Should vaccinated have right to sue unvaccinated? - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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#301 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post




Yes, this is very true. I think a lot of parents are afraid to even open a book to research what's in vaccines because #1, they are afraid to really find out what's in them, because # 2, if they do find out what's in them, they will have to make a decision to go against the grain, thus "causing waves," and it's much easier to follow all doctors orders and have all of their trust in them that the doctor knows best. This is not everyone, but there are a lot of people out there who don't do any research at all. I know of some personally so I guarantee there are a ton more out there.
 

 

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Wait, this is funny because a lot of your posts normally consist of all caps. If that's not yelling, I don't know what is. You are completely generalizing all nonvaxers as yelling at you and saying you are uneducated when I have not seen one post that says that or even insinuates that. Now it's just getting crazy and terribly annoying. You don't hear me complaining that I'm tired of all vaxers saying those who don't vaccinate are going to die, do you? And that's because I don't believe it and don't care what they say. Maybe you shouldn't either.


I'm pretty sure your second post is the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?  In one post you say that most vaxers don't do rsearch b/c they are afraid to find out anything, b/c then they have to make a decision to do something different - (ie, if you research the right way you won't want to vax), and the second says that there isn't a single post that insinuates non-vaxers are uneducated?  Really?  I'm pretty sure you posted twice in a row and just made my point for me.

 

You are very judgmental in these posts, even if you don't see it, and its very offensive.

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#302 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 09:55 AM
 
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I'm pretty sure your second post is the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?  In one post you say that most vaxers don't do rsearch b/c they are afraid to find out anything, b/c then they have to make a decision to do something different - (ie, if you research the right way you won't want to vax), and the second says that there isn't a single post that insinuates non-vaxers are uneducated?  Really?  I'm pretty sure you posted twice in a row and just made my point for me.

 

You are very judgmental in these posts, even if you don't see it, and its very offensive.


Have you researched vaccines? If your answer if yes, then you are excluded from my post above. Majority of people on this forum HAVE researched. I was talking about in the world. I have no idea why you are trying to turn all of my posts around, but it's turning into a pattern.

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#303 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 10:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post


If I have to spell it out once again for you, I will. Have you researched vaccines??? If your answer if yes, then you are excluded from my post above. Majority of people on this forum HAVE researched. I was talking about in the world. I have no idea why you are trying to turn all of my posts around, but it's a pattern with you now. I don't care what you think of me.


You don't know the world though.  You know some people who have no researched, that is not a basis upon which to assume that most people do not research.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't, we don't know that.  B/c we don't know that, its an unfounded assumption, and judgment against people that you, nor I, even know.  Yes, pot calling the kettle black.

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#304 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 10:36 AM
 
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Well , I get my research from independent medical studies , that have been keeping track for a long time . Plus , saying , that little boys are not susceptible to infertility is something , you cannot say , because , how do you know ? Do you test your son´s fertility after a mumps infection ? No , of course not , who would and these kind of things will not show up until later in life .

Plus , like I said before , immunity wears off , and even though , you cannot get for example chicken pox a second time , you can get another form of herpes , which is in the virus family causing , among others , chicken pox . And tetanus is something , where you can get immunity for about 8-10 years after vaccination . And tetanus is dangerous , anyone not vaccinated can get it , like I said before , so to clarify it even more , out of 100 people , 48-73 WILL die from it . That is a lot higher number than that of people having problems after the vacc .

I did my research , and I have also witnessed people , who have had it , so I´d rather take my chance with the vaccine .

Just like anti-vac people , there are those of us , who research it and choose to vacc , because of the research we did .

And the problem with the argument about the dangers of vaccination is the same problem with the dangers of not vaccing .

It is very simple to blame a vaccine on health problem , just think about this british doctor a few years ago , who claimed that the DTP shot caused autism . Was it true ? Of course not !

Or people saying , certain vaccines cause heart problems later in life ! How do you know , it was the vaccine ?

