new study looks at both pre and post natal exposure to ethlymercury - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/22131

"Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism"

very well done study, looking at both pre and post natal exposure with patient interviews and good records. They conclude no increased risk of any of the autism categories.


please excuse the typo in title

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#2 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 10:53 AM
 
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http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/22131

"Prenatal and infant exposure to thimerosal from vaccines and immunoglobulins and risk of autism"

very well done study, looking at both pre and post natal exposure with patient interviews and good records. They conclude no increased risk of any of the autism categories.


please excuse the typo in title
It's funny (now I havent read it yet and you can bet that when I have a good hour to sit down and take a careful look I will) but I don't care what it concludes, I will never get any vaccine while pregnant, nor will any future infant of mine get any vaccine with thimerosol in it. EVER

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#3 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 11:00 AM
 
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They conclude no increased risk of any of the autism categories.
Yet she says...

Quote:
"No single study can definitively establish or disprove the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure increases the risk of autism spectrum disorders," DeStefano and colleagues pointed out, given that randomized trials would be unethical.
and also admits to limitations in their study.
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#4 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Right, its another piece of the puzzle...a puzzle with a lot of pieces showing no evidence. I thought this piece was interesting especially because it speaks to a lot of the things people complain about with other autism/ethylmercury studies (regression, in person interviews, prenatal exposure through immunoglobins, flu shots, etc, etc etc).

It is very well done. I recommend taking a look at the full thing. If you need access to the full thing, a few science bloggers have it and most are willing to email you if you ask.

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#5 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's funny (now I havent read it yet and you can bet that when I have a good hour to sit down and take a careful look I will) but I don't care what it concludes, I will never get any vaccine while pregnant, nor will any future infant of mine get any vaccine with thimerosol in it. EVER
I don't think they were saying go out and get vaccines while pregnant; i believe the idea was to counter the often used argument that flu vaccination while pregnant could be the cause of ASDs; I see that a lot here, esp in threads concerning unvaccinated kids and autism ("well, maybe the mom had vaccines while pregnant" kwim?)

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#6 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 11:29 AM
 
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I have to admit to reading only the medpagetoday article and not yet the full text version. But, I was very impressed that they took into account pre-natal exposures via mom's vax during pregnancy. I'm curious as to how they would have calculated it?

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#7 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 07:31 PM
 
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I have to admit to reading only the medpagetoday article and not yet the full text version. But, I was very impressed that they took into account pre-natal exposures via mom's vax during pregnancy. I'm curious as to how they would have calculated it?
They used records from people who were in HMOs, so there were records for all of the moms as well as the kids. They looked at ethylmercury exposure via vaccines (flu shot, TD, Tdap), and immunoglobulin (such as RhoGam).
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#8 of 47 Old 09-13-2010, 10:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

Quote:
They conclude no increased risk of any of the autism categories.
Yet she says...

Quote:
"No single study can definitively establish or disprove the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure increases the risk of autism spectrum disorders," DeStefano and colleagues pointed out, given that randomized trials would be unethical.
and also admits to limitations in their study.
Yeah...I defy you to find me a research study that doesn't "admit" to limitations. There is no such thing as a perfect research study. Part of being a good researcher is properly noting the limitations of the study, and that doesn't preclude it from being strong research. At all.

Also? Not to pick on you, but stating that they failed to find a significant increase in autism risk, and then stating that they can't disprove the autism hypothesis, is not contradictory. In science, the only way you can DISPROVE a hypothesis is through direct experimentation, which, as they mentioned, is impossible here. That doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist, and it certainly doesn't mean that evidence isn't a strong indicator of the nature of a relationship (or lack thereof).

This is the kind of stuff you learn in research methods 101. These articles are written with the expectation that the reader will have a grasp of research methodology, and when it's not the case, the results are often misinterpreted.

It's actually a really, really interesting study.
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#9 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:29 AM
 
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I have not read the study, only the article posted.

I did find this:
Quote:
Prenatal exposures were calculated from mothers' receipt of immunoglobulins, tetanus toxoids, and diphtheria-tetanus immunizations during pregnancy.
No mention of influenza vaccines.

