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#1 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No really, honestly. How can we trust that vaccines are safe?

 

If somebody is dishonest with me, I really cannot trust anything else they say. So, I'm honestly curious as to why so many people trust their lives, and their children's lives, to the recommendations of "XYZ" organization. If the organization has been dishonest in the past, why do we continue to trust them with our future?

 

Here is one example.....the FDA's and ADA's position on amalgam (mercury) fillings. Here is a link from Mercola's site. If you don't like Mercola, please feel free to find your own source. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/01/28/scientists-urge-fda-to-stop-amalgam-use-in-children-pregnant-women-and-hypersensitive.aspx

 

Or, let's be truthful here.....fluoridated water is crap! Why is our water fluoridated, by recommendation of the FDA, CDC, ADA, etc. If you do any research on fluoride, you will see what I mean. Here is one site I pulled up http://www.fluoridealert.org/

 

So please, can we have an open discussion about this? Why do the organizations set up to protect us continue to let us down? And if you agree they are not always right, well why do you trust them on the subject of vaccines? I am not trying to be a jerk here; I really do want to know. I'm just a concerned mom! I honestly believe there is evidence of harm, and whether I'm right or wrong, my intentions are true.

Try to step outside your comfort zone and look at these issues.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#2 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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No idea. I don't trust any of them. It's all a bunch of relative truth. That goes for the vast majority of "alternative" stuff out there too. JMO.


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#3 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 10:38 AM
 
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Just a reminder that the conversation needs to stay on the topic of vaccines in order to stay in the Vaccination forum. Discussions of amalgam fillings and fluoridated water belong best in Health and Healing/Dental health as appropriate.

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#4 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 11:15 AM
 
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I don't think that we can trust that they're safe.  Talk to someone who does drug manufacturing plant inspections and they'll tell you horror stories of what goes on there (one of  my husband's friends is an inspector who goes to china and other places to inspect the manufacturing and he wasn't the least bit upset about the fact that we don't vaccinate and he gave us more information to confirm our fears). 

 

Look at the conflicts of interest in the industry.  Pharmaceuticals pay the CDC and all of the medical associations.  These are people we're supposed to be able to trust.  The CDC should be working in OUR best interests, but they're not.  Merck just hired the ex-head of the cdc to be the head of their manufacturing department.  That's crazy!   Now with companies being allowed to give to political candidates, I'm really worried about how this will play out at our expense.  I feel like a product to be bought and sold by politicians at their whim for their own benefit without my knowledge or consent.

 

Pharmaceuticals pay professors and help write text-books for our future doctors.  This shouldn't be happening.

 

I don't for a minute doubt that vaccines work.  That's not the issue for me at all.  I think they're unsafe and the reason why they're unsafe is because of all of the conflicts of interest that keep them highly profitable for pharmaceuticals, governing agencies and associations, professors and medical schools and politicians.  I'd love to feel like I could give my child a vaccine and that all would be well and he'd be healthy and immune to diseases.  Who wouldn't? 

 

You know, your doctor wants you to sign a waiver either way...vaccinate or don't, it's all on you as the parent to accept the responsibility.  We often get mad at our doctors for asking for us to sign the "bad mommy" form, but if you were to vaccinate, you'd be given another form just as bad that makes sure you know that bad reactions and even death are a possibility when you give this vaccine.

 

I just got a notice in the mail today that my 2yo is due for 8 separate vaccines today, so I'm a little hyper-agitated about the subject today.  Sorry for the rant. 

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#5 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I understand, and I'll try to stay on the topic of vaccines. I was just using fluoride and mercury as examples. I would love to continue a discussion about them in Health and Healing.


 


Well put, Chaoticzenmom!


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#6 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 11:35 AM
 
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I think it is (1) because we just can't believe that smart educated people and our government wouldn't REALLY have our best interests at heart, and (2) because if big companies or government admitted they were wrong, lawsuits would be everywhere, and (3) top-dollar marketing.

 

(1)

For example, I read Henci Goer's book on childbirth, and I was mad.  I just couldn't believe that a highly educated female OB would lie to me, or do something that wouldn't really help me and only benefit her.  I skipped the c-section chapter in all other books, because I have always said these wide hips were made for birthing!  Well, here I am, one traumatic unnecessary c-section and two homebirths later.

