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#61 of 129 Old 07-09-2010, 09:32 PM
 
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I believe that is what Ard meant by "straw man"
hey, that wasn't me it was A&A LOL
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#62 of 129 Old 07-09-2010, 09:38 PM
 
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I don't think the MIL should be assumed to be in on dh doing this behind your back. Otherwise she probably wouldn't have busted him to you, or maybe she knew but didn't support the lying part of it and that is why she did bust him LOL. Regardless, she is the one that told you, and did it in a way that seems like she didn't know that you didn't know.
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#63 of 129 Old 07-09-2010, 10:33 PM
 
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Which vaccines did he get?

I would do more than liquid vitamin C and vitamins.

I would get sodium ascorbate, mix with water, and give it to bowel tolerance throughout the day for at least a week. Use a syringe if he won't drink it on his own.

I would load him up on probiotics. The serious kind, like 50 billion CFU. Bio-K Plus is one brand, and they come in liquid versions with yummy flavors like strawberry. They sell them at Whole Foods Market and probably other health food stores.

I like the vitamin A suggestion someone gave. His body will be using up a lot of vitamin A while he fights the diseases. Cod liver oil is a natural source, but it might be easier to get high doses in him with pills.
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#64 of 129 Old 07-09-2010, 10:57 PM
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It reminds me of the time my MIL came over to babysit my dd (when she was a baby) and she said to dh in front of me, "So I warm up the breast milk in the microwave like you do, right?" to which I was because I had told my dh to warm up the milk on the stove and he told me that's what he had done all along. He lied about a little thing regarding her care, and I was so livid. I can't imagine how angry I'd be in your shoes. I'm so sorry, mama.

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#65 of 129 Old 07-10-2010, 01:55 AM
 
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hey, that wasn't me it was A&A LOL
Oh sorry

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#66 of 129 Old 07-10-2010, 10:38 AM
 
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The biggest problem I would have had was the lying and the cover up. Maybe it's just me, but it would make me wonder what else he was lying to me about. I could never be with someone I did not trust.

I would not want to teach my children that you stay with someone who so blantantly disrespects you, lies to you, and then covers all of the up just because you have kids.

I mean, he just completely disregarded the mom's objections to vaccinations. Instead of reading up on what he was handed and giving his own opinion (where maybe the mom would have said, "I understand what you are saying and I will agree to this shot and this shot, but not these...") he completely ignored all of that and took the child on a day that he knew she would be gone the whole day...got him fully vaxed...brought him home...removed all evidence of the vaxes...and proceeded to act like nothing was wrong.

That, for me, would be a total deal-breaker and it would put my in the position of questioning every single thing. It would not be fair for me to live like that...it would not be fair for my kids. I may not be able to stop him from taking the kids, post divorce, for vaxes, but I would be out of a relationship with someone who put so little value and respect on my views and wants for my child(ren) that it would be better in the long run.

OP, so sorry you went through that. I hope that your husband goes through the counseling with you and that you two learn the art of true communication (where he is an active participant) and can come to an agreement about your child.
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#67 of 129 Old 07-10-2010, 10:50 AM
 
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To all the people suggesting divorce, how is the OP supposed to protect her children when divorced and he gets time with the kids? I understand the motivation and outrage, really I do. But the OP will have even less control of what happens to her kids if they spend 1/2 time with dad. Only real choice to completely remove him from their lives is to go underground, and I tend to doubt that is going to happen.

If he is that untrustworthy, the last thing I'd want is him alone with the kids for days on end. I'd rather pretend I had a change of heart on vaxing and tell him I'm doing it and fake shot records if he asks than give him the kids part time alone.
Being married to him left the OP unable to protect her kids. If the man is willing to totally disregard her opinions, go behind her back and lie to her, being married to him affords no protection. It just affords unlimited access for him to do whatever he wants.

