How getting measles this week has made this non-vaxer think hard. - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#91 of 104 Old 08-08-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanna View Post

@ Marnica
 


It's been a while since tetanus vaxinations started and as far as I've been able to tell, so far, there have been no "unforeseen and undesirable consequences" to that. There HAS been a noticeable decline of people dying from tetanus though, which I, personally, am very happy about.

You've missed my point and tetanus is a poor example of what I was trying to illustrate in terms of mother nature considering that it is not a contagious disease. What do you make of the fact that there was a noticeable decline in tetanus before the vaccine was even used?

 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#92 of 104 Old 08-08-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Tetanus is a disease that is vaccinated for.

It seems that you consider vaccination for Tetanus "good" and any other (contagious) disease "bad"? What's your reasoning behind considering vaccination for Tetanus different from other vaccinations?

 

As for the decline of tetanus before vaccination, I'd guess it's due to

 

- umbilical cords not being cut with unsterelized instruments anymore

- people having a better understanding of the pathomechanisms causing tetanus, resulting in preventative measures like increased sanitation and better wound cleaning.

- people spending less time digging in the dirt with their hands, because access to agricultural machines and working gloves became greater.

- fertilizer other than manure becoming available


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#93 of 104 Old 08-11-2011, 09:50 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I don't consider the tetanus vaccine good at all. It has nothing to do with good vs bad either. Vaccines can cause unforseen problems - that was my point. Serotype replacement is an example of this.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanna View Post

Tetanus is a disease that is vaccinated for.

It seems that you consider vaccination for Tetanus "good" and any other (contagious) disease "bad"? What's your reasoning behind considering vaccination for Tetanus different from other vaccinations?

 

As for the decline of tetanus before vaccination, I'd guess it's due to

 

- umbilical cords not being cut with unsterelized instruments anymore

- people having a better understanding of the pathomechanisms causing tetanus, resulting in preventative measures like increased sanitation and better wound cleaning.

- people spending less time digging in the dirt with their hands, because access to agricultural machines and working gloves became greater.

- fertilizer other than manure becoming available



 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#94 of 104 Old 08-11-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

I don't consider the tetanus vaccine good at all. It has nothing to do with good vs bad either. Vaccines can cause unforseen problems - that was my point. Serotype replacement is an example of this.

 

 

Looking for moree information to understand you better:

 

Why don't you consider the tetanus vaccine good?

What is serotype replacement?
 

 


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#95 of 104 Old 08-11-2011, 12:19 PM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanna View Post



 

Looking for moree information to understand you better:

 

Why don't you consider the tetanus vaccine good?

What is serotype replacement?
 

 


I generally don't approve of any vaccines which is why I have chosen not to vaccinate my child. Specifically I object to the ingredients of the DT/DTaP and the tetanus toxoid as well. I think the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits considering tetanus is very rare and if my son were ever to sustain an injury where it was of REAL concern, I would entertain the TIG.

 

Serotype replacement  is when man wipes out a bug/bacteria with vaccines/drugs, increasing the likelihood of another, often more deadly bug/bacteria of stepping in and filling the void. Solving 1 problem often creates a more serious one. Nature abhors a vacuum
 

 


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#96 of 104 Old 08-22-2011, 12:13 PM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

member234098 is offline  
#97 of 104 Old 08-22-2011, 03:47 PM
 
Kanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

Anecdotal evidence.  Nonvaxers are always accused of this. Not scientific.  You may enjoy looking up Dr. Robert Svoboda and what he says about playing in the dirt.  A healthy person builds immunity to his own dirt.

 

 

Uhm, no?

You didn't ask for statistics.

You asked if I was only quoting stuff others had told me or if I'd actually been to Africa and seen Tetanus, and the answer was YES, I have. And not only in Africa.

Asking me to provide information about my personal experience with something and then complaining about it when I do seems...strange...to me.

 

The kid I saw in Africa was, apart from the fact that it was dying, an otherwise quite healthy kid, thank you very much.

 

Somehow a lot of people seem to assume that anyone living in Africa (or any other not-first world country, really) is malnourished and of ill health, and sorry that's just a silly prejudice. There's lots of people in Africa that are well-nourished and healthy...but don't have access to our first-world standard of medical care.

