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#1 of 12 Old 07-13-2010, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Background to follow, but here's the general question: If fighting off a disease (acquired naturally) builds immunity, and if that building and storing of immunities makes the immune system overall more effective...in theory, should vaccines make the immune system overall more effective in the same way?

My son has a chromosomal deletion, a syndrome called DiGeorge Syndrome or Velocardiofacial Syndrome. He's doing really well, all things considered. We saw his Geneticist today for his yearly visit. This Dr is very pro-vaccine, and is truly flabbergasted that I don't allow Connor to have at least the inactive vaccines (he can't have the live vaccines because he has a primary immune deficiency).

He asked me what illnesses Connor has had in the last year, and I listed off a rather extensive list (including pneumonia, strep, several ear infections, etc) The Dr said to the Resident with him "I bet that many of these could have been prevented with proper vaccination." I wasn't going to let that fly, especially not in front of a Resident, so I said "just which illnesses do you think could have been prevented by which vaccines?" He said "well, to start with, the ear infections were probably haemophilus influenzae." I said "you're right actually, we cultured the infection each time, and it was h. flu., however it was a non-typeable strain, NOT B strain, so the vaccine would not have done a thing to prevent it." (I didn't even go into serotype replacement and how the non-typeable strains are becoming more prevalent now). I then told him that, with the exception of Chicken Pox and Rota Virus, he has not had a vaccine prevantable illness.

He kind of fumbled for a second, then said "well, vaccines improve the overall function of the immune system just as if he were acquiring natural infection, it primes his t-cell and b-cell reactions."

I told him that I had not found that information published anywhere in my research, and infact it has been suggested that the opposite might instead be true. But that I would be glad to read anything that he can offer me, because I am NOT against vaccines, I just think that given his risk factors of acquiring the illnesses, responding appropriately to the vaccine, or having an adverse reaction, it doesn't make sense *right now* to vaccinate him. But I am always open to new information and ready and willing to start vaccinating if I find some different or more compelling evidence.

So I'm interested to see what he will give me. In the meantime, I am researching this on my own. SO...what do you gals have on this topic? My initial thought is that perhaps the antibodies built from the vaccines would boost his immune system, but the other 'stuff' in the vaccines will lower his immune system, putting him at risk of acquiring auto-immune diseases (especially given his underlying immune deficiency and chromosomal deletion). So vaccine-induced antibodies are not the same as illness-acquired antibodies...the illness-acquired antibodies are more "pure" and longer lasting. [ooh...another question...why do they last longer if they come naturally vs via vaccination?] I already know (from published research on his syndrome) that it may take more doses of each vaccine before his titers show an appropriate level, so that's another aspect of vaccinating him that complicates things.

Mommy to BigBoy Ian (3-17-05) ; LittleBoy Connor (3-3-07) (DiGeorge/VCFS):; BabyBoy Gavin (10-3-09) x3 AngelBaby (1-7-06)
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#2 of 12 Old 07-13-2010, 04:37 PM
 
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Rubbish....

There is nothing he can give you, because there is no science published that will support this claim (Vaccines stregthen the immune system).

My understanding is that vaccination does not PRIME the b and t cell responses, it SKEWS them due to it's route of infection (ie injected rather than naturally aquired)

I found that this is a nice explanation by Phillip Incao, MD
http://www.compwellness.net/mp/How%2...ons%20Work.pdf

Some evidence that the tetanus vaccine supresses immune resposne can be found in this article : Eibl M et al, Abnormal T-lymphocyte subpopulations in healthy subjects after tetanus booster immunization (letter), New England J Med, 1984; 310(3):198-199.

and here: Beckenhauer, W H, et al, "Immunosuppression with Combined Vaccines", J AM Vet Med Assoc, Aug 15, 1983, 183(4):389-390.

Blumberg DA, "Leukocyte responses to diphtheria-tetanus- pertussis and diphtheria-tetanus immunization", Pediatr Infect Dis J 1991 Mar; 10(3):247-248.

Bastin, R et al, "Repeated Cholera Vaccination Immunological "Depressive" effect," Ann Med Interne (Paris), Jun-July 1974, 125(6-7):513-518.

Dankova E, et al. [Immunologic findings in children with abnormal reactions after vaccination]. Cesk Pediatr. 1993 Jan;48(1):9-12. Czech.PMID: 8477472; UI: 93238311.

Ehrland, W, "Susceptibility to Infection After Vaccination", Br Med J, Mar 11, 1972, 1:683.

