Overwhelmed by the vaccine stuff. - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
Beauchamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PDX
Posts: 1,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I read so many books on birth, sleep, BFing, AP, etc, but the one area I procrastinated on was vaccines. They seemed overwhelming to me. And so I found a ped who had her own slightly delayed schedule, and felt okay with that. But really, I'm not okay with it, because I'd rather know the facts myself versus simply going along with what one doctor says.

What's the first step to learning more? The Sears Vaccine book? I don't have a ton of time to Google and sort through a hundred websites because DDs naps are short. My DD just turned one, and I feel like maybe it's too late? Am I locked into the cycles of vaccines or is it not too late to form an opinion?

I feel bad I wasn't more informed before she was born.

Mama to Fenergy.gif(06/11/09) and baby boy C baby.gif (06/09/11) 

Beauchamp is offline  
#2 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 02:05 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
First. Relax. You have time. Tell your doctor that you want to delay everything by a few months and you'll let her know if/when you are ready to start again.

Then go to your local public library and see what they have on vaccines. If you want to just go through some info quickly a book is a good place to start. I'll let other people chime in with book suggestions: my library as the one by Aviva Jill Romm. I'd read/skim at least two books. Then if you have further questions you can start doing some online research on the particular illness and vaccines where you want more info.
Deborah is online now  
#3 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 04:47 PM
 
just_lily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Dr. Sears book is probably a good place to start. He does a good break down of each vaccine/disease pair. I don't agree with his conclusions (vax anyway), but his writing is very straightforward.

Wife to DH (06/10) and Mummy to DD (07/08).

just_lily is offline  
#4 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Cameron's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Highland NY
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i feel the same exact way! I completely procrastinated learning about vaccinations even though I was fully prepared to breastfeed, cosleep, cloth diaper etc.. but thinking about vaccinations are so overwhelming! when my son was born we still didn't form a concrete opinion, the hospital staff kept asking about the hep b vaccine and I kept stalling. when it was time to go I buckled in and let them give it to him, mostly because I didnt know anything about it!... then i went througha handfull of doctors who I hated.. i different one each month and I always caved in and let them give him the vaccines.. and it always felt wrong to me. at four months I finally said no, and sought out a doctor who i'm comfortable with and one who is confortable with my choice and I absolutley love her! DH is in nursing school so sometimes he'll come home and talk about how "maybe we should look into vaccinating DS because the text book says this and that..." and when we talk to our doctor about it she always tells us that relax... and just continue to nurse, and wash his hands, and we can always start them up again later if we want to.

Mama to Cameron 6/03/09
Cameron's Mommy is offline  
#5 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 06:56 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can always stop vaccinating.

We vaccinate and we are glad we do.

I think that ultimately, you can read and read but it comes down to this: do you think the CDC, AAP, World Health Organization, etc. etc. are lying, but that organizations that promote alternative health are telling the truth? Or perhaps vice-versa?

Because unless you subscribe to, and have the training to read, scientific journals, it will be hard to separate facts from lies and myths. There is a lot of contradictory information out there, so once you choose whom to believe, then you can go with it.

I don't think Sears' schedule makes sense. He has you giving infant vaccines to toddlers who are half past the danger. He seems to think that once a child is bigger, these absolutely microscopic amounts are going to be better integrated, even though most kids eat more lead on a piece of dirt at the park than can be found in a vaccine.

I think it makes sense to not vaccinate, if you think the CDC, the AAP, and the WHO are just totally lying and these are either not effective, or dangerous, or both.

It makes sense to vaccinate for all the main diseases if you think vaccines are generally safe and helpful. But then you'd have to explicitely NOT believe the anti-vaccine side.

So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#6 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 07:29 PM
 
heathergirl67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
You can always stop vaccinating.

We vaccinate and we are glad we do.

I think that ultimately, you can read and read but it comes down to this: do you think the CDC, AAP, World Health Organization, etc. etc. are lying, but that organizations that promote alternative health are telling the truth? Or perhaps vice-versa?

Because unless you subscribe to, and have the training to read, scientific journals, it will be hard to separate facts from lies and myths. There is a lot of contradictory information out there, so once you choose whom to believe, then you can go with it.

