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#1 of 42 Old 01-20-2011, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As a first time mama of a four month old baby girl, we have started with some vaccinations even though we have reservations...part of the reason we have started is because she is in daycare for 5 hours a day 5 days a week and I worry about what she's exposed to now that she is in such close contact with other babies.  But the other reason we have started is because I am having trouble finding any decent sources of information to help with our decision making!  Everything I read seems to be wildly biased in one direction or another.  Aside from reading through the threads on this site (some of which are hugely helpful!) any suggestions on where to get started with our research??

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#2 of 42 Old 01-21-2011, 06:51 AM
 
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Here is a list of Resources, including Mothering's resources page. smile.gif

Mi vida loca: full-time WOHM, frugalista, foodie wannabe, 10+ years of TCOYF 

 

R-E-S-P-E-C-T spells BRAND NEW User Agreement!!

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#3 of 42 Old 01-21-2011, 08:02 AM
 
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http://www.nvic.org/ this is a non-biased informative site


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#4 of 42 Old 01-21-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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Mosaic beat me-mothering has some wonderful resources.  I like NVIC as well.  And also here- http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

  Also, remember nutrition is key in keeping healthy.  Especially if you need to use day care. 

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#5 of 42 Old 01-21-2011, 08:02 PM
 
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it is very hard to find unbiased information. i started my research journey by looking at the evidence for and against vaccination claim by claim, and checking every source that i could get my hands on along the way. believe nothing until you've read and understood the research behind the claim yourself!! if you're leaning one way, acknowledge that to yourself, and make yourself look as critically at the evidence that supports your viewpoint as you do at the evidence that goes against it.

 

pubmed and google scholar should be your number one sources of information!!

 

it took me a loooong time to really feel informed by going about it this way, but it was totally worth it.

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#6 of 42 Old 01-22-2011, 06:23 AM
 
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  That's a very good point to remember.  Looking at both sides and the evidence supporting both sides, is the only way to be the most informed, imo.   This way you can't get blind sided-or not as much anyhow, by the opposing side. 

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#7 of 42 Old 01-25-2011, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, all, for sharing!  This is more than enough to get me going. 

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#8 of 42 Old 01-26-2011, 06:36 AM
 
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FWIW OP,

 

My ds started daycare at 3 months old. 9 hrs/day 5 days/week. He is unvaxed. He's almost 3. He's been sick his fair share, but not with anything a vaccine could have prevented.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#9 of 42 Old 01-31-2011, 07:47 AM
 
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"prevented"


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#10 of 42 Old 01-31-2011, 12:57 PM
 
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so true - forgot those quoatation marks :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

"prevented"




If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#11 of 42 Old 01-31-2011, 04:13 PM
 
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LOL


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#12 of 42 Old 02-01-2011, 07:11 AM
 
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Day care and school are hard battles-you crowd enough people, especially kids together, and illness just flies around.  I do believe a lot has to do w/ nutrition though.  Yet, if we aren't there, how do we know the care providers are doing what they should be, for things like hand washing? We don't. We have to do the best we can at home. 

 

  "Prevented" :)  Just saying-there is an outbreak of CP at my friends elementary-and most of the kids are vaxed, so...

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#13 of 42 Old 02-01-2011, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom View Post

  I like NVIC as well.  And also here- http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/



Actually, those are both super-biased against vaccines. It's hard to find a website about vaccines that don't have a position either way. I guess that makes sense, since once you start researching the matter you develop an opinion either way.

 

If you're looking for some sites that are biased for vaccines, for balance, some good ones are www.cdc.gov, www.aap.org, and http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org. The nice thing about those is that multiple thorough scientific studies back up what they're saying. And they reference it.

 

Good luck on making your decisions! It's a lot of information to go through!

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#14 of 42 Old 02-01-2011, 03:25 PM
 
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The CDC website actually made me chose not to vax b/c it states the reactions and the rates of them. 1 in 1000 kids have a seizure from most of the vaxs...that doesn't seem like a good risk to me!