Futton, A et al, "Vaccines May Cause Immune Suppression", Vaccine, Jan 1999, 17(2):126-133.

Martinez X et al. DNA immunization circumvents deficient induction of T helper type 1 and cytotoxic T lymphocyte responses in neonates and during early life. Proc of the National Academy of Sciences 94.8726-31 1997.

Stickl, H, "Iatrogenic Immunosuppression as a Result of Vaccination", Fortschr Med, Mar 5, 1981, 99(9):289-292.
Children", Acta Paediatr, 1992 Nov; 81(11):887-890.

There are tons of others

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#3 of 12 Old 07-13-2010, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Marnica View Post
Rubbish....

There is nothing he can give you, because there is no science published that will support this claim (Vaccines stregthen the immune system).

My understanding is that vaccination does not PRIME the b and t cell responses, it SKEWS them due to it's route of infection (ie injected rather than naturally aquired)

I found that this is a nice explanation by Phillip Incao, MD
http://www.compwellness.net/mp/How%2...ons%20Work.pdf
THANK YOU, Marnica!!!

That explanation is the most straight-forward, easy-to-understand explanation I've ever seen! I have been trudging through medical literature studying how the body's immune response is generated, trying to understand how to get Connor's immune system to respond appropriately. This helps tremendously!!!

Now I'm really curious what he will give me (if anything).

I really hate this "catch 22" of having a kid who is so susceptible to illness, likely to have severe cases of illnesses, but also who doesn't appear to mount appropriate immune responses and is at higher chance of vaccine side effects. I *WANT* to vaccinate him, I really do! I wish it was that simple! I wish that I could just give him the vaccine and rest assured that he is protected from at least that one (or two or three...) illness. But alas, every time that I try to find research to assure me vaccinating him is in his best interest, I end up determining, again, that it is not.

Mommy to BigBoy Ian (3-17-05) ; LittleBoy Connor (3-3-07) (DiGeorge/VCFS):; BabyBoy Gavin (10-3-09) x3 AngelBaby (1-7-06)
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#4 of 12 Old 07-13-2010, 06:01 PM
 
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Doctors are there to promote vaccines. I would not trust...
Also, besides weakened viruses - the vaccine is a crazy cocktail with all different ingridients, that body has to think hard how to deal with.

Also one's body might not be ready or might be "just not in the mood" to improve its own immune status, all of a sudden... (just my presumption... )


You might consider reading this article.
Dr. Joseph Mercola: "Vaccines and Immune Supression". http://www.mercola.com/article/vacci...uppression.htm
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#5 of 12 Old 07-13-2010, 09:16 PM
 
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he can't have the live vaccines because he has a primary immune deficiency
just wondering what the dr plans on doing for these?

short of keeping him in a bubble, what plane of action does the dr take to build his immune system(besides just saying the "other" vaccine will help out here)- are you and the dr assuming that he will at some point get a VPI, that he was unable to be vaccinated against?

in general what does the dr advise for "helping" his immune system?

is this just treat as you go medicine or is there certain things being done to help the over all immune system given his condition?

just wondering

 

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#6 of 12 Old 07-14-2010, 12:48 AM
 
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I would also mention to the doctor that in the pharm's own vaccine pamphlets, they state that individuals with immune system dysfuctions or other diseases should not have this vaccine. Per the Chicken Pox insert (Varivax):

Contraindications: Individuals with primary and acquired immunodeficiency states, including those who are immunosuppressed in association with AIDS or other clinical manifestations of infection with human immunodeficiency virus, cellular immune deficiencies, and hypogammaglobulinemic and dysgammaglobulinemic states.

Even the Inactive Polio Virus vaccines (IPOL) states that individuals who have an immune suppressing condition should not get the vaccine.

In fact, with every vaccine, it states that someone with an immune deficiency/suppression issue should not get the vaxes.
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#7 of 12 Old 07-14-2010, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
just wondering what the dr plans on doing for these?

short of keeping him in a bubble, what plane of action does the dr take to build his immune system(besides just saying the "other" vaccine will help out here)- are you and the dr assuming that he will at some point get a VPI, that he was unable to be vaccinated against?

in general what does the dr advise for "helping" his immune system?

is this just treat as you go medicine or is there certain things being done to help the over all immune system given his condition?

just wondering
The drs just hope that he will benefit from the "herd immunity". He's the type of kid that drs use as a reason to push vaccines on kids that would otherwise find illnesses like measles and chicken pox to be mild.