I don't think Sears' schedule makes sense. He has you giving infant vaccines to toddlers who are half past the danger. He seems to think that once a child is bigger, these absolutely microscopic amounts are going to be better integrated, even though most kids eat more lead on a piece of dirt at the park than can be found in a vaccine.

I think it makes sense to not vaccinate, if you think the CDC, the AAP, and the WHO are just totally lying and these are either not effective, or dangerous, or both.

It makes sense to vaccinate for all the main diseases if you think vaccines are generally safe and helpful. But then you'd have to explicitely NOT believe the anti-vaccine side.

So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.
I would have disagreed with this at one time. My plan was to avoid this problem by just reading all of the studies that each side used and judging for myself. But then you have to find out who funded the studies, who was involved, who they may have worked with/been associated with before, what incentives are there for the researchers or publishers, etc. It's enough to make a person crazy. Because the truth is, those issues apply equally to both sides. It can definitely make you want to bury your head in the sand. Maybe just take one bit of info at a time? Like start with ONE vaccine. Perhaps one of the ones your dr wants to give next. That way it's not more and more stuff piling on.
heathergirl67 is offline  
#7 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 07:46 PM
 
ammiga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sometimes I think the issue of taking on one disease at a time is a much easier place to start than tackling the entire issue of vaccinating in general. For instance, take one of the vaccines that your dc is supposed to receive next, and look into the disease itself. Scroll through this thread and you will find an excellent list of questions to start educating yourself on each disease. It's a bit of legwork, but worth it!

It is never too late to stop vaccinating. I stopped my tetanus boosters in my 20's, and most adults aren't UTD on their boosters. So, no, it is never too late to end that cycle.
ammiga is offline  
#8 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 07:56 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,069
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post

I think it makes sense to not vaccinate, if you think the CDC, the AAP, and the WHO are just totally lying and these are either not effective, or dangerous, or both.

It makes sense to vaccinate for all the main diseases if you think vaccines are generally safe and helpful. But then you'd have to explicitely NOT believe the anti-vaccine side.

So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.
Well, notwithstanding the more obvious flaw in that argument, the issue is a lot more complex than this either-or portrayal. For one thing, even the authorities you mentioned can give flawed, tainted, or otherwise questionable information. And second of all, healthy skepticism is not the same thing as calling somebody a liar. The issue is more nuanced than that.

To the OP: Just as you can always stop vaxing, you can also always start vaxing.

As a delayed, selective vaxer, I have found that the healthiest approach is to accept that all sources--from pro to anti to everything in between--on this issue are biased. Read, read, read with an ever-critical eye. I truly wish I had a simpler answer, but this is not a simple issue.

I'm hoping that Emmeline chimes in here soon with her comprehensive list of questions to ask about each vaccine....

Good luck with your decision!

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#9 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 08:47 PM
 
Annie Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post


So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.
This really makes sense to me, and it's where I'm at now. There's a LOT of info to sift through, and to be honest, a lot of shrillness, emotionality and finger-pointing on both sides that I find hard to deal with. I guess you could get a Pubmed subscription and sift through all the pertinent studies. They're not fun to read, but it's possible to do. But, as EdnaMarie points out, it really depends on who you trust.
Annie Mac is offline  
#10 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 10:30 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
One of the Ah Ha! moments for me was when I started comparing what the CDC tells parents with what the CDC tells medical professionals. To put it gently...they have two different sets of facts.

The CDC Pink Book is very pro-vaccine. But the information provided, if you take the time to compare it with the material offered to the general public, doesn't match up.

So, given that sort of sloppy inaccuracy, or planned inaccuracy, or outright deception (everyone who looks into it can come to their own conclusions), do you trust the CDC?

I've been studying vaccines for about 10 years now. I'll admit that I came to it with an anti-vaccine bias, but no particular certainty. The more I dig, the less I trust the "authorities."

Take, for example, the matter of the herd immunity argument. If we stop vaccinating, the diseases will come back. I read the actual studies the CDC put together to demonstrate this. There are two major studies (PM me if you want the references). They don't agree with each other. Many of the numbers don't match up between the two studies. One of the studies even has a strong statement of disagreement within the study by what was, apparently, a minority within the authors group.