I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't divorce, but clearly being married to someone who acts in this manner isn't protecting the children from anything. And, in the spirit of disclosure, I do vax my kids. But personally I cannot imagine being married to someone who would behave in this mannner.
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#68 of 129 Old 07-11-2010, 07:27 PM
 
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I'm late to this thread, but I think that you need to bring up this issue that may get through to your husband. He allowed your baby to have a medical procedure that has known risks, some minor and some severe. Had your baby had a severe reaction and needed medical attention, you would not have been able to give a hospital the complete picture. Furthermore, how far would he have let it go? Would he have told you if your child had an allergic reaction or would he sneak him for the next round and put him at risk again? These may be hypothetical situations, but there was a danger present that he did not responsibly account for. He could actively put your child at risk and he needs to understand this. Additionally he put his own interests above your baby's comfort. He deprived him of being able to nurse during and after the injections which is proven to lower pain. He deprived him of being comforted accordingly at home by using cool cloths on the injection site, monitoring for localized pain, watching for fever and administering supplements to help his body with the toxins that are present.. This isn't just about betraying his wife, this is also him betraying his baby by not giving him the optimal care on the vaccination path.

Furthermore, I would not leave your child alone with him or MIL. If she had your child's best interests at heart she would have informed you immediately.
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#69 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you, Itzj. These are all scenarios I have thought through and did pose to my husband. I also had him read through the thread to see the responses.
I agree with what you said about being able to nurse through the shots and proper preperation, my heart breaks b/c this was not an option. Honestly, had H read any data and discussed with me, I would have compromised and I would never have let any nurse bully me into doing more shots. It is all so sad.

As I see it there are 3 huge issues here. First, in marriage you do not make huge choices about the kids alone, second you never sneak or lie and third no one hurts my kids. My h made the choice to do all of these things.

Thanks to those who posted about supplements. I've got him on probiotics, colitial silver, vit's C & A. We're vegetarian so, no cod liver. He is still running a low grade fever and clingy. It could very well be teething but I worry there is a link to the shots.

I'm just tired and sad. Tomorrow starts the work week and I have to go to work. I don't even feel like getting out of bed.
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#70 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't think the MIL should be assumed to be in on dh doing this behind your back. Otherwise she probably wouldn't have busted him to you, or maybe she knew but didn't support the lying part of it and that is why she did bust him LOL. Regardless, she is the one that told you, and did it in a way that seems like she didn't know that you didn't know.
He learns this kind of stuff from her although, I think you are correct that in this case she did not know that he did not tell me. Even though I know this, I can't help but be mad at her for knowing.
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#71 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 12:35 AM
 
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Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice myself to protect my child, and if divorcing means that I lose even more ability to protect my kids, you can bet I'd choose to live a life of duplicity. It wouldn't be forever, just till they are old enough to protect themselves. But I'm not sacrificing my kids to save myself.
yeah but the husband will do whatever he wants regardless of being married or divorced.
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#72 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 03:57 AM
 
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He mentioned to me in April that he wanted ds to get vaccinated for polio I said we would have to compromise and did a ton of research, handed it to him and asked him to read and then we could discuss. He never did.

I am livid and I totally agree with much of your posts. I feel like divorcing him. I mean clearly there are other issues here. He constantly makes decisions without discussing with me but never to this severity. I did tell him last night this was a "deal breaker" but he has me in check mate. He is a loving dad. My sons adore him, I hate divorce. My kids will suffer if we are not together. If we did not have kids I would NOT be with him but we have kids and like someone mentioned in the post he could still do things w/o my ok.

Honestly, it felt good to get this out and not be judged and to bawl my eyes out! I'm calling a counselor and if he'll come, great. If he won't, I'm still going.



My thoughts are with you and your bub. Good luck with your detox. I hope that you find people and resources to assist you in bring his little body back in to balance. Have you ever visited Dr Mercola's site? There may be links on that.
As for your husband it is obviously a really difficult situation for you - to spend so many hours researching and then be deceived and overruled without consultation must be devastating. It really is a deal breaker situation. It is a big concern that he thinks it is ok to risk your child's life, future and health without first educating himself. His motivation seems strange. Why polio? Why now? And 8 shots at once! Shame. If he wont read the scary vax info maybe you have to tell him. like every time he tries to talk to you reply with a scary statistic or anti vax titbit. even if it doesn't sink in at least it'll piss him off as much as he pissed you off. Not that that make it better but he so needs to realise what a stupid and dangerous thing he did!!
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#73 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 11:17 AM
 
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Perhaps you should put this on and block the exits Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices 1/18DVD, By Sherri J. TENPENNY .