It is always easy to point the finger at somebody , who doesn´t follow your lead .

You are accusing some of us to be rude and unfair , well sorry , you are basically making us sound like brainwashed sheep , who , when a docto says "jump , we ask "how high?"

THAT is also unfair and rude . I don´t get the flu jab , ever , I just don´t feel it´s necessary , plus with the way flu viruses change all the time and as many of them around as there are , I see no point ,  and I see it that way , because I have extensively researched it .

But for anyone to claim , that measles or mumps or diphteria or whatnot , are harmless childhood diseases , that usually cause not short-or long-term problems , that is not doing proper research

And like I said , before , I have seen kids die from those harmless diseases and some of the mothers I have encountered , have walked hundreds of miles to get their kids immunized , because they didn´t want to lose yet another one to that "harmless" disease .

And if a school does not allow a child in , because it is not immunized , then they do that because they have the best interest of everyone there in mind , not the personal ideology of a single person .

I am not saying , that a mother , who won´t vaccinate , does not love her child , I think mothers usually have their kids best interest at heart , but some of those mothers should look past the tip of their nose , before making everyone else look like the devil , because , believe it or not , those of us , who do vacc , also are intelligent , informed individuals , who have our kids best interest at heart .

 


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I don't see why you guys think non-vaxers are attacking you, I am certainly not. What you do with your child is your choice. The thread was started to say they should be able to sue non-vaxers for exposing their kids to "VPD"s and like I and others have said that is ridiculous.

 

I know my DD had bad reactions to vax and I did stop vaxing her, have done a lot of research, and have come to the conclusion to not vax my future children either. There are a lot of different factors in it for me, which I suppose makes my case special, but for me vaxing her was endangering her and I refuse to subject my daughter to the torture she went through b/c of the vaccines she received for any "greater good". End of story.

 

So how about everyone just stops all the prejudice regardless of what conclusion we came up with?

 

I am checking out of this thread


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Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post


 


When you make a decision to go against what the majority of people do, it can make you a little overly judgemental about the whole thing.  I know that I was when I first made the decision.  I truly considered vaccines to be a poison and could not understand why people would do it if they truly knew what I knew.  Now, I know that that's not the case at all.  I'm comfortable in my decision and therefore comfortable with others decisions.  Everyone is somewhere on that continuum and that's why it's good to have this board.  We need support when we're newly trying to figure this out and we also need to see differing opinions so that we can gently come to a comfortable, accepting place.  It can be frustrating to feel that you're being persecuted.  I feel like that often when I read posts here.  But, even when I feel deeply offended, I value the knowledge that there are people in the world who think differently than I do.



Oh my, yes. What's that saying... "I learn the most from those I disagree with."

 



 

 

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#307 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 11:37 AM
 
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I've been following this thread for quite awhile and have held back from saying anything, but I had to say something when I read the post SSM made below. I bolded the portion I'm specifically speaking to. SSM - from most of your posts I glean that you are pretty defensive and angry. And I'm pretty sure it's b/c of the assumption you make below, namely that non-vaxers think "vaxers are dumb and uneducated." That is a huge assumption and one you might want to rethink before you speak. You don't like people making assumptions about you vaxing your child, so maybe you should do the same and not make assumptions about what non-vaxers think of vaxers. It might help you be less angry.

 

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Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



 

And your opinions aren't much better since they insinuate that those of us who vax haven't done our research, are stupid, and want our children to have horrible things happen to them.  Which is also HIGHLY offensive.  I'm pretty uncertain why this forum even exists at all since the overall consensus of the non-vaxers is that all us vaxers are dumb and uneducated.  I mean, I don't really get what you're trying to say (since you haven't provided any good objective research either)
 

 



 

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#308 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 View Post


Yes, this is very true. I think a lot of parents are afraid to even open a book to research what's in vaccines because #1, they are afraid to really find out what's in them, because # 2, if they do find out what's in them, they will have to make a decision to go against the grain, thus "causing waves," and it's much easier to follow all doctors orders and have all of their trust in them that the doctor knows best. This is not everyone, but there are a lot of people out there who don't do any research at all. I know of some personally so I guarantee there are a ton more out there.
 


