Overwhelmed by the vaccine stuff. - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 02:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
The two questions are approaching the problem from the point of view of the individual parent trying to decide what to do about their individual child, which is where this thread started.

True, if someone is trying to decide about vaccne policy on a national or international level, there is a lot more to consider. But this is a board for parents and none of us have that sort of authority or responsibility.

As far as trying to decide on the value of a particular study, I find that simply reading it through and looking at the overall argument is a good place to start. Conflicts of interest are way down on my list of things to consider.
But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.

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We aren't trying to do science here. We are trying to decipher it far enough to decide, moment by moment, whether it makes sense to get none, some or all vaccines. To get them on time, late or never. To get them in the recommended combinations, spread out or not at all.
But yes, we are doing science here. I'm sure that you've been researching this issue for long enough to know that you can read two individual's overview on the same study and get totally different stories. So the only way for one to know what's true is to look at the studies themselves, which are often not easy for laymen to understand. That's why it's called medical jargon, because sometimes it sounds like they're speaking a totally different language. Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.
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These are decisions which should be made by individual parents, ideally in consultation with an informed physician who will put the interest of the individual baby ahead of any national or international vaccine policies.

Just my opinions, of course.
Agreed.
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#32 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 02:48 AM
 
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These are not black and white issues. There is a tremendous amount of grey in what public health officials have to recommend when weighing risks and benefits, and two extremely intelligent people could conclude opposite results while viewing the same data when determining what is best for their families verses making public health policy.

I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.

If you want to simplify the argument, though, the question isn't who is or is not lying, the question is who has the most to lose if you don't agree with them. This works on both sides of the debate.

Forgive the soapbox but we are all just trying to do the best for our families here and we should attempt to grasp this and any other medical or wellness choice from a more rational stance. Fear-driven parenting choices make the kids and the parents suffer ultimately.
Well said.
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#33 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 04:23 AM
 
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You can see the CDC's pink book info for yourself here. Download the entire thing, I did. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...t.htm#download

Now contrast those with the VIS statements which are worded in such a way to lead one to ONE conclusion: "dangerous pathogen, must vaccinate against it."

And a must read is the PACKAGE INSERT for each and every vaccine proposed to you. If the doc wants to give a polio vaccine, ask which brand, and find the Package insert online. Then ask yourself if you want those ingredients and THAT set of risks versus the OTHER set of risks outlined in the CDC's pink book.

I've chosen the Pink book risks, not the package insert risks, for each and every disease out there for myself and my children.

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Liora. Best way to reach me is FACEBOOK, search for "LioraP2". Jewish and Frum In Beijing, Mom of Three (mother of 3: #1 was vaccine injured at age 2m later dx with PDD-NOS, healed in 3 years with biomed. #2 unvaxed and healthy boy. #3 unvaxed amazing girl with Down syndrome using Targeted Nutritional Intervention (TNI) since infancy)
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#34 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 09:23 AM
 
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But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.
But what the PP was saying (I think, correct me if I'm wrong!) is that many times it's not even necessary to look that far into it. I don't know of many vax studies that prove "product Y" is safe or effective. If someone came up with a study showing that, I would definitely look into the methodology, sponsorship, conflicts of interest, etc. but more often the study says "product Y does not prevent transmission" etc. so there is nothing to look further into. I guess what I'm saying is if the manufacturers and sponsors etc. WHO ARE TRYING TO PROMOTE THE VAX can't even come up with a badly-formed study 'proving' it's safety then there's no reason to look further into it. But then again, I guess that depends on your original point of view... If you start from the standpoint of "I'm not vaxing unless it's proven safe & effective" you're not going to find many studies convincing you to vax so there's less need to look deeply into the studies since the results wouldn't change your position. If you start of saying "I'm vaxing unless it's proven dangerous or ineffective" THEN you'd find some studies convincing you to not vax & therefore would then need to look further into those studies to see if there really is just cause to change your point of view.

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#35 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 09:56 AM
 
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quite often the question on this forum is whether it is a good idea to vaccinate a child with a particular health condition

the doctor is usually saying yes

but if the parent looks at the studies, there is a very good chance that no child with such a health condition was ever included in a study

so there is no safety data for a very large proportion of the population of babies and infants, other than VAERS

and people who support vaccination keep pointing out that VAERS isn't complete or accurate and cannot be used to determine the risks of a particular vaccine

all of which leaves a big group of parents with NO scientific data on the safety of vaccinating their babies.

This is a very large hole in the "vaccines are carefully tested for safety" argument.
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#36 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
But there are many other factors that are important in the decision-making of parents. Not just public health officials. For example, I read study X. The people who carried out study X give a summary of it, that it finds that product Y is safe and effective. I read the study. The results indicate that product Y is safe and effective. But someone tells me that further review showed huge errors in how the study was carried out. And no one can duplicate the results of study X. And the people behind study X were being paid by the manufacturers of product Y. Then, of course, that merits more research from the parent. Because it significantly impacts the safety of what they're giving their child.



But yes, we are doing science here. I'm sure that you've been researching this issue for long enough to know that you can read two individual's overview on the same study and get totally different stories. So the only way for one to know what's true is to look at the studies themselves, which are often not easy for laymen to understand. That's why it's called medical jargon, because sometimes it sounds like they're speaking a totally different language. Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.

Agreed.
I agree, they can be hard to understand. Get a medical dictionary and look up things you don't understand. I totally disagree with the PP who said, we should leave sorting out these complicated studies to the experts since unless one has training in statistical analysis, one cannot possible understand. If a person has a brain in their head, a desire to learn, a medical dictionary and a passion and love for their child that drives them to want to learn the facts so they can make educated, sound choices for them than it makes no difference if a person is a "layperson" or not. Is it more challenging, yes, but that's what makes it all the more rewarding when the lightbulb comes on and you can finally think for yourself and stop relying on "the experts" advice to vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate because it's safe safe safe!

As for your comment: Parents who are doing their very best to research the right decision to make for their children should not be looked down on for feeling overwhelmed about all this, IMO. It's a lot to take in and the stakes are (potentially) high.

I totally agree, but I don't thing that is what Deborah stated or even alluded to at all.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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