Do you think vaxes work? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm researching vaccinations and I've started to doubt that they even work at all. But what about Chicken Pox? Since the use of the vaccine, there's been a drastic drop in the number of cases. So, it must work, huh? Am I missing something major?

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#2 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 03:13 PM
 
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This is just my opinion based on my research and life experience:

Vaccines do not work the way they are designed to work. Humans have experimented with forms of vaccination for thousands of years; Chinese used a form of smallpox vaccination for centuries, and still there was smallpox. It has been quarantine, improved nutrition, irrigation, and sanitation of the last one hundred and fifty years that has improved the rate of morbidity and mortality of infectious and childhood disease outcomes, not government-coerced, artificial immunizations.

Instead of infectious disease, we have chronic disease. For example, instead of chicken pox, we now have adults with shingles.

IF this is preventative medicine, I will take my chances with disease.

Just my carefully researched, educated observation, nothing more, nothing less.

Editted to add that I do not believe in the germ theory of disease. I suspect that science has been stopped from progressing because of this. We are still stuck in the 18th century as far as disease prevention and treatment are concerned.
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#3 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 03:52 PM
 
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IMO

Overall, vaxes work. Not for everone, but for the majority of people.

But at what cost?

IMO The decision to vax is a risk/risk analysis. There are risks of the VPD and risks from the vaxes. You have to weigh the risks and then make the best decision for your family.

(I think the Dr. Sears Vaccine Book spells out the risks reasonable well.)

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#4 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 04:41 PM
 
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I think some are more effective than others.....

Measles and HIB vaccine both ones I think are very effective overall....but not worth the price of any benefit that may be acheived. JMHO

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#5 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 04:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Xerxella View Post
IMO

Overall, vaxes work. Not for everone, but for the majority of people.

But at what cost?

IMO The decision to vax is a risk/risk analysis. There are risks of the VPD and risks from the vaxes. You have to weigh the risks and then make the best decision for your family.

(I think the Dr. Sears Vaccine Book spells out the risks reasonable well.)
This exactly.

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#6 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 05:38 PM
 
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What Xerxella said.

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#7 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 07:31 PM
 
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I think that for the most part, they work. I believe that they're dangerous as well though. For one, they often have neuro-toxic ingredients. They rev up your immune system without having a real illness to fight which can trigger auto-immune disorders. They can be contaminated. They're created by humans with an ever-changing idea of good medicine. There's the issue of serotype replacement that happens with some of them. There's the issue of older people now being susceptible to shingles because of not getting the repeated natural exposure to Chicken pox (from children) that they used to get.

If we lived in a place with that was not hygienic and where good food/nutrition was not available, then they might be worth the risks.

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#8 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 08:00 PM
 
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I think it depends on how you define "work".
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#9 of 25 Old 11-01-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pacifica View Post
I'm researching vaccinations and I've started to doubt that they even work at all. But what about Chicken Pox? Since the use of the vaccine, there's been a drastic drop in the number of cases. So, it must work, huh? Am I missing something major?
Is the chicken pox vax working or is it just putting off the time when you actually contract the disease from early childhood to young adulthood or beyond when it's more dangerous? After all, it doesn't convey lifelong immunity, you need booster shots and noone really knows how many or how often. Hasn't shingles been on the rise the past few years, pretty much during the same time frame that the chicken pox vax entered the schedule?


I think in some cases, vaxes work, but so does better sanitation and health care . I'm just not sure that the potential risks of a reaction to the ingredients in the vaccine is worth the chance that the vax itself might actually prevent the disease. Then there's the case of vaxes like HIB where it's so effective it's effectively created a vacuum, which is rapidly being filled by other strains of the same disease, strains for which there is no vaccine. So while instances of illness caused by those specific strains has decreased, instances of the overall illness has remained the same.
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#10 of 25 Old 11-02-2010, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks all. My pea brain really wants to make this decision cut and dry, but it's more complex than that. Ugh.

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#11 of 25 Old 11-02-2010, 01:18 PM
 
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I wish it was cut and dry. My thoughts are pretty much the same as everyone else they may work but at what risk? I don't believe it's worth it but I can understand why some people feel it is. When I looked into it I decided that if nothing else delayed/selective vax was better than the normal schedule. If you look at the CDC catch up schedule it negates a lot of the shots if you wait. Just a thought.

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#12 of 25 Old 11-02-2010, 01:19 PM
 
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There is probably some extent of vaxes working, but as others have said, I am not sure I want to gamble with the risks involved.

Interestingly enough, in my line of work, I talk about vaccines a lot with my clients because they are already immuno-compromised. I have recommended that my clients get vaccines, but mainly because it is a performance standard for my agency. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it.