 

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Originally Posted by MamaofLiam View Post

I've been following this thread for quite awhile and have held back from saying anything, but I had to say something when I read the post SSM made below. I bolded the portion I'm specifically speaking to. SSM - from most of your posts I glean that you are pretty defensive and angry. And I'm pretty sure it's b/c of the assumption you make below, namely that non-vaxers think "vaxers are dumb and uneducated." That is a huge assumption and one you might want to rethink before you speak. You don't like people making assumptions about you vaxing your child, so maybe you should do the same and not make assumptions about what non-vaxers think of vaxers. It might help you be less angry.

 


So why don't you read what SilverMoon010 wrote above.  I quoted it for you, so that you don't have to dig around.  She said, that if vaxer's researched, they would have to make the decision to go against the grain.  She didn't even leave in there any room for someone to make a decision to vax anyway.  She has made, several times, that judgment. 

 

I'm not angry, other than being upset that vaxers are consistently judged for not doing their research.  Thats what this forum is about - research so that your children don't get shot up with poison!!

 

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You don't know the world though.  You know some people who have no researched, that is not a basis upon which to assume that most people do not research.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't, we don't know that.  B/c we don't know that, its an unfounded assumption, and judgment against people that you, nor I, even know.  Yes, pot calling the kettle black.

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Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I don't see why you guys think non-vaxers are attacking you, I am certainly not. What you do with your child is your choice. The thread was started to say they should be able to sue non-vaxers for exposing their kids to "VPD"s and like I and others have said that is ridiculous.

 

I know my DD had bad reactions to vax and I did stop vaxing her, have done a lot of research, and have come to the conclusion to not vax my future children either. There are a lot of different factors in it for me, which I suppose makes my case special, but for me vaxing her was endangering her and I refuse to subject my daughter to the torture she went through b/c of the vaccines she received for any "greater good". End of story.

 

So how about everyone just stops all the prejudice regardless of what conclusion we came up with?

 

I am checking out of this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

 


 


So why don't you read what SilverMoon010 wrote above.  I quoted it for you, so that you don't have to dig around.  She said, that if vaxer's researched, they would have to make the decision to go against the grain.  She didn't even leave in there any room for someone to make a decision to vax anyway.  She has made, several times, that judgment. 

 

I'm not angry, other than being upset that vaxers are consistently judged for not doing their research.  Thats what this forum is about - research so that your children don't get shot up with poison!!

 



I edited my post above that SSM is referring to for further clarification so I don't offend anyone. It's on page 15.

In short, I don't believe once everyone researches vaccines they are going to decide to not vaccinate at all. It's a matter of personal choice. It's safe to say everyone on this forum has researched. However, there are a lot of naive people who don't research at all and trust their doctors fully. Each child is unique and will not all fit into the one-size-fits-all category of vaccines. Yet, this is never taken into consideration. My point was that yes, some people would be afraid to go against the CDC/AAP recommendations because it is more difficult to do so and much easier to just take their doctors word for it. You can't believe everyone out there has researched vaccines.

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#310 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 03:27 PM
 
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Let's assume the best of each other - that we have good intentions of having a thoughtful discussion, examining all sides of the issue. As far as the nature of this forum is concerned, we embrace all parents, regardless of their vaccination choice.
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First of all , black pox is not a side effect of chicken pox , it is a form of pox all by itself and it is VERY lethal and yes , no vaccine that I am aware of causes lifetime immunity , but also not every disease , that you had causes lifetime immunity , there are cases , when the immunity against them was not complete .

Plus , a mortality rate of 48 to 73 % means in numbers , that half to 3/4 of all people getting it , will die .

Have you ever seen anybody , who had tetanus , the lock jaw , the excrutiating pain , the muscle cramps , that will make you bend backwards ? 