 

And if playing in the dirt builds immunity (which the dying kid had been doing, LOTS)....and if it was healthy and well-nourished too, then why, according to your logic, did she still die of tetanus?

 

As for the "first world" lady I met? She was healthy and well-nourished too, and, being an avid gardener, she too spent "lots of time playing in the dirt". According to your logic, she shouldn't have had an adverse event while coming into contact with tetanus either....but she did.

 

I looked up Dr. Svoboda and he seems like a nice guy. But apart from the massages, which are very relaxing, I'm not that much into Ayurveda.

 

Also, while doctor Svoboda might find that a bit of dirt goes a long way to train the immune-system (which I actually agree on ^_~), I'm not sure if he'd agree with you that "playing in the dirt" is something that'd prevent tetanus.....

 

 

Since you seem to be hot for some studies and statistics, here, have some:

 

Rapid drop of neonatal tetanus amongst the Maasai after stopping them from packing umilical cords with cow dung

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673601057877

 

Tetanus study of over 8000 cases in Bombay, India.

 

http://www.indianjmedsci.org/article.asp?issn=0019-5359;year=1999;volume=53;issue=9;spage=393;epage=401;aulast=Patel

 

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/786414-overview


fly-by-nursing1.giffamilybed1.gifteapot2.GIFfemalesling.GIFfuzmalesling.giflearning.gifgeek.gif

Kanna is offline  
#98 of 104 Old 08-27-2011, 06:11 PM
 
inchwormz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 841
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

This has been a really interesting thread. I have to say I'm surprised the chicken pox/shingles connection hasn't really been discussed. As I sit here in bed at age 33 with the shingles, I'm also spending my days revisiting our vax decision. I'm happy to say we're sticking to the course of non-vaxing, but I'm also incredibly worried for the future as natural immunity disappears. :(

 

I have to wonder if part of the reason I am dealing with this horribly painful virus today isn't because of the pox vaccine and my inability to be exposed to the virus over the years to increase my resistance. I had the pox at age 6/7 and it was nothing compared to what I'm going through now. But chicken pox is no where to be found over the last few years. This saddens me and I worry for my two girls and what they will have to deal with when they are older. I am aware of the numerous deaths that may be prevented from vaxing. But I'm also well aware of how our immune system works and I trust my body's ability to heal. I believe vaccines have their place in the world, but they are not a one-size fits all solution. I certainly don't wish shingles on anyone, but dealing with this has definitely given me a moment to pause and re-evaluate where we stand.

 

Oh yes, I know. Big pharm already has chicken pox figured out with their shingles vax. But we won't be doing that one, either. ;)

Bokonon likes this.

Tamara , WAHM to Rayne (03/05) and Aurora (05/08).
inchwormz is offline  
#99 of 104 Old 08-27-2011, 08:18 PM
 
shiningpearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: in the shadows
Posts: 360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Hopefully your girls get the pox from your shingles.  My sister had that.


Done with diapers!!

shiningpearl is offline  
#100 of 104 Old 01-09-2012, 05:59 PM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

member234098 is offline  
#101 of 104 Old 01-10-2012, 05:21 AM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkytulip View Post


Yes, but you would have to be around a pediatric population, I would think, to make that even remotely likely. I don't believe that is this case here. I think shedding occurs more often in the stool so someone changing diapers at daycare, for example, without proper hygiene is a realistic scenario.



Well, we are ALL around pediatric populations, and the shedding occurs in saliva. Babies and toddlers constantly have their fingers in their mouths, so anything they touch with their hands can spread the virus.

 

All we have to do is go to the grocery store and put our hands on the shopping cart.

Taximom5 is offline  
#102 of 104 Old 01-10-2012, 05:32 AM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)

I am also an RFV (Reformed Former Vaccinator) who no longer vaccinates.  However, I have to agree with the OP on the topic of adult measles infection:  most of the childhood diseases like mumps, measles, and chicken pox, ARE more severe for adults--far more severe.

 

I would consider vaccination of an adult for this reason--but I'm not necessarily convinced (yet).  