No one has any suggestions for me to boost his immune system, and I have asked very specifically. Even his Infectious Disease dr has no suggestions for me, other than to vaccinate him, and use common sense (hand washing, etc). Keeping him in a bubble is impossible and is even counter-intuitive because the only way his immune system will develop at all is if he is exposed to viruses and bacteria. It just is more risky to expose him because he could get so much more sick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angela512 View Post
I would also mention to the doctor that in the pharm's own vaccine pamphlets, they state that individuals with immune system dysfuctions or other diseases should not have this vaccine. Per the Chicken Pox insert (Varivax):

Contraindications: Individuals with primary and acquired immunodeficiency states, including those who are immunosuppressed in association with AIDS or other clinical manifestations of infection with human immunodeficiency virus, cellular immune deficiencies, and hypogammaglobulinemic and dysgammaglobulinemic states.

Even the Inactive Polio Virus vaccines (IPOL) states that individuals who have an immune suppressing condition should not get the vaccine.

In fact, with every vaccine, it states that someone with an immune deficiency/suppression issue should not get the vaxes.
No one is suggesting that he get the live vaccines, he is obviously contraindicated from those.

I need to re-read the package inserts, I thought the other vaccines didn't say that.

Mommy to BigBoy Ian (3-17-05) ; LittleBoy Connor (3-3-07) (DiGeorge/VCFS):; BabyBoy Gavin (10-3-09) x3 AngelBaby (1-7-06)
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#8 of 12 Old 07-14-2010, 08:50 AM
 
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Your right. My mistake...it was the live vaccines I was looking up that stated persons with immune disorders should not be given them. I would be concerned, however, with non-live vaccines as a lot of them contain neurotoxins, can cause heart issues, etc.

To boost his immune system?

Pull out all processed foods and give him as much organic, pesticide-free fruits and veggies as possible. Remove gluten, dairy, and as much grain as possible. If he eats meat, find a local free-range, organic farm that sells meat (tastes better ) and give him that. Remove as much refined stuff from his diet (white sugar), get rid of the HFCS and anything that has trans fats (hydrogenated/partially hydrogenated oils). Get him eating avocados, coconut milk, and other healthy fats. Take the juices, pop, etc out of his diet and have him drink more water. Make sure he's getting plenty of restful sleep each night. I've not read up on his condition, so I'm not sure what it entails, but maybe taking him to a homeopathic/naturopathic doctor will help you determine what mineral/vitamin imbalance he may have (especially if he's taking medication) and get his body balanced out. They will check for acidity/alkalinity balance.

Once his body is balanced out, and he's got as much processed foods out of his diet as possible (knowing that in this day and age, you cannot get rid of all of it...but having it become the exception instead of the norm is good), his immune system will be more primed and ready.

I think the key is removing as much processed/store bought foods as possible and replacing with whole/raw/organic foods so the body is really getting everything it does need and not the stuff it doesn't. I can say for myself, even though I ate well before changing out diet...I've noticed a huge difference in doing all of the above. Not just mentally and emotionally, but physically, as well. I feel healthier.

I hope you find something that works for you and your son.
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#9 of 12 Old 07-14-2010, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Your right. My mistake...it was the live vaccines I was looking up that stated persons with immune disorders should not be given them. I would be concerned, however, with non-live vaccines as a lot of them contain neurotoxins, can cause heart issues, etc.

To boost his immune system?

Pull out all processed foods and give him as much organic, pesticide-free fruits and veggies as possible. Remove gluten, dairy, and as much grain as possible. If he eats meat, find a local free-range, organic farm that sells meat (tastes better ) and give him that. Remove as much refined stuff from his diet (white sugar), get rid of the HFCS and anything that has trans fats (hydrogenated/partially hydrogenated oils). Get him eating avocados, coconut milk, and other healthy fats. Take the juices, pop, etc out of his diet and have him drink more water. Make sure he's getting plenty of restful sleep each night. I've not read up on his condition, so I'm not sure what it entails, but maybe taking him to a homeopathic/naturopathic doctor will help you determine what mineral/vitamin imbalance he may have (especially if he's taking medication) and get his body balanced out. They will check for acidity/alkalinity balance.

Once his body is balanced out, and he's got as much processed foods out of his diet as possible (knowing that in this day and age, you cannot get rid of all of it...but having it become the exception instead of the norm is good), his immune system will be more primed and ready.