Well , I have and the problem with the bacteria , that causes tetanus is , that it is in many places , not only on a rusty nail , like most people believe .

All you basically have to do , is dig in the dirt in your backyard with a fresh cut on your hand and you can theoretically get it and yes , if you got hurt , you can get the shot , but it takes longer for the shot to take effect , than the outbreak of the disease in many cases , so that is also not a foolproof way to go .

One of  the reasons , why babies get immunized at a fairly early age , is , so that they can build up immunity before they start getting into situations , where they can contract possibly fatal illnesses 

Mumps is a childhood disease , did you know , that about 30% of all boys going through it , become infertile , because their testicles become inflamed ?

And it is NOT true , that most cases of measles carry no side effects , unfortunately , most cases do have some long-term effects , like heart problems and that sort .

And polio is one disease , where there is NO cure to this day and even though some people do get lucky and have no long-term problems , there are many people , that do .

Yes ,  the developer of the polio vaccine admitted , that it was not safe , but since then , polio vacc has come a long way and the vacc given by shot now , rather than the live virus given by mouth has proven to be a lot safer and with a lot less side effects than the "old" one

I am not saying , that people , who don´t vacc , are careless , but the problem is in our society , that we are not exposed to and do not see all these illnesses anymore , the way people did 100 years ago . 

If you have EVER been to a 3rd World country and witnessed the devastation caused by a "harmless" disease , I promise , you will see it in a different light .


 

I don't live in a 3rd world country.  I live in a developed country with clean water, sanitation, and access to modern medical care.  My health concerns are literally worlds apart from those in underdeveloped countries. 

 

We don't see these illnesses anymore because of sanitation and hygiene.  Or would you suggest that we should be vaccinating for the bubonic plague and typhoid as well?

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#312 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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Well , I get my research from independent medical studies , that have been keeping track for a long time . Plus , saying , that little boys are not susceptible to infertility is something , you cannot say , because , how do you know ? Do you test your son´s fertility after a mumps infection ? No , of course not , who would and these kind of things will not show up until later in life .

Plus , like I said before , immunity wears off , and even though , you cannot get for example chicken pox a second time , you can get another form of herpes , which is in the virus family causing , among others , chicken pox . And tetanus is something , where you can get immunity for about 8-10 years after vaccination . And tetanus is dangerous , anyone not vaccinated can get it , like I said before , so to clarify it even more , out of 100 people , 48-73 WILL die from it . That is a lot higher number than that of people having problems after the vacc .

I did my research , and I have also witnessed people , who have had it , so I´d rather take my chance with the vaccine .

Just like anti-vac people , there are those of us , who research it and choose to vacc , because of the research we did .

And the problem with the argument about the dangers of vaccination is the same problem with the dangers of not vaccing .

It is very simple to blame a vaccine on health problem , just think about this british doctor a few years ago , who claimed that the DTP shot caused autism . Was it true ? Of course not !

Or people saying , certain vaccines cause heart problems later in life ! How do you know , it was the vaccine ?

It is always easy to point the finger at somebody , who doesn´t follow your lead .

You are accusing some of us to be rude and unfair , well sorry , you are basically making us sound like brainwashed sheep , who , when a docto says "jump , we ask "how high?"

THAT is also unfair and rude . I don´t get the flu jab , ever , I just don´t feel it´s necessary , plus with the way flu viruses change all the time and as many of them around as there are , I see no point ,  and I see it that way , because I have extensively researched it .

But for anyone to claim , that measles or mumps or diphteria or whatnot , are harmless childhood diseases , that usually cause not short-or long-term problems , that is not doing proper research

And like I said , before , I have seen kids die from those harmless diseases and some of the mothers I have encountered , have walked hundreds of miles to get their kids immunized , because they didn´t want to lose yet another one to that "harmless" disease .

And if a school does not allow a child in , because it is not immunized , then they do that because they have the best interest of everyone there in mind , not the personal ideology of a single person .