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#13 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 01:54 PM
 
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#14 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 02:32 PM
 
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If one looks back at the actual data source, it seems that Obomsawin played it pretty fast and loose in constructing his measles incidence figure, not least by choosing to start in a peak year. It might be worthwhile to compare with the full data set or the U.S. incidence data, which don't suffer from a 10-year reporting gap surrounding the event that is being examined.
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#15 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow!

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#16 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 03:48 PM
 
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I think it depends on how you define "work".
This.

If the goal is overall health and wellness, then my answer would be no. If the goal is the prevention of spreading a specific disease, then it's possible they work to a limited extent. (Although the issues of breakthrough infection and serotype replacement make me wonder if there's any net gain to vaccination programs, or if we're just trading one sickness for another, less treatable one.)

Maybe--and it's a big maybe--we can reduce the rates of certain diseases among the vaccinated population, but at what cost to long-term health and wellness? Maybe a vaccinated child won't contract [typically mild childhood illness], but if she develops an incurable autoimmune or neurological disorder from the vaccine, is she really better off?

This is really the crux of the issue, I think. When you read "I'd rather treat a sick child than risk injuring or killing a healthy child", as is so often repeated here, that's what it boils down to. The risks of vaccination seem, at this point, to far outweigh any potential long-term benefits to the overall health and wellness of the child.

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#17 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 06:43 PM
 
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This.

If the goal is overall health and wellness, then my answer would be no. If the goal is the prevention of spreading a specific disease, then it's possible they work to a limited extent. (Although the issues of breakthrough infection and serotype replacement make me wonder if there's any net gain to vaccination programs, or if we're just trading one sickness for another, less treatable one.)

Maybe--and it's a big maybe--we can reduce the rates of certain diseases among the vaccinated population, but at what cost to long-term health and wellness? Maybe a vaccinated child won't contract [typically mild childhood illness], but if she develops an incurable autoimmune or neurological disorder from the vaccine, is she really better off?

This is really the crux of the issue, I think. When you read "I'd rather treat a sick child than risk injuring or killing a healthy child", as is so often repeated here, that's what it boils down to. The risks of vaccination seem, at this point, to far outweigh any potential long-term benefits to the overall health and wellness of the child.
Agreed!!
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#18 of 25 Old 11-03-2010, 09:52 PM
 
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"Work" as far as creating health with a stronger immune system? Nope, I don't think so because injecting toxins, chemicals, diseased matter, viruses, bacteria, etc. into he bloodstream, bypassing all of the body's natural defenses of filtering out foreign matter, allowing the matter to settle anyhere inside the body, possibly turning into allergies, cancer, arthritis, etc... I don't think creates health, but instead it contributes to an unhealthier body and possibly permanently diseased or damaged body. I think proper nutrition, sanitation, rest, sunshine, etc. all "work" as far as creating health.

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#19 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 10:09 AM
 
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Yep.

Well, they work in a lab environment. And they work in a "statistically measurable" way. But they do not work in 100% of people and are not claimed to work in 100% of people. They are also contraindicated for many people. The hope is that statistically enough people will develop immunity to prevent the transmission of the disease.

They are not intended to "create health". They are intended to produce a specific physical reaction in the body against whatever specific disease is in the vax to produce immunity or at least partial immunity. We don't vax because we think vaxes will make us overall healthier people. We vax because we want to up the chances of not contracting certain diseases.

But I totally do not buy the supposed dangers of vaccines to people who are healthy. (I know that people who already have health issues need to be careful of vaxes for several reasons) So I'm coming at it from a very different premise than most here.
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#20 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But I totally do not buy the supposed dangers of vaccines to people who are healthy. (I know that people who already have health issues need to be careful of vaxes for several reasons) So I'm coming at it from a very different premise than most here.
I used to have this same believe. Maybe it's true. Is this a gut feeling you have or do you come to this conclusion from researching? When my boys were born, I didn't question whether to vaccinate, I just did it. 2 month, 4 months, 6 months were all recommended scheduled vaccines and I even added prevnar for added protection. Then a friend of mine asked me what I did for the boys vaccinations and gave me a book to read....I believe it was "What you're doctor doesn't tell you about vaccinations" or something like that. One of her daughters stopped breathing and had to go to ER after her 4 month round of shots, so she started researching. Anyways, after reading a little about vaccinations, I began to selective/delayed vaccinations. Now my boys have a large majority of shots, no MMR or CP (and 2/3 Polio).

So, now I have a newborn and have started researching again. I want to do what is best and safest for my children. If that means vaccinating, then I'll vaccinate. I am researching daily at this point and finding true statistical information that is really steering me away from vaccinations completely. But I still have a fear and a desire to protect my baby and my family, so I dig deeper to find answers about vaccinations. It would be so wonderful to trust and believe a shot can give immunity. I WANT to just believe and go on, but it's so much more complicated.