 

It is really scary to believe that money is at the heart of medical decisions, so most of us have a hard time believeing it. (until we learn the hard way, due to bad vax interactions or unnecessary medical treatments or bogus insurance issues)

 

(2)

Just think what would happen to all of those cities that put the flouride waste in their drinking water if the government admitted it caused cancer. Bankrupt cities and gov't, lawsuits galore.

 

(3)

Big pharma is really good at making commercials that make people feel scared and guilty if they don't get a vaccine.  Think of the Pertussis onslought lately.  You can't go to the dr. or watch TV without being told you are a bad parent because you will give your infant WC!.  They also attack natural doctors and ideas with bogus internet sites like quackwatch and others.

 

Personally, I don't trust "them" anymore.  But it is hard to go against the mainstream.  Very difficult.

 

My DH asks "why do you always have to go against the grain?".  After my first traumatic birth, I became a homebirther.  However - that was overwhelming enough to research and convince him.  I didn't have time to research vaxes, and so my kids were vaxed up until 1.5 years ago.  My most recent birth was a girl, but I would have had a fight on my hands with the "I don't want to circ him even though his dad and bro are circed" discussion.  I now go to a chiropractor, and use Tom's non-fluoride toothpaste.

 

Thank Goddess for MDC, where other people understand why we don't blindly trust "them" anymore!! 

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#7 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 01:28 PM
 
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I don't trust any of the governement agencies that tell me I should be vaccinating my child and that it is safe - look at their track records.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#8 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 04:44 PM
 
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I understand, and I'll try to stay on the topic of vaccines. I was just using fluoride and mercury [amalgam fillings] as examples.

 

Of what?

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#9 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is my belief that the FDA, ADA, AMA, CDC, etc. knows all about these dangerous chemicals, yet still promote them as if they are good for us.

                                                                 However--     *They are not good for us.*

 

So, when the agencies are in support of dangerous chemicals in one area of our lives, it is only logical (to me) that they support the dangerous chemicals in vaccines. I feel I cannot trust them with simple health matters, like exposure to fluoride, mercury, aspartame, all the "bad" drugs that have been recalled much too late, and the list goes on and on. Otto, you are so smart! It surprises me that you seem to defend the government, despite the evidence that the chemicals they put in our food, water, and medicine are often very harmful. And they seem to know it, but it takes a lot of uprising before they reluctantly change policy. (Cigarettes anyone, lol? They used to be "good" for us, right?!)

Here's a little brain-teaser: how does fluoride react with the aluminum in vaccines? How much of a fluoride dose do you get from 8oz of tap water? You MUST look into this stuff. It is going in to your body.

 

In my opinion, the government agencies have lost credibility by supporting fluoride, mercury, and the rest. I can't trust them with vaccine safety either.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#10 of 64 Old 01-28-2011, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

 

It surprises me that you seem to defend the government, despite the evidence that the chemicals they put in our food, water, and medicine are often very harmful.


I suppose I'm viewing the original post from a chicken-or-egg standpoint. Clearly, people are going to arrive at their conclusions from within some sort of interpretive framework (some are building monuments, others jotting down notes). My nagging is about whether the framework is preceding the subject here.

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#11 of 64 Old 01-29-2011, 05:10 AM
 
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If you look at all the drugs that have been pulled off the market after they were deemed safe by the FDA and pharma 'studies'  I find it difficult to believe that they have our best interests at heart.    They have gone so far as to have the government shield them from lawsuits over vaccines.  They don't have the same protection on all of their other drugs.  Vaccines are the sacred cow.  The pieces just don't fit. 

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#12 of 64 Old 01-29-2011, 05:49 AM
 
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I think trust is too umbrella a word, if that makes sense. Trust to a point and then look into things yourself the best you can...I guess that is how I deal with medications and vaccination. Does it mean I 100% trust the FDA or physician organizations if I support a family member choosing chemotherapy for her breast cancer? No, I think there is just too many little things to consider to blanket things like this. I think things like second opinions, asking for source material, looking for alternatives, etc all help me make medical decisions for our family in a world where nothing is 100% certain.