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#74 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 11:23 AM
 
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I would not do anything to get "back" at the clinic. I would take this up directly and only with your husband. There are clearly deeper issues here than vaccine disagreement.
He deliberately betrayed your trust. Be as loving and respect as you can be while holding him accountable. There's no need to be spouting out "divorce". You need to work through this!

Your baby will be okay! The fever is a good sign his body is creating antibodies to the foreign viruses. Have no fear! Homeopathic Thuja 30C can help---two doses 12 hours apart (no food or drink 15 minutes before and after each dose).

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#75 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 04:24 PM
 
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Just wanted to offer the OP support.

It this totally messed up, yes! Is it possible her h is just an idiot...yes.
I could totally see this playing out in our marriage this way

Dh said I have an appointment for this shot. I say no and don't bring it up again. Dh thinks well she didn't bring it up again its no big deal I don't feel like canceling and goes, thinking the best for the child. While there gets pressured and caves. Then an OS moment fearful of my reaction makes thing worse by not telling me, but needs to tell someone hence MIL.

So through all that Dh is trying to do whats best out of unknowledgeable fear, but love. Then tries to avoid the problem/ guilt argument whatever by pretending/hoping I won't find out. It is entirely possible this was not malicious sneaking, rather idiotic avoidance. Which for me at least is a dealable issue, while the other not so much.

Now granted in our marriage we have very good communication because I force it. I make sure we discuss anything I feel strongly on whether Dh thinks its a big deal or not and MIL is not really in picture. We have not had anything like this happen, but I still do occasionally find coupons hidden places in hopes I won't notice he didn't use the save a dollar now.

I know it seems so horrible, but I'd want to know his side of things. Marriage can't be thrown away because on person is ignorant of danger (especially one that EVERYONE else says isn't real)

I really hope you can work through this and both come out better in the end.

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#76 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 04:42 PM
 
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Thank you all for your support. I don't want to talk to my friends or family b/c I don't want to alienate him further. Not that he does not deserve it but he is my kid's dad and my husband. I appreciate I have trusted women here. I'll try to answer your questions. I may be long winded but maybe writing will help me to process.
He mentioned to me in April that he wanted ds to get vaccinated for polio I said we would have to compromise and did a ton of research, handed it to him and asked him to read and then we could discuss. He never did.
On Monday he mentioned he made an appointment for a polio vaccination. I said NO, we had not discussed it and I had a conference all day that I'd be attending. I told him we needed to talk more. Then on Thursday my MIL was here and I mentioned ds had a slight fever, I believe related to teething and she said, "could it have been the shots?" I said, "what shots?" and all this came out. Total betrayal, behind my back, removed bandaids, etc. and let them shoot him full of every vax available.
I am livid and I totally agree with much of your posts. I feel like divorcing him. I mean clearly there are other issues here. He constantly makes decisions without discussing with me but never to this severity. I did tell him last night this was a "deal breaker" but he has me in check mate. He is a loving dad. My sons adore him, I hate divorce. My kids will suffer if we are not together. If we did not have kids I would NOT be with him but we have kids and like someone mentioned in the post he could still do things w/o my ok.
Honestly, it felt good to get this out and not be judged and to bawl my eyes out! I'm calling a counselor and if he'll come, great. If he won't, I'm still going.
Sending light to each of you. I appreciate the support

I think you should consider the effects of divorce on the children vs. the effects of having them know that you stayed with a person who would treat you this way. Such disrespect...such deceit...oh my goodness, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

If you would divorce him otherwise, then really, should you let your kids witness a relationship like that? Even if he's great with the kids...he has proved to be someone who cannot be trusted.

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#77 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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Thank you, Itzj. These are all scenarios I have thought through and did pose to my husband. I also had him read through the thread to see the responses. I agree with what you said about being able to nurse through the shots and proper preperation, my heart breaks b/c this was not an option. Honestly, had H read any data and discussed with me, I would have compromised and I would never have let any nurse bully me into doing more shots. It is all so sad.