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#15 of 42 Old 02-01-2011, 05:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post


The CDC website actually made me chose not to vax b/c it states the reactions and the rates of them. 1 in 1000 kids have a seizure from most of the vaxs...that doesn't seem like a good risk to me!




 



This sounded off to me, so I checked. Of all the vaccines listed on the CDC website, seizures are only listed as a possible complication for five of them, and never in the "1 in 1000" range you quoted.

(Quoted from www.CDC.gov)
DTaP: Seizure (jerking or staring) (about 1 child out of 14,000)
Japanese encephalitis: Seizures or other serious nervous system problems (between 1 in 50,000 and 1 in a million).
MMR: Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
MMRV: Seizure caused by fever (about 1 child in 1,250 who get MMRV), usually 5-12 days after the first dose. They happen less often when MMR and varicella vaccines are given at the same visit as separate shots (about 1 child in 2,500 who get these two vaccines), and rarely after a 2nd dose of MMRV.
Chicken pox: Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (very rare).

OP: Good luck with your research. Like others have mentioned, be sure you're getting information from good, reputable sources.
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#16 of 42 Old 02-01-2011, 06:55 PM
 
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My research showed more than that. I was looking at CP vax yesterday and CDC site said 1 in 1000 (or less) so...

 

I am not trying to star a big debate over here though.

 

So SOME CAN CAUSE seizures which is good enough for me.


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#17 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 05:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

My research showed more than that. I was looking at CP vax yesterday and CDC site said 1 in 1000 (or less) so...

 

I am not trying to star a big debate over here though.

 

So SOME CAN CAUSE seizures which is good enough for me.

 

Well, the overall risk of having a  febrile seizure at any time during a childhood illness associated with fever is 1 in 25.  Pretty high.  So, if you are really worried about febrile seizures, you probably should vax- then you have a lower chance of getting a febrile illness.
 

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#18 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 06:31 AM
 
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well my DD has had vax reactions ( some serious but thankfully not permanent) and we have seizure disorders in my family so her risks are greater to have a serious reaction, that may cause permanent damage.

 

Anyways it's your decision whether or not to vax. I really really WISH vax did work really well and could not be contaminated and had better, safer, ingredients but it's just not "cost effective" I feel like I would vax my child if they ingredients weren't so dangerous in themselves. I think we can all agree that formaldehyde is not a good option to be injected into our newborn babies or children. To me that is very scary. Also the fact that it's an ongoing experiment is scary. How many vax have had to be changed b/c they were found to be too dangerous after already being injected into millions? How many people have been hurt by this? I just can not trust it and that is how I feel. You don't have to agree with that.

 

I would say I non-vax as oppose to anti-vax, I wish things with vax were different, if they were I think it would change a lot of things.


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#19 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 06:43 AM
 
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Huh, I never thought of insidevaccines as more anti-vax, because they give direct links to the cdc where you can check the info for cross ref.  I don't like the cdc, because to me, they are completely pro vaccine, and give no other refs.

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#20 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 07:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

well my DD has had vax reactions ( some serious but thankfully not permanent) and we have seizure disorders in my family so her risks are greater to have a serious reaction, that may cause permanent damage.

 

Anyways it's your decision whether or not to vax. I really really WISH vax did work really well and could not be contaminated and had better, safer, ingredients but it's just not "cost effective" I feel like I would vax my child if they ingredients weren't so dangerous in themselves. I think we can all agree that formaldehyde is not a good option to be injected into our newborn babies or children. To me that is very scary. Also the fact that it's an ongoing experiment is scary. How many vax have had to be changed b/c they were found to be too dangerous after already being injected into millions? How many people have been hurt by this? I just can not trust it and that is how I feel. You don't have to agree with that.

 

I would say I non-vax as oppose to anti-vax, I wish things with vax were different, if they were I think it would change a lot of things.