How did I track down the studies? I started from the TV clip showing J. Gerberding saying that 33,000 children a year would die if we stopped vaccinating. I thought that the specificity of that number was sort of weird. So I looked around to see if I could find out where the number came from. I found a breakdown of the projected deaths from each disease on the Every Child by Two website. They didn't reference the actual sources either. (this has been another clue for me, the lack of scientific references on the CDC parents info, the lack of scientific references on many of the supposedly science based web-sites, why don't they show us the science?) Anyway, to make a long story short, I eventually found a news story about one of the studies, which also talked about the earlier study. The news story claimed that the two studies supported one another. So, do they? No, not particularly. They both indicate that vaccines save lives, so there is that much agreement. But the numbers are massively different on several of the diseases, so much so that any thoughtful reader would be left in doubt as to the honesty of the news story.

Where am I going with this? I doubt if the person who wrote the news story actually sat down with the two papers, compared the numbers, looked up the references, researched the diseases. Nope. They took the press release the CDC handed out, which was dishonest about the content of the papers, and they wrote what the CDC told them to write and there we are.

It isn't impossible to figure this stuff out. It takes time and effort. A moderate amount of brains.
Deborah is online now  
#11 of 36 Old 06-16-2010, 11:11 PM
 
CrazyCatLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I say just stop and wait for now. The more the years go by, and the more I see how happy and healthy my daughter is, the less I ever even think about vaccines anymore. About once every two years I contemplate the DTaP because well...pertussis sucks. But so does the vaccine so that leaves me a no-vax parent.

Though if you're a more nervous parent when it comes to illnesses and such, then my approach my not work for you.

I studied vaccines for about four years before stopping. At that point I felt I had studied enough to be more than confident with my anti-vax stance. I can't recommend just one book or author or website. I did most of my reading online (though I have the most commonly recommended books). Read the vaccine forum here from a few years back (it seemed to be more active then). Follow the links posted, read more into the debates. Get both sides of the story. If something is confusing, study it even more.

Take your time though or it will get overwhelming. Maybe you will find someone that you can trust and just go by their judgment. Personally vaccine research became a hobby of mine for a while, so I ended up learning a lot on my own. I do love Hilary Butler's (sp?) work. Not a fan of Dr. Sears...find him too wishy washy when it comes to vaccines.

Good luck and I hope you can reach a decision that you're comfy with.

Melaya (29) - Mom to Z (9) and soon to be I (due Nov 2013) stork-boy.gif

Birth mom to M (7), O (5), & C (2). winner.jpgnovaxnoIRC.giftriadadopt.jpg

CrazyCatLady is offline  
#12 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 12:28 AM
 
poppan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OP, I was slightly informed (I read two books when pregnant) but still allowed myself to be talked into the easiest shots to talk people out of (Hep B, a sexually and blood-transmitted disease). So I just want to say, don't feel bad for not being more informed prior to this point, and kudos to you for taking action now.

I think the very thorough approach outlined by some here is very very good, but I also want to acknowledge that that is what made it seem so overwhelming to me when I first got myself into this. It might feel more do-able if you check out a book or two from the library and look at it one shot/disease at a time, starting with the next shot(s) on the schedule as a PP said. You're not locked into vaxing just because you started vaxing. I stopped after my twins' 2 month shots, remained undecided until they were 2 y.o., finally had the time to do the reading, and ultimately decided not to vax.

Some things that surprised me when I finally looked into it:
- I found I didn't know what half the diseases really were. For example, I thought polio was deadly or paralytic to all who contracted it, when it's just like having the flu in 99% of cases. (Source: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pol...ction=symptoms)
- Other countries don't have the same aggressive schedule as the US. For example, Sweden has only 12 shots by 12 months old, compared to 19 shots on the CDC schedule by 12 months. (source: http://www.euvac.net/graphics/euvac/...on/sweden.html)
- Conflicts of interest in the way vaccines get on the CDC schedule. (Google Paul Offit, CDC and Rotateq)

P.S. It was helpful to me at one point to list out all the diseases/vaccines and start deciding yes, no or maybe based on what I had read so far. To my surprise I was able to eliminate many of them and it made my decision process much more do-able.