As I see it there are 3 huge issues here. First, in marriage you do not make huge choices about the kids alone, second you never sneak or lie and third no one hurts my kids. My h made the choice to do all of these things.

Thanks to those who posted about supplements. I've got him on probiotics, colitial silver, vit's C & A. We're vegetarian so, no cod liver. He is still running a low grade fever and clingy. It could very well be teething but I worry there is a link to the shots.

I'm just tired and sad. Tomorrow starts the work week and I have to go to work. I don't even feel like getting out of bed.

Just curious what his response was to all that he read here??

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#78 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 05:15 PM
 
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This isn't just about betraying his wife, this is also him betraying his baby by not giving him the optimal care on the vaccination path.
.
I don't think it is fair to say he's betraying his baby. Again, we don't vaccinate, but I am certain he had his baby's best interest in mind. I don't know why else someone would take the time to pack up a kid, take them to the doctor's office, wait for the appointment, and then watch a child sob their little eyes out, and THEN get in "trouble" by their wife for doing so. It sounds to me like he was trying very hard to do the right thing for his child. He may be misguided, but when 99% of medical professionals and the rest of the community are telling you something is the "right" thing for your child, it is hard to know what to do.
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#79 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 05:17 PM
 
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I think you should consider the effects of divorce on the children vs. the effects of having them know that you stayed with a person who would treat you this way. Such disrespect...such deceit...oh my goodness, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

If you would divorce him otherwise, then really, should you let your kids witness a relationship like that? Even if he's great with the kids...he has proved to be someone who cannot be trusted.
I would most definitely go behind my husband's back if it meant doing what I thought was right medically for my child. I hope he wouldn't divorce me for that. (And no, we don't vaccinate either.) Everyone is assuming he had some sort of motive other than doing the best thing for his child...this is not like he took the kid to a bar to get drunk and lied to his wife about it... He did what he thought he had to for his child.
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#80 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 05:26 PM
 
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If you are supposedly trying to do what is best for your child, you at least educate yourself. Which the OP H did not do, he never read the info on vaxing she gave him nor did he continue to discuss the issue with her and instead went before her back and lied to her.

No that is not acting from a place of trying to do what's best for my child. This was not an emergency situation where a life was in danger. He calculatingly and deliberately did this behind her back.
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#81 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 05:59 PM
 
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If you are supposedly trying to do what is best for your child, you at least educate yourself.
Is this really true, though? Or at least, does educating one's self look the same for everyone?

When I was expecting my first child (lo, these 16 years ago), I thought I was educating myself. I read Parents, Parenting and Child magazines. I even read Mothering magazine!

I talked with my chosen pediatrician and other mothers I respected... and I fully immunized my firstborn.

It's possible to read the anti-vaccine information and either reject it as paranoid hysteria or at best, decide that the pro-vaccine information is more compelling.

I believe that the compliance rate in my state is upwards of 85%. Some of the non-vaccinators just haven't gotten around to it, can't afford it, don't have transportation, etc...

There is a small percentage of us who actively choose not to vaccinate because of our concerns with the long term implications of altering one's immune system, especially with suspect ingredients.

But I wouldn't go so far as to call those 85% uneducated or not trying to do their best by their children. This issue is so complex. Neither side can prove that they are absolutely, 100% "right". I've been studying, discussing, praying about this for almost 20 years and I still wonder if I'm making the best decision. My firstborn is fully immunized (by 1994 standards) and each subsequent child has gotten fewer and fewer vaccines until we reach my toddler, who has not had any.

Again, I think that this husband took a very wrong approach. I doubt that anyone here thinks it was appropriate for him to do this behind his wife's back. I truly hope that they can work on healing from this and in the future, how to make decisions when they disagree.

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If you would divorce him otherwise, then really, should you let your kids witness a relationship like that?
I would want my children to witness that a marriage can hit really hard times and the couple can work through them with success. Love, commitment, sorrow/forgiveness, growth in respect and improvement in communication... these are all qualities that I want my children to see in action.

