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#1 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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**Sorry had to edit it, as I exceeded the 100 word copyright quote rule, didn't know about it.

I stumbled on this today while on my town's Public Health Unit website, searching for info on recent VPD reports or outbreaks. This is a pamphlet for doctors/ immunizers. So this is what our doctors are told to tell us to calm any of our completely irrational fears regarding vaccinations! I find it belittling and insulting, they obviously think we are all quite ignorant. Do they not realize that the general public nowadays tends to be more knowledgeable about our health and we don't want silly answers about ham sandwiches!? Seriously, if my doctor tried to talk me into vaccines using this rhetoric I'd think he was nuts.


Quote:
Will multiple injections overwhelm my baby’s immune system?
NO Your baby’s immune system is AMAZING.
Theoretically, babies have the capacity to produce one billion
antibodies. Therefore they could handle up to 10,000 shots at
any one time.
Seriously!!?? How can they even say that!? Is it not an outright lie considering there are many babies on VAERS who had life-threatening reactions to just ONE shot?

Quote:
...tried, tested and proven

Will multiple injections weaken my baby’s immune system?
NO On the contrary, vaccines strengthen the immune system.
Ummmm....

Quote:
DO VACCINES CAUSE... AUTISM?
NO There is no increased risk of autism with MMR vaccine.

IT’S JUST LIKE If you eat a ham sandwich and then get hit
by a car. The ham sandwich did not cause the car to hit you.
(bolding mine)

From: http://www.chatham-kent.ca/NR/rdonly...DC_IC_Tool.pdf
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#2 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 05:20 PM
 
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that is really condescending.
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#3 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post
that is really condescending.
Doctors always know best, right?

....


right?
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#4 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 05:43 PM
 
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Oh wow. Just.... oh. wow.

That link is something else. My favourite part is where they say getting a chicken pox vaccine reduces your risk of flesh eating disease. Really??

If you want to really make yourself nuts, try to get your hands on a copy of "Your Child's Best Shot" put out by the Canadian Pediatric Society. See if you can get it from the library or something - *don't* spend money on it!! It is much the same as that hand out.
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#5 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by just_lily View Post
Oh wow. Just.... oh. wow.

That link is something else. My favourite part is where they say getting a chicken pox vaccine reduces your risk of flesh eating disease. Really??
.
We could put our kids in bubbles because never getting a scratch would also do the same, right?
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#6 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 06:39 PM
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I'm glad they use simple examples like "ham sandwich" to explain things to me because, you know, I get really confused by all those big words doctors sometimes use
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Oh gee I remember this lecture when I was in nursing school. We were told to just tell parents that vaccines are very important and very safe. We were also reminded to let them know that they shouldn't trust whatever they read on the internet. Or to let them know that they MUST have their kids vaccinated if they want their kids to go to school. Pretty much we were coached on how to lie and talk to nervous parents like they were idiots.

I remember during this lecture all the students in class saying things like: "you mean people don't want to vaccinate their kids?", "isn't that illegal?", "who would do that to their kids?". I bit my tongue a lot that day.

Yeah...it's a wonder I didn't last long in the medical field.
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#8 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 07:28 PM
 
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I am seriously ashamed of my profession some days. We actually had a discussion about this in one of our healthcare provider meetings at work last year (during the H1N1 meltdown). When our pediatrician got off her high horse about uneducated non-vaxers, etc etc. The floor was opened for mor comments, and I simply asked the group if any of them questioned my research or decision making skills. They were confused (since I am paid to look things up & make decisions), but when they replied that they all had confidence in my abilities, I told them we were selective & delayed vaxers. It shut everyone up really quickly.

One of the midwives then admitted that her kids were unvaxed, and I think the pediatrician had a fit of apoplexy when one of the PAs asked if I would talk to her later about why I decided not to vax (she was preggers with her first at the time).
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#9 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 09:24 PM
 
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Can anybody tell me where this uncited tidbit comes from?

Quote:
DID YOU KNOW? More babies die of measles per year worldwide
than are born in Canada each year.
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#10 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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turquesa- interesting!

According to W.H.O.-
Quote:
# In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally – nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.
And Canada's birth rate that same year 07/08 is recorded at- 370,859.

Hmmm....wonder what year that pamphlet was printed...

Printed in 2000-

Canada's birth rate: 327, 882
Measles Deaths Worldwide: 733, 000 (unfoundation.org)

So I guess it was accurate at the time of printing, but is inaccurate info for 10 years later.
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#11 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 11:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Therefore they could handle up to 10,000 shots at
any one time.
And that would be... 2,500,000 mcg of aluminum (give or take depending on the vaccine). Does anyone remember what the toxic threshold for a 6 lb baby is? Oh yeah, 11 mcg. I'm sure 3.2 BILLION times the TOXIC level of aluminum given at once would be absolutely fine. After all, just the Hep B vaccine is already 20 times the toxic dose!