Poppan ~ twins born April 2007
poppan is offline  
#13 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 03:59 AM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post
I would have disagreed with this at one time. My plan was to avoid this problem by just reading all of the studies that each side used and judging for myself. But then you have to find out who funded the studies, who was involved, who they may have worked with/been associated with before, what incentives are there for the researchers or publishers, etc. It's enough to make a person crazy. Because the truth is, those issues apply equally to both sides. It can definitely make you want to bury your head in the sand. Maybe just take one bit of info at a time? Like start with ONE vaccine. Perhaps one of the ones your dr wants to give next. That way it's not more and more stuff piling on.
This is why I trust the scientists and doctors and nurses whom I personally know, whom I know are not getting rich personally, and who have the education to read the articles, who have training in statistics.

Overall, though, one thing I learned is that no matter what study comes out, on MDC, everyone will say it's funded by Big Pharma and biased and not valid.

And frankly, though I disagree with part of the overall argument, I can see that.

Having read many studies myself, but without training in statistics (and having read much of the anti-vaccine literature), and most of all, not trusting some of the bigger names in the anti-vaccine movement, I choose to vaccinate.

I don't think it's possible for a layperson to really aggregate all that information, though. At some point, you have to say, "I am going to trust this person or that person to help me interpret this."

And that choice is going to make all the difference.

Good luck, OP.

(Oh, and you can always start vaccinating but for many diseases that affect babies the worst, there's not much point later.)

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#14 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
I personally feel that it isn't healthy to feel helpless in front of information and settle on trust as a solution.

Would everyone here use that approach for childbirth? I mean the obstetricians have always said that having a baby outside of a hospital setting is very, very dangerous.

Or how about breastfeeding? Many pediatricians are extremely laid back on the subject and leave it up to the mother to choose, at best. The evidence that breastfeeding can have a decisive effect on the long-term health of children is out there (hint, it is stronger by far than the evidence that vaccines reduced infant mortality), and yet breastfeeding is a choice and vaccines are a must.

My daughter is an engineer and has a good background in science. She researched childbirth. She researched breastfeeding. She asked me to do the vaccine research, but she didn't consider any of these topics beyond the reach of normal intelligence.

See, you don't actually have to understand advance immunology or all sorts of obscure science stuff to make a decision about vaccines. The two main questions are:

1) Are vaccines safe for babies at the ages given, individually or in combination?

2) What are the dangers for my babies from the particular diseases in the time and place where I'm living?

The answer to question number one is that the research hasn't actually been done. True, there are clinical tests. But the vaccines are usually given to healthy children and generally compared not to a placebo but to another vaccine. And the entire schedule hasn't been tested or compared to placebo.

The answer to number two is that most of these illnesses are either rare in the U.S. or not that dangerous for children or can be prevented by stuff like breastfeeding--so a reasonable parent can take the time to do the research on the specifics of the vaccines and the detail of the diseases and then make a decision.

Throwing one's hands up and saying: "It is just too difficult and I'm too dense...how about on this one thing I stop thinking and follow orders!"

Is that really the best option that people can recommend?
Deborah is online now  
#15 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 10:34 AM
 
crunchy_mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,501
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's never too late!! And FWIW, I think many moms have regrets, things they wish they knew/understood/etc. before their kids were born. For me the biggest one is circ'ing, DS is circed, it's not that I didn't research but more that I read the WRONG research I guess, and I am mad at myself that I couldn't think it through properly. For him, it's too late, but when it comes to vaxes, you can start/stop any time (though yes, the vaxes could cause damage & it would be too late to fix it but fortunately that's not the case for you! )

My best advice is to take one vax at a time & research it. On the whole, I wasn't against vaxing, but when I went through the vaxes one by one, I found I just wasn't comfortable giving any of them to him, so for now we're not vaxing (but I am continuously researching and reserve the right to change my mind at any time!!) I don't have book suggestions, I am better with online research, I do spend a lot of time on the CDC website (and I find it ironic that my best evidence not to vax has been found on the site of the very organization that's making everyone vax...)