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#13 of 64 Old 01-29-2011, 06:14 AM
 
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I would also say that I have to keep in mind that these organizations generally are looking at "the whole"-- they want to advance "public" health, kwim? Sometimes I need to personalize things to my own family, our own situation.

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#14 of 64 Old 01-29-2011, 08:49 AM
 
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True, nothing is risk-free, but there could be many more safeguards for the vaccines.  Just eliminating the conflicts of interest would go a long way towards building trust of vaccines.  I want to know that a vaccine is truly needed, not just pushed on me because the company that made it paid the cdc to push it on me.  I want to know that the place where it was made is clean and that there is virtually no risk of it being contaminated.  I want a real study of the safety of the other ingredients in vaccines. 

 

I really don't care what a parent does, as long as they're going what they truly think is right.  I'd never want a parent to not vaccinate because I don't think it's safe.  Who am I to make that decision for anyone else?  It's the same with not vaccinating.  I'm not going to vaccinate because someone else thinks it's safe, if that's not how I feel about them. 


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I trust science.  Of course, we are learning new things all of the time, and sometimes that means that recommendations change.  And public regulatory agencies have to balance new evidence against the cost of changing recommendations, so often they will wait until they have a very strong case for a change.  Sometimes public agencies make mistakes, but IMO when that happens they eventually realize it and fix it.  I have not seen evidence that agencies have been dishonest, but of course individual people can be dishonest. 

 

For me what that means is that I follow the science.  I'm not going to blindly follow agency recommendations, but I'm going to take them as a starting point, research actual science to see if it seems to support what they say, and then make my own judgment. 

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#16 of 64 Old 01-29-2011, 03:11 PM
 
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I have removed several posts which were either not consistent with our forum guidelines or which were responses to such posts. Please remain on-topic regarding vaccines and post with both the UA and forum guidelines in mind. Any further issues will result in either closure or removal of the thread.

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#17 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 06:25 AM
 
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I do not trust them.  There are levels of distrust.

 

At a basic level, I do not trust my doctor (whom I actually like) to be able to answer my questions.  I have tried, and with numerous doctors and nurses.  One question is always "what is the chance my child will get xyz and have a severe reaction to it" versus "what are the chances my child will have a severe reaction to the vaccine".  They can never answer, never even know where to send me for answers (they usually refer me to the "Canadian Pediatric Association" website -which is quite pro vax).  Really, if you cannot answer my questions about vaxes, why I am going to allow you to inject something into me or my child?

 

I do not trust whomever is responsible for monitorring vaccines in Canada - probably the government.  

 

When my son was a baby they knew DTaP was safer than DPT - but they were still using DPT (probably because it was cheaper or they had stock to get rid ).  Ditto for Thimerosol  - they removed it, but still allowed it in old stock.  WTF?  It is either safe or it isn't.  

 

There are 3 core reasons I do not vaccinate  - lack of trust is one of them.

 

Edited to add:  I do not think the government or doctors are bad people.  Indeed I think they want what is best for the population as a whole.  That is their goal - public health.  My concerns are for my own family which is a different thing than public health.  This is not selfish - it is our mandate as parents to look after our children.

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#18 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 08:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

Edited to add:  I do not think the government or doctors are bad people.  Indeed I think they want what is best for the population as a whole.  That is their goal - public health.  My concerns are for my own family which is a different thing than public health.  This is not selfish - it is our mandate as parents to look after our children.

Yeah, I'll admit that one reason I don't vax is because I'm worried that my children be the "cost" in the Cost vs. Benefit analysis that these people have to come up with to justify the vaccine reactions.  I'm not one of those people that thinks that things don't happen to me.  After a few things that have happened in my life to me that don't usually happen to the majority of people, I usually think of "other people" as "me or someone I love." 
 

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#19 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 11:25 AM
 
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I guess the opposite question could be asked as well.

 

I personally do not feel I have been lied to about vaccinations.  I also don't see any particular reason I should trust Mercola over anyone else.  So...