With regard to dose of thimerasol, I am pretty sure the DT and the influenza both have 25 micrograms of mercury. So it is not really a relavant point. Excpet that there is no mentions in this text of influenza vaccines.

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#10 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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it's in the full text, which is available for free on the pediatrics site. They did look at flu vaccine as well as the others.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ds.2010-0309v1

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#11 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 11:13 AM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628441

eta: I have not read this study entire and and not expressing an opinion on it one way or the other, just posting it for your reading pleaseure (or displeasure)

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#12 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 12:28 PM
 
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I did some research about this study you quoted, and it seems to be a very sketchy study. The author touts the "review" it received from the Institute of Chronic Illnesses....which is a company registered at his own home address.

Also, the author runs a business selling Chelation therapy, and has a more than tiny vested interest in convincing parents that their children need chelation.

http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/98/

Some studies are more trustworthy than others.
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#13 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There is a ton wrong with the Geier study; not sure if it would be a thread throw off here- maybe we could start a new one to discuss it. I suppose one huge issue is that its the Geier's doing it-- ya know, the ones pumping autistic kids full of Lupron (at levels higher than adult dosage!)

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#14 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 01:07 PM
 
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Ok, did you actually read that study, or just the abstract? Cause there are some pretty big problems with the quality of that study. Like the small sample size. And the lack of information about how subjects were chosen. The lack of cohort-matching. Should I go on? I don't think that study and the study just published in Pediatrics can even be mentioned in the same breath.
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#15 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 01:25 PM
 
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So what criteria are you using to judge the validity of this study vs the one mentioned in the OP?
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#16 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 01:53 PM
 
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Marnica- I really don't mean this in a snarky way. But you said:

Quote:
It's funny (now I havent read it yet and you can bet that when I have a good hour to sit down and take a careful look I will) but I don't care what it concludes, I will never get any vaccine while pregnant, nor will any future infant of mine get any vaccine with thimerosol in it. EVER
You're obviously not basing your choices on the science behind it, then. Which is certainly your choice. But why, then, try to DISPROVE it if you're not interested in the validity of it? KWIM?
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#17 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IntrovertExtrovert View Post
I did some research about this study you quoted, and it seems to be a very sketchy study. The author touts the "review" it received from the Institute of Chronic Illnesses....which is a company registered at his own home address.

Also, the author runs a business selling Chelation therapy, and has a more than tiny vested interest in convincing parents that their children need chelation.

http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/98/

Some studies are more trustworthy than others.
Oh I couldn't agree with you more.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#18 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:44 PM
 
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Marnica- I really don't mean this in a snarky way. But you said:



You're obviously not basing your choices on the science behind it, then. Which is certainly your choice. But why, then, try to DISPROVE it if you're not interested in the validity of it? KWIM?
Not trying to disprove anything Heather. I simply posted a link to a study. As PP has mentioned, they do not feel it is a valid study due to author conflict of interest. No skin off my nose. People are free to make whatever choice they feel is best. And to assume that I discount science because I said I didn't care what this study concluded is wrong. I have done my research 5+ years of it. The conclusion I have come to has been after many hours of pouring over scientific studies and trying to reconcile what I find on both sides of the equation with what I feel in my heart is the best choice for my kid.

As to the others posters - IT WAS JUST A LINK. Did I state any opinion on it one way or the other?

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#19 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If you meant me, I would like to clarify that i said ONE reason it is suspect to me is the author. There are tons of other reasons, which I thought would throw the thread off topic. but they seem to have been covered; though mercury diagnosis angle as not yet but, again, I would discuss this in a dedicated thread if you want.

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#20 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:55 PM
 
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If you meant me, I would like to clarify that i said ONE reason it is suspect to me is the author. There are tons of other reasons, which I thought would throw the thread off topic. but they seem to have been covered; though mercury diagnosis angle as not yet but, again, I would discuss this in a dedicated thread if you want.
No I was actually referring to intovertextrovert.

No Im not interested in discussing it in a separate thread, although others may be. As I mentioned I do not feel thimerosol is safe based on my years of research. I choose to not give any vaccines with it to my child, myself or any future children. Others are free to inject away based on what they have concluded. I sleep pretty well at night with the choices I make. I truly am not interested in disproving anything. I have learned that this is futile anyways there will ALWAYS be valid scientific information that lands on both sides. I'm not really sure what I expected from posting that link to the article since it's pretty clear most folks responding to this thread have come to other conclusions which is totally fine.
and now I am
from this thread

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#21 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One would figure if you posted a study that you believe in, there are probable reasons for it. I suppose we just wanted to see what they were, seeing as though many feel the study is incredibly poorly done.