ETA (now that I've read the other responses): I do have training in statistics & research etc. so I'm sure that makes it easier but I don't believe you need to just roll over & listen to what the 'seasoned professionals' tell you (and they all seem to have different opinions anyway). I think vaxing is a much more personal choice & you need to decide what's right for your family. This is not about who's a liar etc. it's about numbers & safety etc. I don't read the CDC press releases, I read the actual studies, and also the prescribing information provided by the pharmaceutical companies which shows things like oh by the way the dtap has NOT been shown to prevent pertussis transmission... More & more lately I have been leaning toward completely anti-vax in general, but it started out as ruling out the MMR & chicken pox as morally unacceptable to me, and then from there I just ended up ruling out all of them for a combination of health/safety/moral reasons (there is one vax I'm still on the fence on though).

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
crunchy_mommy is offline  
#16 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 01:41 PM
 
MyBoysBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My approach was to ignore the vaccines all together and just research the diseases/illnesses that we vax for. What is the normal course of the illness, what is the likelihood of catching said illness, the likelihood of damage or death if they do get it. After researching the illness then look into the vaccine for it if your still worried.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
MyBoysBlue is offline  
#17 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 02:52 PM
 
poppan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just a quick comment on trusting the opinions of CDC, public health officials, doctors, nurses etc. I just want to point out that what is best from a public policy/public health standpoint does NOT necessarily coincide with what is best for an individual or more specifically, for your child/family.

Poppan ~ twins born April 2007
poppan is offline  
#18 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 04:25 PM
 
heathergirl67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
I personally feel that it isn't healthy to feel helpless in front of information and settle on trust as a solution.

Would everyone here use that approach for childbirth? I mean the obstetricians have always said that having a baby outside of a hospital setting is very, very dangerous.

Or how about breastfeeding? Many pediatricians are extremely laid back on the subject and leave it up to the mother to choose, at best. The evidence that breastfeeding can have a decisive effect on the long-term health of children is out there (hint, it is stronger by far than the evidence that vaccines reduced infant mortality), and yet breastfeeding is a choice and vaccines are a must.

My daughter is an engineer and has a good background in science. She researched childbirth. She researched breastfeeding. She asked me to do the vaccine research, but she didn't consider any of these topics beyond the reach of normal intelligence.

See, you don't actually have to understand advance immunology or all sorts of obscure science stuff to make a decision about vaccines. The two main questions are:

1) Are vaccines safe for babies at the ages given, individually or in combination?

2) What are the dangers for my babies from the particular diseases in the time and place where I'm living?

The answer to question number one is that the research hasn't actually been done. True, there are clinical tests. But the vaccines are usually given to healthy children and generally compared not to a placebo but to another vaccine. And the entire schedule hasn't been tested or compared to placebo.

The answer to number two is that most of these illnesses are either rare in the U.S. or not that dangerous for children or can be prevented by stuff like breastfeeding--so a reasonable parent can take the time to do the research on the specifics of the vaccines and the detail of the diseases and then make a decision.

Throwing one's hands up and saying: "It is just too difficult and I'm too dense...how about on this one thing I stop thinking and follow orders!"

Is that really the best option that people can recommend
?
NOBODY recommended that. I haven't seen where anyone said, "Stop thinking for yourself. Decide who you trust and give all decision-making power over to them." Frankly, the fact that you've taken one part of many nuanced replies and boiled them down to that is troublesome to me. It seems a little bit like tunnel vision or seeing what you want to see.

As for the two questions to answer about vaxes... I guess you just see it much more simplistically than I do. I can think of tons of other questions and issues that need to be taken into consideration. That's why most of us seem to agree that it is a complicated issue with a lot of information to go through.

It seems unrealistic, to me, to not acknowledge that believing a study, opinion, etc takes a certain amount of trust. Like I brought out in my last post, there is always someone who funds the study. There's always researchers who may have other interests worth mentioning. There's always someone who will stand to gain from the results of the research, whatever they are. So even if one can read the actual research itself, find no flaws with the scientific method, and confirm that the listed results are accurate, there are other things to consider. It's scary to realize that you have to put a certain amount of trust in people. But, IMO, it's even scarier if you're denying that fact.
heathergirl67 is offline  
#19 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 05:02 PM
 
CrazyCatLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
This is why I trust the scientists and doctors and nurses whom I personally know, whom I know are not getting rich personally, and who have the education to read the articles, who have training in statistics.
I finished nursing school and worked as a nurse for a very short time. I got little to no "education" in vaccines and definitely no hard core training in statistics. The most we were really taught was to be grateful for the invention of the polio vaccines because it saved all our lives.