 

I know there are risks to vaccines, and I know that there is limited effectiveness.  I know there are risks to having the diseases.  And I know that there are risks to alternative medicine and limited effectiveness there too.  Weighing out all of those things, having researched from sources I do trust, the risk vs benefit thing comes out in favor of vaccines for me and my children.  I understand why and how other families come to other conclusions, but it does get a little irksome being pigeonholed as an dummy or a blind follower.  eyesroll.gif

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#20 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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I have friends who are way smarter than me who vaccinate their children.  I wonder how they can be so trusting of the vaccines, but I do not for a minute question their intelligence or consider them to be naive.  I have lots of intelligent friends who do not vaccinate as well and I don't think Mercola had anything to do with it.


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#21 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 02:22 PM
 
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.... having researched from sources I do trust, the risk vs benefit thing comes out in favor of vaccines for me and my children.  I understand why and how other families come to other conclusions, but it does get a little irksome being pigeonholed as an dummy or a blind follower.  eyesroll.gif



The fact that you did research and made an educated decision means you are NOT a blind follower.  The fact that vaccines make sense for certain families is not what makes people "blind followers".

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  I have not seen evidence that agencies have been dishonest, but of course individual people can be dishonest. 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post

 

 

I personally do not feel I have been lied to about vaccinations. .

 


I do not feel I have been lied to about vaccines - and yet I still do not trust in vaccines.

 

There can be numerous reasons for lack of trust - dishonesty or lying is only one of them.

 

In my case I distrust them because the medical profession has not been able to answer questions they should be able to answer, and because I know they make decisions with cost/public health in mind.  The "public health" part one can see (even if it is not overly relevant to me as a parent) the cost factor is unacceptable.

 

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#23 of 64 Old 01-31-2011, 04:43 PM
 
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In my case I distrust them because the medical profession has not been able to answer questions they should be able to answer, and because I know they make decisions with cost/public health in mind.  The "public health" part one can see (even if it is not overly relevant to me as a parent) the cost factor is unacceptable.

 


I guess I don't see it as a primary care provider's job to be able to answer detailed questions about the risk of complications from diseases, especially those that are now being prevented with vaccinations.  I wouldn't expect any doctor to be able to quote exact statistical risks for or against any medication he or she was prescribing, unless that doctor was a super-sub-specialist who only dealt with a handful of meds.  I'd just look that information up if I felt I needed to have it.

 

As for a cost/benefit analysis, I know that it seems offensive and callous to put a price on a person's life, but it happens all the time.  We all make these decisions ourselves on a daily basis.  For example, I don't buy a new car, because even though I know that they are safer, I don't have the money.  Sometimes I buy conventional foods because their organic counterparts are just too expensive.  Et cetera.

 

So, yeah, I can understand the FDA (or its Canadian counterpart) deciding that, even though they know that Mercury can be dangerous, they will allow a small amount of it in some vaccines, because the cost of preservative-free vaccines is higher.  That makes sense to me.  Other than that issue, I think the real analysis that is being performed is a question of whether we are safer, individually and as a community, with vaccinations or without.

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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 


I guess I don't see it as a primary care provider's job to be able to answer detailed questions about the risk of complications from diseases, especially those that are now being prevented with vaccinations.  I wouldn't expect any doctor to be able to quote exact statistical risks for or against any medication he or she was prescribing, unless that doctor was a super-sub-specialist who only dealt with a handful of meds.  I'd just look that information up if I felt I needed to have it.

 

The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

 

That being said, I doubt doctors feel the need to do this, unless they have an interest in vaccine.  Most people do vaccinate - so obviously doctors do not have to be highly informed on the topic to achieve high vaccine compliance rates.

 

There are some people who are able to do the research on vaxes themselves - but honestly I found real, unbiased info very difficult to come by.  I do look to doctors for information and they were not able to supply.  

 

 

 

As for a cost/benefit analysis, I know that it seems offensive and callous to put a price on a person's life, but it happens all the time.  We all make these decisions ourselves on a daily basis.  For example, I don't buy a new car, because even though I know that they are safer, I don't have the money.  Sometimes I buy conventional foods because their organic counterparts are just too expensive.  Et cetera.