And if there is good research out there, why post that one?

and if you didn't mean it to counter the study in the OP...?

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#22 of 47 Old 09-14-2010, 04:35 PM
 
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Ah, now that I have figured out how to get past the glitch of my computer not opening PDF's, I see that they did include influenza vaccines. 2 of the mothers had it on record that they had been vaccinated for influenza. 36 mothers recalled having been vaccinated for influenza, and this was recorded as them having been vaccinated.

Which is probably not particularly relevant, except that it being recorded in the medical file is probably more reliable than a mother recollecting that she was vaccinated when she was pregnant.

At first glance, the study looks comprehensive and reassuring. They have certainly been able to address many concerns associated with the safety of injected thimerosal.

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#23 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 09:05 AM
 
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O.K. Some more reading and I have a question for those with an answer or opinion. The objective is phrased:

Quote:
OBJECTIVE: Exposure to thimerosal, a mercury-containing preserva-
tive that is used in vaccines and immunoglobulin preparations, has
been hypothesized to be associated with increased risk of autism spec-
trum disorder (ASD). This study was designed to examine relationships
between prenatal and infant ethylmercury exposure from thimerosal-
containing vaccines and/or immunoglobulin preparations and ASD and
2 ASD subcategories: autistic disorder (AD) and ASD with regression.
And the conclusion is phrased:
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS: In our study of MCO members, prenatal and early-life
exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines and
immunoglobulin preparations was not related to increased risk of
ASDs. Pediatrics 2010;126:656–664
I understand this study to be addressing the question as to whether being exposed to mercury is a risk factor for Autism. I have bolded the word that I think could be critical.

From the data that is available, there does not seem to be any difference in risk associated with differences in levels of exposure, or timing of exposure. In fact, according to this study, exposure to mercury could be protective against Autism.

But isn't exposure only part of the concern regarding mercury and Autism? From my limited understanding there is also the concern that some people do not excrete it as efficiently as others. Making it necessary to not only measure how much mercury a person is exposed to, but also how they excrete in order to understand what role mercury is or is not playing in any health concerns.

To the best of what I understand when reading this study, the metabolism of mercury is not addressed, only the exposure.

I do think it is a good starting place in trying to unravel just what is going on with injecting neurotoxins, but I am not sure that it is quite as reassuring as some people are claiming it is.

It could be interesting to see a case control study for exposure and excretion of mercury. But yeah, I am pretty sure that won't be happening any time soon. I am sure this will be the last mercury autism study for a long time. So many have been done, and they pretty much all have reassuring conclusions, despite only partially asked/answered questions.

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#24 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 09:35 AM
 
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I was just coming to post the article I haven't read it yet-just woke up a bit ago and saw it everywhere.

Ema-?-are you referring to being reassured yourself about the Mercury/Autism connection, or you feel they won't do another study, because this study will reassure a ton of other people and put lay to rest asking for another study?
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#25 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
But isn't exposure only part of the concern regarding mercury and Autism? From my limited understanding there is also the concern that some people do not excrete it as efficiently as others. Making it necessary to not only measure how much mercury a person is exposed to, but also how they excrete in order to understand what role mercury is or is not playing in any health concerns.

To the best of what I understand when reading this study, the metabolism of mercury is not addressed, only the exposure.
I guess in a large enough sample size, you'd get enough poor excreters to show up in the results. I'm not a scientist, and I don't know how common it would be to poorly excrete such things, so I don't know how large of a sample size would be needed.
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#26 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 11:11 AM
 
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http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=19...DD0A899DC62BDC

In case you are not aware of this woman, she worked for a major pharma company for 15 years and decided she could no longer continue on in good conscience.

The pharmaceutical companies are controlling what you hear and read in many instances. They control politicians and policy makers, magazines and 'health' organizations, insurance companies too. The ties and revolving door of pharma, govt positions, and the money trail are well documented. Any study presented is most likely approved of by pharma. Pharma is not in the business of promoting wellness. Think about it! If people were to become well, they would be out of business. All of the 'health' field bears this because of its very design. The 'health' care industry could not exist if there was health.

