact with visibly sick people and practice good hygeine like hand washing and not touching my face to protect myself from the people I cant. I still take my daughter to playgroup, I still go in public and I dont excpect anybody to put anything into their body for my sake.

That being said I caught a horrible stomach bug yesterday, but it looks like I will live through it just fine. Germs are everywhere, no matter how many vaccines they come up with, there will still be some kind of germ lurking out there. You cant fix that.

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Old 05-04-2010, 06:27 PM
 
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deleted. I really didn't answer Op's question. Thank you

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Old 05-04-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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My biggest peeve is hearing that vaccines have been "proven safe." My gut tells me something is not right about most vaccines and that's all the proof I need to know that they are not completely safe for my children.

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Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment. This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.
I am the mother of an immuno-compromised child and this is not the way I feel although I'm sure that there are some out there who do. I don't worry so much about vaccine preventable diseases as I do about people going out in public who know they are sick and still put everyone else at risk of exposure. I will say that I do worry about people who have recently been given live vaccines. Also, I don't depend on other people keeping themselves healthy to keep my kid healthy, though I would like people to exercise common sense and stay home when they are sick. I take responsibility for my child's health - we wash our hands after coming home from public places and before we eat. True, there are some things that are airborn but what can I do? Keep my kid isolated from the general population? What kind of a life is that for him?
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You just contradicted yourself. How can you know what a disease was like if you had never heard of it?
I can see how you read it that way, and I should have worded it better. But that's not at all what I was expressing.

When you hear vax proponents say "Young parents don't know what it was like before certain vaccines were available" well, I do know. It was pretty uneventful where HIB was concerned because I hadn't heard of it. Most of us hadn't. But when vax proponents throw this line at you, you'd think there was once some mass epidemic in the U.S. killing children by the millions.

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And they're usually not talking about chicken pox. They're talking about polio, diptheria, menengitis, etc. The ones that we didn't see a lot of as kids because the vaccines for them had been out for a while before we were born.
What I hear are generalization, as if all of the diseases were one in the same.

The other thing that gets me is that if you talk to a lot of the "measles generation," (some of whom post here) they didn't think it was such a big deal, either.

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Old 05-04-2010, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The rotavirus vaccine isn't even a shot, so that one shouldn't bother you. Ummm... sure. I guess that would be true if my only concern about vaccines was the pain from the needle.
Good one. This one drives me crazy.

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Old 05-04-2010, 09:10 PM
 
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The other thing that gets me is that if you talk to a lot of the "measles generation," (some of whom post here) they didn't think it was such a big deal, either.
I was in the MMR generation and still got mumps and measles (I test neg for rubella titers) and I had the chicken pox and pertussis...I remember them all - uncomfortable? yes...worth the vaccine? no!

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Old 05-04-2010, 10:01 PM
 
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What I find most irritating is the pretense that the vaccine promoting information is based on solid statistics.

For example, when did Hib become a reportable illness? When the vaccine became available. The pre-vaccine numbers are an estimate.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:10 PM
 
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Another bit that bugs me is the pretense that having vaccines around improves the quality of medical care. Here is a thread (worth reading all the way through if you missed it the first time around) which demonstrates just how bad care can get when the emphasis is on the vaccine available illness, rather than accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1200715
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:13 PM
 
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I hate how all vaccines and diseases get lumped in together.

"Numerous studies have shown vaccines do not cause autism."
But only one vaccine (MMR) and one vaccine igredient (thimerosol) have ever been studied in regard to autism. What about all the other vaccines on the schedule? What about all the other ingredients?

"If people stop vaccinating - then it will bring back horrible diseases like polio and smallpox."
If parents choose to avoid vaccines for chicken pox, Hep B, rotavirus and flu, how will that bring back polio and smallpox?

I also find it interesting that pro-vax people always use smallpox as an example. Are they not aware that we no longer vaccinate for smallpox? And we no longer vaccinate for smallpox because it was deemed more of a risk to have the vax than contract the disease? How come smallpox hasn't come back if they are so worried?

Here are some of my favorite pro-vax contradictions.

"More and more parents are refusing vaccines - diseases will come back."/
"But we can't do an vaccinated/unvaccinated study - there aren't enough people out there that don't vax to use as a control group!"

"There is no autism epidemic - it is just better diagnosed now."/ "Thimerasol has been removed from vaxes but autism rates keep going up!"*

*I love this one, because not only has thimerasol not been removed from all vaxes but the most recent autism figures are based on 8 year olds in 2006 who would have received the full dose of thimerasol anyway.

Mommy to DS Adrian 8/10/04 and DD Geneva 9/02/09
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