 

OK, let's look at formaldehyde.  Formaldehyde is present in all people- it is a normal product of our metabolism.  Normal blood concentrations are 2.47 mg/L.  That means that an average 2month old infant will have about 1.2 mg of formaldehyde present in their body at any given time.  Water also has formaldehyde in it.  The EPA safe concentration recommendations for children are 5 mg/L.  If a child drinks 2 cups of water a day, that's 2.5 mg of formaldehyde ingested.  

 

A flu shot has less than 100 mcg (that's micrograms, or 0.1 mg).  So, draw your own conclusion about the safety of the amount of formaldehyde in vaccines compared to the water that your child is drinking or the amount of formaldehyde they are making on their own.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

My research showed more than that. I was looking at CP vax yesterday and CDC site said 1 in 1000 (or less) so...

 

 Link?

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#22 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 11:37 AM
 
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http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/vac-faqs-gen.htm

 

it is under

 

What problems can occur after the chicken pox vaccine?


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#23 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 01:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom View Post
  "Prevented" :)  Just saying-there is an outbreak of CP at my friends elementary-and most of the kids are vaxed, so...


Why is this surprising?  Or evidence that the vaccine doesn't actually prevent any chicken pox cases?  I have never seen anyone claim that the chicken pox vaccine was 100% effective in preventing chicken pox in every child.  The CDC page someone else linked says it is 90% effective in preventing the child from getting chicken pox but that kids who do get it after the vaccine generally have a much milder case of it than is typical of non-vaccinate kids, so it is nearly 100% effective in preventing serious cases of chicken pox.  

 

So, for a school of say 300 kids, if it was typical of the US in having about an 85% who are either vaccinated or immune by already having chicken pox (don't use that as an official number, just one I googled and am going with since this is just an example and it sounds reasonable) , that would be 255 kids vaccinated and 45 not.  If of those 255, 10% could still get chicken pox, that's another 25-ish kids, so 70 kids total in the school who are susceptible to chicken pox.  Plenty for an outbreak with chicken pox as easy to get as it is (and note that it is most contagious just before the kids break out in spots, so when they would still be in school.. by the time spots have appeared and chicken pox parties can be arranged, they are over the easiest time to transmit it).  

 

But still, 230 of those kids will not get chicken pox.  Before the vaccine they would have either then or in the next outbreak or the one after that if they hadn't already.  I think there were some pox parties around back when I was a kid from people who wanted to make sure they got it over with at a time when it was not too inconvenient for kids to be sick, but nearly every one just got it sooner or later even without  pox party.  I'm sure there certainly was no need to take drastic measures like driving hours to have kids exposed or mailing licked lollipops around the country!

 

Whether or not you believe that CP vaccine is safe or  a worse risk or less beneficial   than natural CP so not worth it, it is pretty clear that chicken rates/hospitalizations/deaths have decreased by quite a bit since the introduction of the vaccine and also that kids who are vaccinated are much less likely to get chicken pox than kids who are not.  While it should be understood that the vaccine does not prevent all cases, it certainly prevents a lot of them, so there is no need for quotation marks around the word prevent

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#24 of 42 Old 02-02-2011, 03:27 PM
 
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Sosureal- You can  check the package insert for the vaccines, and the side effects are listed per vaccine. 

 

 

  Quotations are just a way to distinguish :)  Many people believe that vaccines are 100% effective at Preventing the disease, so.....

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#25 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 05:19 AM
 
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OP.

 

There is no source that is not biased. Anyone claiming to be free of bias is not being honest IMO.

 

That said, if you have the time, read up the references for any claim being made - whatever the claim. If someone makes a claim, it is reasonable to ask them to substantiate it. And both sides use references that do not always support their claims - making it a very tedious job sorting through what is reliable and what is not.

 

I personally found insidevaccines, sciencebased medicine and the cdc to be my best sources of information. With an odd peek into orac. Soon I was able to sift through the rhetoric and feel out the issues and weigh the arguments presented by each 'side'. I like inside vaccines as they reference their articles and while the bias is towards questioning vaccines, they do not make recommendations and leave the reader free to choose. Any mocking or belittling just puts me off. Whoever is doing it. The cdc also is a good place to start. Especially comparing the parent pages to the pink book.