Are there any studies as to WHY these diseases are more severe in adults?  Could it be related to our (lousy) diets, or to widespread vitamin deficiencies?  We know that children who are vitamin-A deficient are far more likely to have severe complications from measles.  Are adults vitamin A deficient?  And we know that more people are vitamin D-deficient than not, thanks to sunscreen.

 

Children in developed countries are actually less likely to be vitamin-deficient than adults, especially children who had been breastfed.

 

All this doesn't prove anything--but it does raise interesting questions that perhaps should be considered before vaccinating.  Even adults can and do have severe, even fatal reactions to vaccines.

Taximom5 is offline  
#103 of 104 Old 01-10-2012, 05:03 PM
 
an_domhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


When you raise awareness to a specific condition, there are more reports of that condition.  There is no reason to believe they weren't always there before, just either misdiagnosed.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post

and if it was simply just proper hygiene, why do we see more VPDs showing up lately? are people suddenly living in filthy conditions? why is whooping cough back in california? is it because everyone there is skipping their veggies and not washing hands?



 

an_domhan is offline  
#104 of 104 Old 01-10-2012, 05:39 PM
 
an_domhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)



While I can appreciate your use of math to illustrate this point, I get hung up on a few things.  With respect to my bolding in your statements below, how do you know that Sarah's vaccination status did not prevent her from not presenting correctly to measles and therefore she exposes Amy anyway while they're playing all afternoon?  Just because a person does not exhibit symptoms to measles (insert disease of choice, really) doesn't mean they weren't exposed, and doesn't mean they aren't capable of spreading measles (insert disease of choice, really).  Being asymptomatic after disease exposure due one's vaccination status seems to not bother those insistent upon their widespread use as the best measure of disease prevention.

 

I'm sorry, but I ignored your 1 in 400 versus 1 in 20 example - too many variables to consider the scenario meaningful... this is only my opinion of course.

 

Finally, I don't think you've illustrated why a nonvaccinated person puts a vaccinated person at risk.  You've simply granted immunity (pun intended) to those with a postive vaccination status while ignoring the fact that any person can spread disease.  Some spread it a lot better than others... those who exhibit classic symptoms to disease causing agents are far more likely to be diagnosed than those not presenting correctly.

 

What if the little boy that Sarah played with had been vaccinated recently and he had been feeling okay, but during their time playing he started coughing and wiping his nose on his shirt (and a few other things that little boys like to do) and later that night he runs a fever and continues to show cold symptoms.  Since he was exhibiting symptoms during their play time, by symptomalogy/diagnostic definitions alone - you would have to consider him contagious.  Of course his parents called back to the peds office and they asked that they bring him in for some follow up testing that including nasal and throat swabs to test for measles contagion. 

 

Exactly.  This doesn't happen (a perfect scenario in which to purport that people are not asymptomatic after measles vaccination... if you don't look, you don't find) and instead, the peds office just tells them it's a normal side effect from the vaccine and onward we go.  On the contrary, you've shown me that it is probably best for people to be around unvaccinated people/kids because when they get sick from disease causing agents for which vaccines exist, they show symptoms and aren't playing hide and seek thinking they have a cold.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post

 

Another example: Let's say there are two best friends Sarah and Amy.  Amy was vaccinated, but, though they don't know it, she was one of the 1 in 20 or so who don't become immune from the measles vaccine.  

 

One day, Sarah meets a boy at the playground and ends up hiding with him in a small space during a game of hide and seek.  She doesn't know his name, and when her parents hear about a local case of measles a couple days later, they have no idea that their daughter was right up in his face during the period he was most contagious.  If Sarah were not vaccinated, then she would be coming down with measles, and would then pass it on to Amy when they girls spent an entire afternoon playing in Amy's room right when Sarah was most contagious.  But thankfully, Sarah was vaccinated, and the vaccine worked, so Amy is never even exposed, and thus she was protected by Sarahs vaccine rather than her own failed one. 

 

 

Of course, the 1 in 400 chance will still happen from time to time, but still, 1 in 20 chance with only Amy's own vaccine vs. a 1 in 400 chance with both Sarah's and Amy's vaccines to protect Amy from getting measles in this particular instance.  Do you see why a parent would see an child who is not vaccinated as a greater risk than one who is?



 

an_domhan is offline  
Reply

Tags
Vaccinations , Mmr , Measles , Live Virus , Shed

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off