As for any study that says there is no neurological damage from vaccines, the answer is obvious to me. Too many people have had a healthy child one minute and a damaged child the next. It happens after a vaccine every time. Numbers can be skewed, data can be 'interpreted'. Outright lies have been found in more than one 'study' by the major players. I believe what I know is true, injecting toxins can not create health. Health is created by avoiding those sorts of occurrences as much as possible (obviously we have to breathe).

To begin to save the world, we must first nurture the children. Read "The Continuum Concept: In Search of Happiness Lost"    saynovax.gifgoorganic.jpgintactlact.gifMe-hippie.gifreading.gifhelp.gif10.5 yo dd1- nut.gifreading.gifblahblah.gif ; 5 yo dd2- angel.gifhearts.gifbouncy.gif
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#27 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 01:06 PM
 
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But isn't exposure only part of the concern regarding mercury and Autism? From my limited understanding there is also the concern that some people do not excrete it as efficiently as others. Making it necessary to not only measure how much mercury a person is exposed to, but also how they excrete in order to understand what role mercury is or is not playing in any health concerns.
If that were an issue, there would have been an effect in the study because those people who are less efficient excretors of mercury would be showing increased risk of ASDs. Unless the study somehow happened to exclude that entire population from its sample set, or if the effect existed but was so minuscule that it only barely reached the threshold of statistical significance in that subpopulation so that it got diluted out by the larger population of efficient excretors.

Given that this is only one of many studies to address this issue and reach the same conclusion -- and given that studies consistently demonstrate, in country after country, that ASD diagnosis has continued to rise even as thimerosal is used in fewer and fewer vaccinations -- that seems like a very weak criticism to me.
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#28 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 01:13 PM
 
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I guess in a large enough sample size, you'd get enough poor excreters to show up in the results. I'm not a scientist, and I don't know how common it would be to poorly excrete such things, so I don't know how large of a sample size would be needed.
I don't know if anyone knows how common it is to poorly excrete mercury. If anyone has an indication I would be interested to read it.

My guess is there would be a variety of factors involved in why someone poorly excretes mercury.

A concern is that a study like this might result in the medical professions not asking more questions. Admittedly this is a small subgroup within the whole population, but it is worrying to think that this group of children could be missed for lack of further research.

Bbrandonsmum, I obviously do not know what future research will be done. But I am suspicious that some medical professionals will see this as the last study that needs to be done and take home the message that it is inconsequential whether you inject mercury into babies or children. Which at this time we still do not know.

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#29 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 01:19 PM
 
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If that were an issue, there would have been an effect in the study because those people who are less efficient excretors of mercury would be showing increased risk of ASDs. Unless the study somehow happened to exclude that entire population from its sample set, or if the effect existed but was so minuscule that it only barely reached the threshold of statistical significance in that subpopulation so that it got diluted out by the larger population of efficient excretors.

Given that this is only one of many studies to address this issue and reach the same conclusion -- and given that studies consistently demonstrate, in country after country, that ASD diagnosis has continued to rise even as thimerosal is used in fewer and fewer vaccinations -- that seems like a very weak criticism to me.
Can you show me where in the study they measured the excretion of mercury?

There has been some debate on whether the rise is a real rise or not.

I happen to believe there is an environmental element in the etiology of some Autism diagnoses, of which vaccines are but one element. You will not find me advocating for stopping vaccination to reduce the numbers in Autism diagnosis.

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#30 of 47 Old 09-15-2010, 01:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post
Can you show me where in the study they measured the excretion of mercury?
Can you reread my post and then demonstrate your understanding by explaining why that's not necessary?


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There has been some debate on whether the rise is a real rise or not.
That's true. Many researchers have pointed out that the seemingly alarming, meteoric rise in ASD diagnosis rates matches very closely a drop in diagnosis of mental retardation (or non-ASD developmental disabilities, or "intellectual disability", which I believe is the current term of art.) That at least suggests the hypothesis that kids who were diagnosed as mentally retarded 50 years ago are now being recognized as being autistic.
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