 

 

I do hear what you are saying.  I am more comfortable making safety decisions for myself though, than having them foisted on me.   I might choose to skip the organics, but I am not Ok with the government deciding to choose the DTP over the DTaP for me.  

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#25 of 64 Old 02-01-2011, 07:21 AM
 
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Quote:

The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

It is a rather complicated question though, because the medical community has the benefit of decades upon decades with the diseases to be able to ballpark the rate of complications. However, when it comes to the vaccines, serious reactions are rare enough that it would be very difficult to even come up with a figure. I do believe that more should be done with tracking vaccine reactions, but its not something the neighborhood pediatrician has control over; all they can do is share what is known from clinical trials.



 

 

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#26 of 64 Old 02-01-2011, 07:46 AM
 
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The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

It is a rather complicated question though, because the medical community has the benefit of decades upon decades with the diseases to be able to ballpark the rate of complications. However, when it comes to the vaccines, serious reactions are rare enough that it would be very difficult to even come up with a figure. I do believe that more should be done with tracking vaccine reactions, but its not something the neighborhood pediatrician has control over; all they can do is share what is known from clinical trials.

None-the-less, it is one I need answered if I am to inject a healthy infant with a substance.

 

Maybe I should not say I do not trust doctors; perhaps it would be more fair to say that their ignorance on the subject has done nothing to convince me I should vaccinate..  
 

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#27 of 64 Old 02-01-2011, 08:20 AM
 
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Fair enough :) It really comes down to our own perceptions of risk.



 

 

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#28 of 64 Old 02-01-2011, 03:56 PM
 
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I have to say that I'm loving this thread.  Such a simple question and such complicated answers.  I was thinking more about the risk and what No5No5 said about buying a car that isn't as safe because of money as well as other things that you can't afford to make safer.  Also, i've read that it's the more affluent folks who are opting out  of vaccines the most.  I wonder if it's because people with money aren't used to having to make these decisions about safety.  For them, they live in safe neighborhoods and drive safe cars, eat safe food, etc.  The risk of vaccine reactions is probably scarier to these folks who don't really deal with risks on a daily basis.  I admit that even as a middle class person, I drive a safe vehicle, live in a safe place and all of my water and food is safe.  I don't really think of my kids as being in any risky situations.  Maybe if there were other risks I was aware of around my kids, I'd be less concerned about vaccines and more concerned with those other things.  I don't know. 

 

I agree with Kathy Muggle that I want to be able to make those choices about what I am willing to risk.  However, that's not really fair either.  A rich person gets a safe vaccine and a poor person gets the toxic one?  Who wouldn't choose the safer one?  They should all be as safe as possible though.


Our children make a study of us in a way no one else ever will.  If we don't act according to our values, they will know.~Starhawk Rainbow.gif  New  User Agreement! http://www.mothering.com/community/wiki/user-agreement

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#29 of 64 Old 02-02-2011, 02:08 PM
 
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You can`t trust vaccines and you shouldn`t...VACCINATION IS BUSINESS BASED ON FEAR and someone makes huge money out of people`s unfortune...it is not only vaccines..it is everything...they want to make us and our kids ill so the pharmaceutical companies will make amazing amount of money...hard to believe but it is the fact and one should really think if you want to trust these so-called set up organizations...they are set up for someone else not to help people...unfortunately...vaccines ingredients should be enough ..i think it is absolutely immoral to use people (elderly or newborns) as quinea pigs..make them ill on purpose so they would make money??

MERCURY, FORMALDEHYD, SORBITOL, GELATINE, MONKEY KIDNEYS, ABBORTED FETAL TISSUE, CHICK EMBRYO, THIMEROSAL just to name a few so one would see that nothing good can come out of this...however, some people even after knowing what it contains would still vaccinate...that is what i will never understand...

 

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

http://vran.org/

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/

 

 

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#30 of 64 Old 02-02-2011, 02:13 PM
 
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yes and forgot to mention..that for every and each person ( child, adult..you name it) one pediatrician will get some points and money for doing so...these so called doctors should never be allowed to work with people...especially babies...

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