And I will never really know what choice is best, but I do know that I buy fresh, local, ORGANIC foods for my family, while the majority of people around me do not. Are they right or am I? I don't know, but I've done research and make the best choice for my family according to my research. It just seems very logical, to me, that food not sprayed with harsh chemicals would be healthier than food sprayed with chemicals. It seems very logical that the human body would be better off without being injected with chemicals via vaccinations and naturally fight off any disease it comes in contact with. We used to live by this pear orchard that was sprayed every season 8 to 10 times with various different chemicals. This is standard "normal" farming for pears now days....year after year the trees are sprayed with chemicals so it's in the soil, it's in the tree, it's in the fruit produced. I would MUCH rather get a pear from my grandfather's tree that does not get sprayed with chemicals year after year and survives on sunshine and water alone. Yes, the unsprayed tree may get a disease and not produce as much fruit for a season, but trees that get sprayed can and do still get the same disease even though its sprayed to prevent it. Its a fact of farming. Children who get vaccinated can and do still get the diseases they are vaccinated against. KWIM? Once you start the path of vaccinations, it seems to never end, same with spraying the trees. And farmers regularly spray under orchard trees to keep the weeds from growing under them....terrible chemicals, all because of weeds? Do I want to inject my young children with chemicals just to protect them from chicken pox?? It's a disease with very rare complications. I stay at home, so I won't have any wage loss from caring for my sick kids. KWIM? I don't care about the weeds growing under a pear tree, why does the tree have to be sprayed with TERRIBLE chemicals just because of weeds? And the weeds could be picked by hand or mowed with a lawn mower, but it's hard to get the mower under the trees, so they spray it with deadly, terrible chemicals. And they have to respray, because the chemical wears off and the weeds start to grow again. The chemical solution to things doesn't seem to work for me. I prefer the natural way, so why wouldn't I choose the natural way for my children's health? I just want to make the best, most educated choices for my children's health and I feel I was grossly mislead just "believing" in the CDC, AAP, Local Health Dept., etc. And I don't believe chemicals are the answer to every problem. Or at the least I don't want to expose unnessarily.

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#21 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 02:12 PM
 
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No. I don't. I very much like those graphs. Any graphs you look up look almost identical. That alone is one of my main deciding factors.

I DO know that yes. My body has created antibodies in reponse to vaccines. I've had tests. But a) my chances of being in contact with X disease is SO slim. b) the side effects / risks of the vax are not worth it to me. And c ) even though I have those antibodies that doesn't guarantee I won't contract the disease. Even the drug companies admit that. They're looking for herd immunity. And that's only if you belive what they claim... The antibodies I have might not be for the newer strains, or strong enough at all, etc.

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#22 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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This is just my opinion based on my research and life experience:

Vaccines do not work the way they are designed to work. Humans have experimented with forms of vaccination for thousands of years; Chinese used a form of smallpox vaccination for centuries, and still there was smallpox. It has been quarantine, improved nutrition, irrigation, and sanitation of the last one hundred and fifty years that has improved the rate of morbidity and mortality of infectious and childhood disease outcomes, not government-coerced, artificial immunizations.

Instead of infectious disease, we have chronic disease. For example, instead of chicken pox, we now have adults with shingles.

IF this is preventative medicine, I will take my chances with disease.

Just my carefully researched, educated observation, nothing more, nothing less.

Editted to add that I do not believe in the germ theory of disease. I suspect that science has been stopped from progressing because of this. We are still stuck in the 18th century as far as disease prevention and treatment are concerned.
I agree! I don't believe in the efficacy of vaxes and I believe more diseases are spread with vaxes than would be if they stopped giving them.

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#23 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 07:32 PM
 
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I agree! I don't believe in the efficacy of vaxes and I believe more diseases are spread with vaxes than would be if they stopped giving them.
Could you give an example of a disease that is spread by vaccination?
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#24 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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Wow, Pacifica the pear tree analogy really clicks with me and makes a lot of sense.

I don't vax and have really struggled with whether to vax my son for tetanus. I am not going to. I do believe some vaccines have some efficacy, but also believe that the risks of vaccines do not outweigh the benefits overall.

The only time I feel that vaccines benefits outweigh the risks are in places maybe like 3rd world countries with poor sanitation, lack of being able to seek out decent medical care, poor nutrition and so on. Even then I am somewhat skeptical of vaccines because if we put money into providing all of these things which they lack, then they are no longer vaccine deficient and have the immune system and basic needs to be able to deal with VAD's.
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#25 of 25 Old 11-05-2010, 09:29 PM
 
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Although I am a delayed/selective vaxxer, it is not because I don't believe vaccines work. I am quite satisfied that they do what they were developed to do.
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