I know that different nurses have different levels of education and experience. But I personally know many housewives who are way more educated than most doctors even when it comes to vaccine knowledge. Because the topic interested them so they spent a lot of time studying about it. Most of the doctors and nurses that I met knew next to nothing about vaccine specifics. The just believed in them because the cdc and their text books say to and that was good enough for them.

YMMV

Melaya (29) - Mom to Z (9) and soon to be I (due Nov 2013) stork-boy.gif

Birth mom to M (7), O (5), & C (2). winner.jpgnovaxnoIRC.giftriadadopt.jpg

CrazyCatLady is offline  
#20 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 05:09 PM
 
crunchy_mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,501
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady View Post
I finished nursing school and worked as a nurse for a very short time. I got little to no "education" in vaccines and definitely no hard core training in statistics. The most we were really taught was to be grateful for the invention of the polio vaccines because it saved all our lives.

I know that different nurses have different levels of education and experience. But I personally know many housewives who are way more educated than most doctors even when it comes to vaccine knowledge. Because the topic interested them so they spent a lot of time studying about it. Most of the doctors and nurses that I met knew next to nothing about vaccine specifics. The just believed in them because the cdc and their text books say to and that was good enough for them.

YMMV
Yes, this is what I was trying to allude to as well but couldn't put it into words... My DS's old pedi didn't even know the ingredients in any of the vaxes (and was shocked when I told him some of them)... he also was a few years behind on his vax studies & stats. As far as nurses, my MIL became a nurse not too long ago and no way does she know more about vaxes than I do (not that I consider myself an expert), I think they just discussed the CDC schedule and that's it, definitely nothing in depth with each vax like I've researched on my own. In fact, our current family doctor is the only medical professional I've ever met IRL (& I've met many!) that has any substantial knowledge about vaxes.

Co-sleeping is really wonderful when your child actually SLEEPS!! familybed1.gif
crunchy_mommy is offline  
#21 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 08:23 PM
 
xmasbaby7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 1,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
You can always stop vaccinating.

We vaccinate and we are glad we do.

I think that ultimately, you can read and read but it comes down to this: do you think the CDC, AAP, World Health Organization, etc. etc. are lying, but that organizations that promote alternative health are telling the truth? Or perhaps vice-versa?

Because unless you subscribe to, and have the training to read, scientific journals, it will be hard to separate facts from lies and myths. There is a lot of contradictory information out there, so once you choose whom to believe, then you can go with it.

I don't think Sears' schedule makes sense. He has you giving infant vaccines to toddlers who are half past the danger. He seems to think that once a child is bigger, these absolutely microscopic amounts are going to be better integrated, even though most kids eat more lead on a piece of dirt at the park than can be found in a vaccine.

I think it makes sense to not vaccinate, if you think the CDC, the AAP, and the WHO are just totally lying and these are either not effective, or dangerous, or both.

It makes sense to vaccinate for all the main diseases if you think vaccines are generally safe and helpful. But then you'd have to explicitely NOT believe the anti-vaccine side.

So, I'd start by deciding whom you trust for your information.
I know this will sound harsh, and I am sorry, but I consider this extremely unsophisticated thinking that can get a vaxer or a nonvaxer into trouble.

These are not black and white issues. There is a tremendous amount of grey in what public health officials have to recommend when weighing risks and benefits, and two extremely intelligent people could conclude opposite results while viewing the same data when determining what is best for their families verses making public health policy.

I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.

I am convinced that SOME vaccines are very effective and that some individuals seem unharmed by vaccination and that SOME vaccine preventable illnesses are really scary, yet I still choose not to vaccinate. I am not alone on this board with that view, and many others who share these views yet make decisions to vaccinate on a selective and delayed schedule.

If you want to simplify the argument, though, the question isn't who is or is not lying, the question is who has the most to lose if you don't agree with them. This works on both sides of the debate.

Forgive the soapbox but we are all just trying to do the best for our families here and we should attempt to grasp this and any other medical or wellness choice from a more rational stance. Fear-driven parenting choices make the kids and the parents suffer ultimately.