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#82 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 06:11 PM
 
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EIGHT SEPERATE NEEDLES! and all the toxins, animals products and filth.
I'd be running out of there as fast as possible. He not only did it behind your back, he then didn't tell you?!

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The way he went about it is what would be the deal breaker to me. If I couldn't protect my child while married, I don't see much point in staying married to someone who felt it was appropriate to treat myself and my child that way.
Exactly this. It obviously doesn't make a difference whether she's around or not, because he went behind her back. I could never, ever stay with a man who respected and cared about me so little as to do something like that. *gag*

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#83 of 129 Old 07-12-2010, 11:15 PM
 
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Is this really true, though? Or at least, does educating one's self look the same for everyone?

When I was expecting my first child (lo, these 16 years ago), I thought I was educating myself. I read Parents, Parenting and Child magazines. I even read Mothering magazine!

I talked with my chosen pediatrician and other mothers I respected... and I fully immunized my firstborn.

It's possible to read the anti-vaccine information and either reject it as paranoid hysteria or at best, decide that the pro-vaccine information is more compelling.

I believe that the compliance rate in my state is upwards of 85%. Some of the non-vaccinators just haven't gotten around to it, can't afford it, don't have transportation, etc...

There is a small percentage of us who actively choose not to vaccinate because of our concerns with the long term implications of altering one's immune system, especially with suspect ingredients.

But I wouldn't go so far as to call those 85% uneducated or not trying to do their best by their children. This issue is so complex. Neither side can prove that they are absolutely, 100% "right". I've been studying, discussing, praying about this for almost 20 years and I still wonder if I'm making the best decision. My firstborn is fully immunized (by 1994 standards) and each subsequent child has gotten fewer and fewer vaccines until we reach my toddler, who has not had any.

Again, I think that this husband took a very wrong approach. I doubt that anyone here thinks it was appropriate for him to do this behind his wife's back. I truly hope that they can work on healing from this and in the future, how to make decisions when they disagree.


I would want my children to witness that a marriage can hit really hard times and the couple can work through them with success. Love, commitment, sorrow/forgiveness, growth in respect and improvement in communication... these are all qualities that I want my children to see in action.
I really liked your post especially the bolded part. So true. If this couple can resolve this issue and come out the better for it, they probably have a stronger marriage than most of us, as is obvious by the number of people who would have already been gone. I would not consider divorce over this (unless he plans to do this again) because I don't think he did it with malicious intent (to make you upset by going against your wishes for example). That would have been totally different. I also feel he caved to pressure, didn't know his options, that he could say no, I only want the polio one, etc.

I would try to help him understand why this could have been dangerous for your son, and what could have been done to decrease the chance for any reactions if you only would have known in advance. I think you can work this out.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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#84 of 129 Old 07-13-2010, 12:42 AM
 
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IsThis issue is so complex. Neither side can prove that they are absolutely, 100% "right". I've been studying, discussing, praying about this for almost 20 years and I still wonder if I'm making the best decision. My firstborn is fully immunized (by 1994 standards) and each subsequent child has gotten fewer and fewer vaccines until we reach my toddler, who has not had any.

Again, I think that this husband took a very wrong approach. I doubt that anyone here thinks it was appropriate for him to do this behind his wife's back. I truly hope that they can work on healing from this and in the future, how to make decisions when they disagree.


I would want my children to witness that a marriage can hit really hard times and the couple can work through them with success. Love, commitment, sorrow/forgiveness, growth in respect and improvement in communication... these are all qualities that I want my children to see in action.
Totally agree with this. Very thoughtful.
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#85 of 129 Old 07-13-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Wow, very shocking. Maybe your MIL had some influence to his decision? Maybe he felt pressured my everyone around him telling him that all children should get vaxed? I think that you and your husband really need to go to counseling. It's not okay to make major decisions about your child without the consent of the other parent, especially about your child's health and well being! Your husband should be ashamed about going behind your back and putting your son's health into his hands without even caring about your strong personal belief to not vax.