I am not saying , that a mother , who won´t vaccinate , does not love her child , I think mothers usually have their kids best interest at heart , but some of those mothers should look past the tip of their nose , before making everyone else look like the devil , because , believe it or not , those of us , who do vacc , also are intelligent , informed individuals , who have our kids best interest at heart .

 



I honestly want to know what "independent medical studies" are telling you that 16,000 people die in the US from chicken pox every year, because it's simply not true.  You may have done some research, but if those are the kinds of statistics you are finding, I can't imagine how legitimate your sources could possibly be.

 

You may be intelligent, but you come across as extremely MISinformed.

 

And actually, Wakefield's conclusion was not that DTP caused autism - the vaccine in question was the MMR, and the study was about bowel disease in children with autism.  The parents of those children still support Wakefield and his study.  Where exactly did you read that it was the DTP vaccine??


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I try to stick with judging vaccines, not vaccinators.  Opinions are needed and wonderful, so is radical new thought (bring it ON is my opinion on that), but it doesn't make one's case stronger to ad hominem one's way through a debate. Eg, “Pro-vaxers don't research well, therefore we shouldn't vaccinate.” 

 

 Anyway...

 

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

The biggest problem with the vaccination statistics is , that people say "well , look at all the people who die or have damage from immunization compared to those , whose go through the disease"

And that alone is absolutely ridiculous and 100% untrue . Some people do get problems after the vaccines , BUT  those statistics include EVERYBODY who was vaccinated , including people with a suppressed immune system and people , who are allergic to one or a few of the vac ingredients .

And , considering the vast number of people , who are being vaccinated all over the world every year , those numbers are still extremely small .

And compared to that , the number of children , that used to die of so-called "harmless" childhood diseases even decades ago , before there were vaccines , are huge and to this day in third World countries , babies and children still die in alarming numbers , that are not vaccinated . The only reasoon , why many people don´t die from the diseases nowadays , is because there simply are not so many cases around , because most people use common sense and vaccinate their kids and themselves .

Plus , something as "harmless" as chicken pox still kills about 18.000 people in the US alone very year , measles in most cases lead to meningitis and inflammation of the heart muscle and so on  , and many other "harmless" illnesses lead at the least to infertility and such problems .  

I would love to ask a mother in the 1920s or 1930s , if she would choose to have her kid vaccinated against polio (to which there is NO cure for to this day , only prevention by vaccine) or diphteria , which killed hordes of children many years ago , or if she would rather have him/her go through the natural disease .

I am guessing , the nanswer would be "give the vaccine" .

Or tetanus , there is NO SUCH THING as immunity to tetanus , it will kill you , slowly and VERY painfully , yes it is quite rare , but I´d rather take my chances with the vaccination , that the risk of getting it .

 

 

Of most relevance to tetanus is the fact that there are no deaths recorded for the under 35 age bracket Source 


As I am a proponent of free choice, even for my children. I have not made decisions on their behalf if it is a decision that can be left to themselves when they are older such as circumcision, and tetanus falls under that category because even if I had no other reasons, the risk is not in their age bracket.

 

For chicken pox, the stats have not been in the hundreds for a very long time. They sit at around 40. source  

Of those recorded, they are immuno-compromised. Due to this, recommendations are it is “better to confine immunisation to those at high risk” Source


People who are immuno-compromised can (and do) die from the common cold, but we don't start flapping about saying a cold is fatal illness and therefore we all need protection from it.

 

Regarding deaths from vaccines, in 2009 the total deaths recorded at VAERS was 238, source (you'll have to search "deaths, 2009" as the pages do not link)

 

For those who have some objections to VAERS (most pro-vaxers, I'd imagine) remember that only 1 to 10% are reported, so the reality is at least ten times higher, of which the percentage of compensated claims filed are about 50% source (the HRSA is not opening for me at the moment, but I found the chart for 2010 on that link)

 

I have to run right now, but I hope that fills in some of the blanks for the vaccine deaths.