 

On the question of formaldehyde - it's prevalence in the human body does not mean that it is a good idea to inject it. I know that it is there to essentially make the vaccines safer, but that does not mean that it is safe to inject it. It has been a while since I was looking into all of this. Does anyone have an evidence that it is safe to inject? And at what point the dose is negligible?


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#26 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 06:47 AM
 
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http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/FO/formaldehyde.html

 

Causes burns. Very toxic by inhalation, ingestion and through skin absorption. Readily absorbed through skin. Probable human carcinogen. Mutagen. May cause damage to kidneys. May cause allergic reactions. May cause sensitisation. May cause heritable genetic damage. Lachrymator at levels from less than 20 ppm upwards. Very destructive of mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract, eyes and skin.

 

but injecting it must be ok - since it's naturally ocurring in the body

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#27 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/05/toxin-gambit-part-1-formaldehyde.html

 

lots of resources there.

 

love this part:

 

 

Quote:
The actual amount in vaccines is minuscule, even when considering an infant that receives the full CDC schedule. If you look at this table, it contains a list of vaccines and their final formaldehyde content. Not included in this table is Pentacel which contains 0.005mg of formaldehyde. If all vaccines are given as per the CDC recommendation and separately, the most a 2 month old infant would receive is 0.1204 mg of formaldehyde or 120.4 mcg. Going back to what normal formaldehyde levels for a 5kg, 2-month old infant are 1.1-1.2 mg or 0.22-0.24mg/kg so the total formaldehyde exposure from vaccines would raise that to 1.22-1.32 mg or raises the baseline level by less than 1 grain of sand/35 Hummers. Put another way, the amount contained within a vaccine is more than 50 times less than what is in a pear.
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#28 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 07:26 AM
 
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It's already in the blood and the injection does not go into the blood, as has been argued many times. they do address sources of formeldahyde in the links in that blog I gave, so maybe that can shed some light on the issue as well.

 

ETA: i would esp recommend the one on cancer because it talks about how Formeldahyde does not seem to affect other organs even if higher levels reach them besides the ones they are concentrating on (mouth, esphagus, lungs- but it seems only the nose and connecting areas may result in cancer). they talk about why this is- rapid local metabolization. and remember, these inhalation levels are magnitudes upon magnitudes higher than what is in vaccines.

 

ETA2: also, check out the stats on how long it lasts in water...not long. this is probably another reason even high amounts of inhaled do not affect beyond the nose, kwim?

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#29 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom View Post
  "Prevented" :)  Just saying-there is an outbreak of CP at my friends elementary-and most of the kids are vaxed, so...


Probably because most states only require 1 dose of the varicella vaccine, despite the fact that it has already been established that 1 dose is not adequately prevent breakthrough infections.



 

 

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#30 of 42 Old 02-03-2011, 11:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/FO/formaldehyde.html

 

Causes burns. Very toxic by inhalation, ingestion and through skin absorption. Readily absorbed through skin. Probable human carcinogen. Mutagen. May cause damage to kidneys. May cause allergic reactions. May cause sensitisation. May cause heritable genetic damage. Lachrymator at levels from less than 20 ppm upwards. Very destructive of mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract, eyes and skin.

 

but injecting it must be ok - since it's naturally ocurring in the body

 

 

Burns.  Cancer. DNA cross-linking.  Permanent vision loss.  All caused by...too much sunlight.

 

Nausea.  Vomiting.  Seizure.  Premature loss of bone growth in children. Desquamation of the skin. Osteoporosis.  Birth defects.  Hair loss.  All caused by...too much Vitamin A.

 

Nausea.  Vomiting.  Seizure.  Coma.  Central pontine myelinolysis.  All caused by...too much water.

 

My point?  The dose makes the poison.  Many, many things are toxic in a high amount.  Carriebft and I have given some hard numbers about what are safe and unsafe levels of formaldehyde.  You still claim that it is unsafe.  Do you have any data to back this up?
 

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