I think the key is removing as much processed/store bought foods as possible and replacing with whole/raw/organic foods so the body is really getting everything it does need and not the stuff it doesn't. I can say for myself, even though I ate well before changing out diet...I've noticed a huge difference in doing all of the above. Not just mentally and emotionally, but physically, as well. I feel healthier.

I hope you find something that works for you and your son.
Yep, we do a lot of that. He's dairy and soy free (can now tolerate hidden dairy or cooked dairy in small amounts) and is low gluten (because my 5 year old is gluten-free with Celiac symptoms). He is supplemented with Vit C, Vit D, and Omegas. He gets probiotics every time he's on antibiotics. Our whole family has been making efforts to reduce processed foods (which was kind of forced on us in order to stick to this dairy free and gluten free diet). I hide veggies in a lot of foods, grow some veggies ourselves, and make fruit smoothies often. He drinks coconut milk, and is still breastfed (and I'm tandeming with a 9 month old, so he gets infant breastmilk, higher in fat and antibodies).

So we're taking our own steps to boost his immune system. He is doing so much better than most kids with his syndrome, so something must be working.

Mommy to BigBoy Ian (3-17-05) ; LittleBoy Connor (3-3-07) (DiGeorge/VCFS):; BabyBoy Gavin (10-3-09) x3 AngelBaby (1-7-06)
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#10 of 12 Old 07-14-2010, 10:15 AM
 
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Yep, we do a lot of that. He's dairy and soy free (can now tolerate hidden dairy or cooked dairy in small amounts) and is low gluten (because my 5 year old is gluten-free with Celiac symptoms). He is supplemented with Vit C, Vit D, and Omegas. He gets probiotics every time he's on antibiotics. Our whole family has been making efforts to reduce processed foods (which was kind of forced on us in order to stick to this dairy free and gluten free diet). I hide veggies in a lot of foods, grow some veggies ourselves, and make fruit smoothies often. He drinks coconut milk, and is still breastfed (and I'm tandeming with a 9 month old, so he gets infant breastmilk, higher in fat and antibodies).

So we're taking our own steps to boost his immune system. He is doing so much better than most kids with his syndrome, so something must be working.
I can't imagine how frustrating this all is for all of you! He's lucky yo have you as a mama....so informed, so diligent. Many moms would just do whatever the doctor tells them to do.

1 thing I would suggest...you mentioned he takes probiotics whenever he is on antibiotics. If he has even been on 1 or more rounds...he needs to be on them all the time, not just when he takes antibiotics.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#11 of 12 Old 07-15-2010, 04:28 AM
 
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Immune response and immune system are not the same thing.

A vaccine is designed to create a specific immune response to a specific
pathogen. The immune system is an integrated body system of organs,
tissues, cells, and cell products such as antibodies that differentiates
self from nonself. It is made up broadly of the innate system (non specific) and the adaptive system (specific).

Creating a specific immune response via vaccination does not mean the
overall immune system is stronger or more developed.

As someone else pointed out, the extras that come in vaccines, like
aluminum, also impact on the immune system.

Quote:
Aluminum salts (e.g. Aluminum hydroxide (Alum) (Römpp, 10 th Ed.
pages 139/140), Aluminum phosphate) are currently used as a vaccine
adjuvant in almost all available human vaccines [1]. However, aluminum
salts were shown to increase in humans, as well as in animals,
exclusively a shift to type 2 responses (cellular: IL-4
production, humoral: IgG 1 , IgE) [2]. The inability of aluminum salts
to elicit type 1 cell-mediated immune responses (cellular: IFN-γ
production, humoral: IgG 2 ) is a major limitation of its use as
adjuvant. Particularly for vaccines against intracellular viral and
bacterial infections, the lack of cytotoxic T cell responses is fatal.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0041998.html

Underlining mine. The article goes into more detail about the skewed
immune response from vaccines that use aluminum as an adjuvant.

The innate immune system is much less understood than the adaptive immune system, and yet, that is such an important component of the immune system. It is non specific and your 'first defense' so to speak. Vaccination has nothing to do with the development of the innate immune system.

Megan, mama to her little boy (Feb2008) and introducing our little girl (Dec 2010)
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#12 of 12 Old 07-15-2010, 02:37 PM
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You may be interested in these videos of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, regarding gut health and immunity. (These videos were made at an autism conference so there is a focus on gut and psychology but she goes into great depth about overall health and immunity, as well... IMO this information should be given to every parent!)

http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/gaps-diet/
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