(end sarcasm)
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#12 of 75 Old 09-01-2010, 11:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anj_rn View Post
I think the pediatrician had a fit of apoplexy when one of the PAs asked if I would talk to her later about why I decided not to vax (she was preggers with her first at the time).
awesome

Quote:
IT’S JUST LIKE Most of us would not allow our children to drink unpasteurized milk even though it is “natural.” “Natural” is not always better.
actually, I actively seek out unpasturized/unhomogenized milk for my family, thankyouverymuch!

and the bit about seat belts, because, you know, seat belts are just as *safe* as vaccines.



not to mention the copious amount of pharma-funded *studies* done on vaccines to *prove* their safety

reminds me of the pamphlets/phonecall's i've received on behalf of my ds's health plan, and at the end of the recorded message, and at the bottom of the pamphlet, (both telling me that my son may have missed some shots) is a message saying that ____ pharma company sponsored this message. wow. just wow. (i've gotten 2 phonecalls and one mailing in about a month or two, all were probably related to the one-year shots (maybe one was about the 12 month shot and the next about a 14 month booster or something?)
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#13 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 01:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsJewelsRae View Post
turquesa- interesting!

According to W.H.O.-


And Canada's birth rate that same year 07/08 is recorded at- 370,859.

Hmmm....wonder what year that pamphlet was printed...

Printed in 2000-

Canada's birth rate: 327, 882
Measles Deaths Worldwide: 733, 000 (unfoundation.org)

So I guess it was accurate at the time of printing, but is inaccurate info for 10 years later.
Good catch! It's out of date because there was a huge vaccination campaign that slashed the measles deaths 78% between 2000 and 2008

http://www.measlesinitiative.org/

Quote:
With intervention by the Measles Initiative, measles deaths worldwide fell by 78% between 2000 and 2008, from 750,000 to 164,000. 4.3 million deaths have been averted due in large part to the Measles Initiative’s vaccination activities.

The Eastern Mediterranean region has seen measles deaths drop by 93 percent from 2000-2008 as a result of intensified vaccination

In Africa, measles deaths decreased an estimated 92 percent between 2000 and 2008. However, a number of countries experienced outbreaks in 2008 because of gaps in immunization coverage—both with the first dose delivered through routine immunization services as well as children missed during campaigns
[edited to shorten]
In the reprint of that pamphlet it should now say DID YOU KNOW? Before widespread vaccination more babies died of measles per year worldwide
than were born in Canada each year.
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#14 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 02:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Good catch! It's out of date because there was a huge vaccination campaign that slashed the measles deaths 78% between 2000 and 2008

http://www.measlesinitiative.org/



In the reprint of that pamphlet it should now say DID YOU KNOW? Before widespread vaccination more babies died of measles per year worldwide
than were born in Canada each year.
Would you estimate that vaccination drives are more important than clean water, access to regular nourishing meals and stable social, political and economic conditions for the family?
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#15 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 02:57 AM
 
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There have also been campaigns to provide shots of Vitamin A, which has been shown to dramatically decrease measles deaths.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeofAnt View Post
And that would be... 2,500,000 mcg of aluminum (give or take depending on the vaccine). Does anyone remember what the toxic threshold for a 6 lb baby is? Oh yeah, 11 mcg. I'm sure 3.2 BILLION times the TOXIC level of aluminum given at once would be absolutely fine. After all, just the Hep B vaccine is already 20 times the toxic dose!

(end sarcasm)

They also say:

Quote:
DID YOU KNOW? Aluminum is present in breast milk
(40 g/L) and in infant formula (225 g/L) in similar
amounts as in vaccines. This amount is very small and
extremely safe for infants.15
Any truth to this?? I'd think that if it were true, a marathon nursing session would be toxic
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#17 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 07:12 AM
 
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Yes, there is aluminium in formula and in breastmilk. The question is, how does the body process it when it is swallowed (ingested) and how does the body process it when it is injected, in general. And what are the variables that make for more efficient metabolism and excretion of aluminium?

Not much is known about the safety of injected aluminium. There are safety limits for aluminium being injected directly in the bloodstream through IV, but not much is known about how the body metabolises intramuscular and subcutaneous injected aluminium. The question is also how well the individual is able to excrete aluminium. Not everyone excretes it as effeciently as others.

An 'old' study, Aluminum Neurotoxicity in Preterm Infants Receiving Intravenous-Feeding Solutions

Quote:
These results provide support for our hypothesis that intravenous aluminum may have neurotoxic effects, with longer-term consequences for neurologic development.
This study is obvisouly not about vaccines, but it does raise the question as to whether it is such a good idea to be injecting so much aluminium with so little known about the safety of this practice.

Telling you how much aluminium is in your breastmilk is a bit of a red herring, as it is comparing apples and oranges, and distracting you from the fact that the scientific community know next to nothing about the safety of injecting aluminium.
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#18 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 11:38 AM
 
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Would you estimate that vaccination drives are more important than clean water, access to regular nourishing meals and stable social, political and economic conditions for the family?
How much do you think stabilizing the governments of every third world country will cost? Considering how long, how expensive and how successful we've been in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then you need to create an entire first world infrastructure of transport, hospitals, drains, water treatment plants and sewerage treatment plants, food subsidies, poverty eradication, communications infrastructure and so on. The US's infrastructure is crumbling due to lack of money to maintain it. Do you think a poor country can do a better job of maintaining theirs?