 

I consider the statistics such as deaths per year from vaccines to be the bare essentials. I thought everyone knew at least that... or how to locate such information. I'm a little taken aback that this is not the case. How did people make decisions on issues of safety without even being aware that there are more deaths from vaccination than the diseases themselves?? Or not being aware that there has been over 98 million dollars paid out in damages for this year already and it's only April?  

 

Stick to the facts.  No one can argue those statistics. The only thing they can do is push the idea that although they aren't getting direct benefit for their child anymore (there's basically no risk, look at the statistics!), there is an overall responsibility to vaccinate to keep such statistics low. That's what the debate should be: should we vaccinate our children even when there is no direct risk to our own child for the benefit of the population? The rest is simply educating the vaxers so they stop saying there is all this death and maiming around when there simply isn't.  Except in the vaccinated.


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Redundant.  Deleted.  

 

 


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Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





 




B/c of what you wrote above.  You assume that people in the "real world" haven't done their research.  Do you discuss it with them?  Have you asked?  Probably not, I don't generally discuss hot topic items with people in the real world.  I probably don't look any different from other parents that vax "in the real world".  The reason I read and post is to challenge the idea that people who vax don't research, and do it out of fear.

 

 



Yes, actually I've talked to dozens of parents about their vaccination decisions.  So you are turning it around and assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about - I do.  I know many parents and know that their understanding of vaccines is about as limited as mine was before my second was born.  

 

I don't assume that anyone has or hasn't done their research.  I just know that the vast majority of vaccine advocates that I've encountered use such "logic" as "Better safe than sorry!" and "Vaccines don't cause autism, and Jenny McCarthy should be held responsible for ALL those deaths!" when discussing vaccines.  

 

You can challenge all you want, but you are reading judgments that simply aren't there.  I don't assume anything about anyone's thought process, though you seem to assume that every non-vaxer thinks you are a horrible mother. 


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#316 of 360 Old 04-08-2011, 05:04 PM
 
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Super Single Mom, I am sorry you are feeling judged. I always hate feeling like others are questioning my decisions as a parent. 

 

That being said,  the majority of Vax'ers I meet (like have had actually conversations with) that have a problem with my lack of vax'ing usually can't even hold a conversation with me. Especially  when we start talking research.  Not one of the mom's in my playgroup, that is pretty conservative minded (I stick out like a sore thumb), are even familiar with VAERS.

Therefore this leads me to judge (yes, I am human) that they are not educated when it comes to vax. I come to the conclusion that they are not making educated decisions, only going with the flow of what they feel they "should" do. 

Outside of the influence Western medicine and generations before us have on our decisions, I cannot understand why someone would be willing to risk vaccinating their child according to the AAP's schedule. 

 


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#317 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 02:12 AM
 
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I don't see freak of nature when I see someone who's 130 either, but personally I haven't ever met anyone that old, so I don't know WHAT I'd think.  Have you ever personally met a person who was 130?

 

Yes.  Several.  When I lived in Japan.  And I also met a woman who was 102 while travelling through Indonesia.

 

And if I've learned anything in my work life as a naturopath and my travels, it's that it doesn't matter how grass fed your "beef" is, if you eat animals, your chances of joining those with longevity is greatly lessened.  However, from my personal experience, work results, studies and then further research, if you must eat meat, ditch grains and don't over heat your food.  I happen to know the native Americans cooked their food and ate animals... therefore they do not fit my research criteria and their health history confirms my findings, as do the native Australians for what it's worth.

 

 

 

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ETA - and, NOT each and every single baby ever ever ever born thrives off breastmilk,  There is a rare disorder where a baby cannot break it down (regardless of what elimination diet the mother goes on).  It's rare, but its not true that every baby ever born can thrive on it.  Huge, overbroad statements really don't mean anything.