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#86 of 129 Old 07-13-2010, 05:02 PM
 
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[QUOTE=lilmissmommy;15617622] It's not okay to make major decisions about your child without the consent of the other parent, especially about your child's health and well being! QUOTE]

Just being the devil's advocate here...couldn't the father make the same argument?

I very much agree he should not have vaccinated the baby under these circumstances. I also can see where he might have believed he was helping his baby and his opinion was not being heard. I do realize he was given reading material but maybe that's not his learning style. I could see my husband thinking I was being condescending unless I was careful with my phrasing as I handed over a packet to be read before I would discuss anything further with him.

Sorry that you're having to deal with all this. I'm not saying the way you handled the discussion was incorrect. I'm just a little shocked at all the divorce advice.
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#87 of 129 Old 07-13-2010, 05:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maizy View Post
I am livid and I totally agree with much of your posts. I feel like divorcing him. I mean clearly there are other issues here. He constantly makes decisions without discussing with me but never to this severity. I did tell him last night this was a "deal breaker" but he has me in check mate. He is a loving dad. My sons adore him, I hate divorce. My kids will suffer if we are not together. If we did not have kids I would NOT be with him but we have kids and like someone mentioned in the post he could still do things w/o my ok.
mama i dont know how old your other kids are.

but the bolded reason is the reason why i would divorce him.

totally.

my children would suffer more in a different way - watching a relationship which really isnt one. where there is no truth. no communication.

vaccinating in your case is just the symptom, not the 'disease'.

but if i was thinking of leaving or even contemplating that i have had enough of this - the whole issue of how this was done would be the last straw on the camels back.

i am not asking you to divorce.

but look at the dynamics of what YOU want. YOU YOU YOU. you owe that to your kids.

however know i come from a single perspective myself. i walked out of mine. and it is the best thing i could have done for my dd. she has an adoring father. and an adoring mother. we just dont live in the same house.

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#88 of 129 Old 07-14-2010, 07:06 PM
 
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I'm not sure which is worse - the 8 vaccines or the betrayal by the husband.

Does he at least regret the decision? Does he understand the amount of toxins that the vaccines have deposited in his son's body? Or is he still glad he did it?

Roman Goddess, mom to J (August 2004) and J (April 2009).    h20homebirth.gif signcirc1.gif
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#89 of 129 Old 07-14-2010, 07:46 PM
 
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After reading through this thread, I'm not sure which is worse, either... the 8 vaccinations at once, the betrayal of the husband, or the fact that so many people are offering up their advice to the OP to divorce her husband without even really knowing either of them.

I think it would be respectful of the OP to let her make the judgements about her life and where she wants to go with her marriage without our interference, however well-intentioned.

She didn't start this thread to ask us whether or not she should divorce her husband - as I understand it, she needed a place where she could find a shoulder to cry on and somebody who could relate to what she is feeling.

Let's try to be there for her and not add to her distress by suggesting the normal thing to do would be a divorce.
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#90 of 129 Old 07-14-2010, 08:12 PM
 
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Try to understand why he did this. He did not do this to HURT you, he did not think "say, I'd like to really betray my wife", he consciously made the choice to go behind your back because you wouldn't back down and he thought he was acting in the best interest of his child. NO loving parent goes and sticks needles in his kid for kicks, he obviously thought he was doing the right thing. And to be fair, if YOU thought that there was something (other than vaccinating) to be done for the safety of your child, and your husband wouldn't budge, wouldn't you do the same thing? You know that parent feeling, your child's safety comes before ANYTHING else, it's just an instinct. But don't misunderstand me, you should feel hurt by it (and I really am sorry that you have to deal with this), but if you take a deep breath and ask yourself, is this the end of the world? I hope the answer is no. Hopefully you can have a gentle discussion, get some counseling, and move on. Forgiving and letting go (while not ignoring the issues that need to be worked out), is one of the most freeing things you can do for YOU. From what I've read you're staying in this relationship, bitterness & anger will do you no good. They are valid feelings that indicate a problem, and I hope you can resolve it gently for everyone's sake. It's hard to see when you're in the swamp, but this IS green grass on the other side! Hugs mama.

Christian SAHM & birth doula.
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