::: Just another WAHM using this forum to put off picking up toys and cleaning my house.
xmasbaby7 is offline  
#22 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Heather,
Thanks for your commentary.
Quote:
As for the two questions to answer about vaxes... I guess you just see it much more simplistically than I do. I can think of tons of other questions and issues that need to be taken into consideration. That's why most of us seem to agree that it is a complicated issue with a lot of information to go through.

It seems unrealistic, to me, to not acknowledge that believing a study, opinion, etc takes a certain amount of trust. Like I brought out in my last post, there is always someone who funds the study. There's always researchers who may have other interests worth mentioning. There's always someone who will stand to gain from the results of the research, whatever they are. So even if one can read the actual research itself, find no flaws with the scientific method, and confirm that the listed results are accurate, there are other things to consider. It's scary to realize that you have to put a certain amount of trust in people. But, IMO, it's even scarier if you're denying that fact.
The two questions are approaching the problem from the point of view of the individual parent trying to decide what to do about their individual child, which is where this thread started.

True, if someone is trying to decide about vaccne policy on a national or international level, there is a lot more to consider. But this is a board for parents and none of us have that sort of authority or responsibility.

As far as trying to decide on the value of a particular study, I find that simply reading it through and looking at the overall argument is a good place to start. Conflicts of interest are way down on my list of things to consider.

To give a simple example, which I already mentioned: It is pretty easy to find the clinical studies used to justify the approval of vaccines. They are cited and described on the package inserts. I looked at 40 in a row once, just to see what they looked like.

Healthy children, healthy babies, healthy infants were included in one clinical study after another.

Then I was at the doctor's office with my daughter. While we waited for the baby to be seen we read the poster on the door which was promoting vaccination. It said that a mild fever was no reason to skip a set of vaccines. But in a clinical study, no baby with a mild fever would be vaccinated. Excuse me?

We aren't trying to do science here. We are trying to decipher it far enough to decide, moment by moment, whether it makes sense to get none, some or all vaccines. To get them on time, late or never. To get them in the recommended combinations, spread out or not at all.

These are decisions which should be made by individual parents, ideally in consultation with an informed physician who will put the interest of the individual baby ahead of any national or international vaccine policies.

Just my opinions, of course.
Deborah is online now  
#23 of 36 Old 06-17-2010, 11:37 PM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I haven't seen anyone mention yet that vaccines are not compared against placebos in safety studies.

Just read the package inserts. The control groups receive either a thimerosal containing injection, or a shot of aluminum, or a different vaccine. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../ucm093833.htm How in the world is that considered science?
ma2two is offline  
#24 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 12:02 AM
 
Wildwomyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmasbaby7 View Post
I know there are some non-vaxers here who do subscribe to conspiracy theories and paint all physicians as evil, but most of us don't, and you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to understand the complexity of this topic a little more.
When I was pregnant I was reading these forums (among other things), trying to understand the topic and feeling pretty overwhelmed. One day someone made a thread about how her family ,or perhaps just her children, received some sort of public health care and she had gotten both a phone call and a flyer in the mail about how she could get her kids vaccinated at no charge.

She was panicked. She seemed to think that stormtroopers were going to be pounding down her door to vaccinate her children at gun point any minute. I wondered why it hadn't occurred to her that it was possible that they were just trying to let her know this service was available, given that so many do go without preventive health care they would like to have, because of prohibitive costs. But we all have bad days where we leap to panic, and the thread was already several pages long, so I assumed someone, probably numerous people, had brought this up at least as a possibility. Until I read the thread and it was several pages of cheering on her resistance in the face of this incredible abuse of power and clear threat to the very lives of her children.

I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.

bftoddler.gif

Wildwomyn is offline  
#25 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 12:06 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
wildwomyn, do you have a link to the thread in question? I'd like to read it.
Deborah is online now  
#26 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 12:15 AM
 
Wildwomyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No, I read it over a year ago when I was pregnant. And I'm fairly sure my linking would be against the rules in some way. It was not the only thread that helped me along in deciding to vaccinate after all.