I am not denying babies can be born with illnesses or issues.  And that is exactly what that is... it certainly isn't healthy to be born unable to ingest the only food a mammal is meant to drink from birth.  If a baby cannot ingest human milk that doesn't mean they were born with the digestion to suddenly down some beer, or steak, or even carrot juice or milk from another species.  Their digestive tract is still an infant human's.


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#318 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 02:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jugs View Post




One would think that, having made the claim of 35 vaccine-related deaths vs 0 VPD-related deaths, you would have the evidence bookmarked...on the off chance that someone calls you on it. I'm genuinely not sure if it was an intentional sleight of hand or if you are privy to data that hasn't yet been released.

As mentioned, it only recently dawned on me that so many people don't know this stuff.  

 

That explains a lot.

 

There were 14 pertussis deaths in 2009, btw, so I change it from zero to 14.  Interestingly, in the same year there were 15 deaths from the pertussis vaccine reported by doctors and in 2010 there were 773 death claims filed against the vaccine with total of 1371 injury and deaths awarded compensation - all for pertussis alone.  (includes the multiple vaxes DTP and DTaP)

 

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#319 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 06:20 AM
 
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Perhaps I wasn't being transparent enough, but I was challenging you to show me how you figured your statistics; I am quite familiar with VAERS and NVICP, as well as the CDC's morbidity and mortality surveillance system, which is why I knew that 35 vs 0 figure was incorrect. Also, if you read the NVICP footnote carefully, you will find that 773 death claims and 1371 claims awarded for pertussis vaccines is actually from 1986-2010, not 2010 alone.

 

ETA: its also inaccurate to compare the number of disease-related injuries and deaths to the number vaccine-related injuries and deaths; a more accurate risk-assessment would be to compare the rate of disease- and vaccine-related injuries and deaths. As the number of vaccine doses administered far outweighs the number of reported cases of VPDs, the rate of vaccine-related injuries and deaths is significantly lower, even when under-reporting is accounted for.



 

 

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Calm-  You've met several people who were 130?  Really?  I mean, the oldest living person EVER was 122.  On the list of 10 oldest people, most are 114, max.  And you, personally, have met several over 130?  Wow.  That's all I can say.

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#321 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by amnesiac View Post

Let's assume the best of each other - that we have good intentions of having a thoughtful discussion, examining all sides of the issue. As far as the nature of this forum is concerned, we embrace all parents, regardless of their vaccination choice.


Well, then maybe the vax forum needs to be moderated better, b/c it certainly doesn't feel that way to me.  It seems like its Vaxers vs. Non-Vaxers, and non-vaxers are convinced that I'm poisoning my child.

 

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#322 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




Well, then maybe the vax forum needs to be moderated better, b/c it certainly doesn't feel that way to me.  It seems like its Vaxers vs. Non-Vaxers, and non-vaxers are convinced that I'm poisoning my child.

 



Give me a break.  I could just as easily say that Vaxers are convinced that non-vaxers are putting their children at risk and ignoring the "greatest achievement in human history", oh, and that anyone who loves their family would surely vaccinate. 


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#323 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 10:40 AM
 
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I think you are taking the opinions of others in regards to their own situation way too personally. No one here is out to get you. No one here is on a mission to tell you you are a bad mother. I don't think anyone is judging you one way or the other - I believe most people are primarily concerned with their own children, not yours. And last time I checked this thread wasn't called "SSM is poisoning her child", it was called "should the vaccinated have a right to sue the unvaccinated." I'm beginning to believe that you may just be doing this to incite people to tell you otherwise, for attention, validation, who knows. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, including vaxers and non-vaxers. So just deal with it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




Well, then maybe the vax forum needs to be moderated better, b/c it certainly doesn't feel that way to me.  It seems like its Vaxers vs. Non-Vaxers, and non-vaxers are convinced that I'm poisoning my child.