The greatest minds in the world have been working on how to do it for years and have had very little impact. Do you think that refusing to vaccinate poor children and then using their deaths as ammunition to lobby for political change would really work?
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#19 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 11:39 AM
 
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There have also been campaigns to provide shots of Vitamin A, which has been shown to dramatically decrease measles deaths.
However, you have to keep coming back and giving shots on a regular basis. Vaccination provides lifelong immunity without the risks of infection.
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#20 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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Vaccination does not provide life long immunity. You have to come back and keep giving shots. That's just not true!
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#21 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 12:43 PM
 
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Um, isn't it common knowlage that vaccination doesn't provide lifelong immunity? Maybe I missed something. There is an adult vaccination schedule right?
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#22 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 12:54 PM
 
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Considering the recent program slashed the deaths by giving one booster, and most people should get one or two more in their life, that's lifelong. How long until a vitamin A supplement clears the body? A year or two? A month or two? How are you going to keep going in there so often and give every person vitamin A?
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#23 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
 
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My understanding of the measles vax is that is actually very good at giving life-long immunity to most people as it is a live virus vaccine. About 200 yrs is the estimation, I have no idea where they get that from but I picked it up from a pubmed article somewhere, I wish I could link to it.

The measles is actually one of the few vaccines that i plan to give my kids.
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#24 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
How much do you think stabilizing the governments of every third world country will cost? Considering how long, how expensive and how successful we've been in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then you need to create an entire first world infrastructure of transport, hospitals, drains, water treatment plants and sewerage treatment plants, food subsidies, poverty eradication, communications infrastructure and so on. The US's infrastructure is crumbling due to lack of money to maintain it. Do you think a poor country can do a better job of maintaining theirs?

The greatest minds in the world have been working on how to do it for years and have had very little impact. Do you think that refusing to vaccinate poor children and then using their deaths as ammunition to lobby for political change would really work?
Mama, whoa, US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is in the form of military invasion and occupation. This has nothing to do with stabilizing these countries in the sense the poster was noting. When US speaks of stabilizing these countries they are speaking in terms of stabilizing potential risk to the west. Not the same thing.

And "first world infrastructure" is not needed to develop access to clean water, sanitation, and education. Many of the "greatest minds" working on global poverty solutions estimate that successful alleviation would cost between 60 billion/annually to about 200 billion, lump sum, depending who you ask. the Iraq war alone has cost more that 700 billion.
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#25 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 02:34 PM
 
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And yet, it still hasn't happened. And, one of the huge issues in implementing those sorts plans is political stability (think of the Congo/Zaire). I ask again, are you willing to keep allowing children to die of measles so you have a shocking number to lobby for political change with? This campaign has saved the lives of 586,000 people this year alone. Half a million people, in a year. They've achieved this in eight years, for less than $2 per person with vaccination.
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#26 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 02:53 PM
 
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Even if vaccines save lives in developing countries, I don't understand why that should affect my decision where I live (Canada).

I am not anti-vaccine. I am pro-informed consent and believe that every parent should do their own research and make their own decisions without such blatent arm twisting as this. I think vaccines have some merits, and do work - just not as effectively as the powers that be try to lead us to believe. And they absolutely come with significant risk.

When we made our vaccine decision, we weighed the pros and cons of each option. Since we have access to clean water, proper nutrition, antibiotics, and decent health care, we felt that the risks of vaccines outweigh the risks of disease.

If I was living in Afghanistan with none of those things available, would I make the same decision? I don't know... maybe not. I don't see it as a relative factor though.

India still has the plague. I don't let that keep me up either.

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#27 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 05:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsJewelsRae View Post
turquesa- interesting!

So I guess it was accurate at the time of printing, but is inaccurate info for 10 years later.
Thanks for digging that up!
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#28 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 08:52 PM
 
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Just a reminder to remain focused on vaccine issues in this forum. This is not the appropriate place to delve into other political or socioeconomic issues.
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#29 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 09:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by just_lily View Post
Even if vaccines save lives in developing countries, I don't understand why that should affect my decision where I live (Canada).

India still has the plague. I don't let that keep me up either.
Antibiotics aren't effective against measles, because measles is a virus. In fact, almost all vaccines are for viral diseases for just that reason. Plague is not a big deal these days because it's susceptible to antibiotics, and transmission mostly requires fleas and rats.

But, for viruses, Canada is only a few hours on a plane away from anywhere. Look at how fast swine flu spread.
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#30 of 75 Old 09-02-2010, 09:45 PM
 
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Not that this adds much to the conversation, but the plague is still around in North America. In California, where I live, it is spread by native ground squirrils. I had a student once who had had it...caught it off a locker room floor in Orange County.

Sorry...continue.
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