I was more than open to the idea that vaccines do not live up to the life saving hype, that bad reactions are more common than is admitted, and I'm completely away that medicine has more than once said 'Gee, sorry, we were completely wrong, but we're SURE that we're not wrong this time!' But that just wasn't what it seemed to be about, any of it.

bftoddler.gif

Wildwomyn is offline  
#27 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 12:33 AM
 
Deborah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the Seacoast of Bohemia
Posts: 6,598
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
No, it is okay to link to prior threads to share information. But I understand the difficulty of tracking down a thread from a year ago.
Deborah is online now  
#28 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 12:45 AM
 
poppan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildwomyn View Post
I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.
I very much respect your decision. But I hope you made it based on the facts, and not on a perception that the anti-vax movement is hysterical and therefore not believable. I fully admit I had to stay away from this entire forum during the swine flu scare because of the amount of panicked posts about mandatory vaccination being just around the corner. But. I don't think the conspiracy theories of a few -- or even a lot -- should have any effect on the facts.

Poppan ~ twins born April 2007
poppan is offline  
#29 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 01:12 AM
 
treeoflife3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: tennessee/kentucky
Posts: 1,513
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My daughter is 15 months old now and I'm still thoroughly confused. I regret not trying harder to make sense of all the jumbles of information and misinformation out there on vaccinations because although my instincts tell me NOT to vaccinate (and they did before I even knew there was a huge controversy... I couldn't tell you why I felt unease on the matter at such a young age) My husband was ADAMANT about DD getting vaccinations because of his being in the military and there being issues with being sent overseas or using the military daycares or what have you. I felt too confused to do more than just insist we do a delayed schedule instead and leave out flu and chicken pox.

I chose to read the dr sears book after trying a ton of other things. It was the simplest for me to read and understand. It didn't make that nagging instinct go away but I felt a bit more peace over doing a delay schedule as a compromise with my husband. He read the Dr Sears book as well (His ONLY research) and agreed to the delay schedule + flu/cp exclusion but I wish I knew more at the time about waivers and laws as well as what I know now about vaccines.

I still feel like I don't know enough and I still have a hell of a time wading through information. I can't focus on anything too heavy. I need the super dumbed down version or I get confused (I was also just diagnosed with ADD last week so now I understand why... ) but I have guilt for not trying harder then to see how accurate my instinct was because it just gets stronger now. My husband isn't willing to stop vaccination at this time but I hope by the time we have another, I'll have more on my side to at least get him to agree to exclude a few more vaccines. I'd like to just not vax, but even cutting out a few more would make me feel a tad better.

I recommend you just go one piece of information at a time. Whether that is one book/website or one illness or one vaccine (don't forget to research the multiple types as there are different companies) or whatever method you choose to research. I also recommend you pull information from multiple sources. I think everything has something valid to say even if you don't ultimately agree with it... or even if you get from it is the opposite of what they intended (such as a PP and the CDC)

Like others have said, its okay to just NOT vax right now. It is also okay to stop later. You might have some guilt the way I do, but ultimately, I think you'll find a balance you can live with even if you aren't completely happy with it. I can live with my first child getting vaccines on a delay with two exclusions... I'm not thrilled about it and I wish things had gone differently from jump, but I'm confident that it isn't the worst thing to feel guilt over.
treeoflife3 is offline  
#30 of 36 Old 06-18-2010, 02:33 AM
 
ma2two's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildwomyn View Post
When I was pregnant I was reading these forums (among other things), trying to understand the topic and feeling pretty overwhelmed. One day someone made a thread about how her family ,or perhaps just her children, received some sort of public health care and she had gotten both a phone call and a flyer in the mail about how she could get her kids vaccinated at no charge.

She was panicked. She seemed to think that stormtroopers were going to be pounding down her door to vaccinate her children at gun point any minute. I wondered why it hadn't occurred to her that it was possible that they were just trying to let her know this service was available, given that so many do go without preventive health care they would like to have, because of prohibitive costs. But we all have bad days where we leap to panic, and the thread was already several pages long, so I assumed someone, probably numerous people, had brought this up at least as a possibility. Until I read the thread and it was several pages of cheering on her resistance in the face of this incredible abuse of power and clear threat to the very lives of her children.

I ultimately decided to vaccinate my child. And I'm happy with that decision.
That's your choice to make, of course, but if that thread had anything to do with your decision to vaccinate, I'd have a difficult time respecting that.
ma2two is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off