 



 

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#324 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 10:55 AM
 
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formatting error - I don't know why the font is so large in my response. oops

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#325 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post



Of course!  I know we all love the idea that we are all "unique" and all that, but really, we ain't.  I get asked this question all the time so I've refined the answer over time to this: would you ask the same thing about dogs?  No, in fact, it would be patently absurd to suggest that some dogs do better with vegan food and other dogs do better with cooked meat and yet another (he's such a radical, that Fido) does best with raw foods.  It just isn't a fact.  ALL dogs do best with BARF - Biologically Appropriate Raw Food.  

 

People shift uncomfortably in their seat at the idea that all of us are the same in any area... we feel we are different to all the other animals in this regard.  All other animals have a biologically perfect diet, uh, except humans?  That makes no sense. 

 

 

Oh, and regarding teeth again, dogs fed BARF don't need to have their teeth brushed.

 

"The results are in and it's obvious that dog's fed a raw diet have much cleaner teeth. The processed or cooked foods eaten by dogs today are high in two substances; soluble carbohydrates and soluble calcium. These two nutrients attack a dog's mouth at every meal. In addition, processed foods do not contain the naturally occurring enzymes found in  raw foods so necessary for clean teeth. Through the use of raw bones and a healthy BARF diet, your dog can have a sparkling smile!"

 

 


i have sevaral comments:

 

1- i find it interesting that you would posit that all humans are the same on the vaccine forum, where it is very common to suggest that some children are more sensitive to vaccine ingredients than others, leading to reactions in some children and not in others.

 

2- i am, unfortunately for your assertion, quite familiar with both the BARF diet for canines, and a raw diet for humans, having gone so far as to both feed my dog and myself diets following those guidelines. this was about five years ago, and i no longer follow those guidelines due to the negative affects on my own health (i must have been doing it wrong!) and the lack of benefit that i saw for my dog when compared to the expense of the BARF diet. i also am aware that some dogs function better on different diets (duck and potato anyone?) than others.

 

3- my current dog is fed a dried grain-free diet and my cat isfed a dried regular food that is not grain free. neither of them have teeth issues including tartar or smell. my cat is fifteen and my dog is about four. she does get chewies, which i've found to be very effective at keeping her teeth clean.

 

4- finally, i've seen plenty of older cats with few health problems that were fed the cheapest purina cat chow you can find. it really isn't as straight forward as you'd like it to be.

 

with this, i think i'm done, as it seems that this should probably be in pets? or maybe food? either way, i don't think that it belongs in a vax thread! blush.gif


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#326 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 12:36 PM
 
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Yes, those are tremendously interesting discussions - please do feel free to start new threads in Pets or Nutrition & Good Eating as appropriate to the topic you'd like to discuss further.

Also feel free to PM any of the Vax moderators or our administrators if you have any questions or concerns about the forum. We are always more than happy to hear from you. smile.gif




So regardless of our personal vax choices, it looks like our discussion in this thread has shown that we have quite a lot of uncertain feelings about legal liability in relation to vax choices. I was really interested to read some of the specific legal language and explanation of how that language is applied in court provided in the early pages of the thread since that's not something I have a lot of personal experience with.
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#327 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post



As mentioned, it only recently dawned on me that so many people don't know this stuff.  

 

That explains a lot.

 

There were 14 pertussis deaths in 2009, btw, so I change it from zero to 14.  Interestingly, in the same year there were 15 deaths from the pertussis vaccine reported by doctors and in 2010 there were 773 death claims filed against the vaccine with total of 1371 injury and deaths awarded compensation - all for pertussis alone.  (includes the multiple vaxes DTP and DTaP)

 

 

 

What is your source for 15 deaths from pertussis vaccine?

 

Actually, there were not 773* death claims or 1371* injury/death compensations for 2010, those numbers cover the entire period from when the program started in 1988 through 2010, so about 22 years. 

 

*or numbers very close to those, but I think that your math may have been slightly off. 

 

Also, comparing numbers of deaths attributed to vaccines to deaths from disease does not show which is the more dangerous option.  It fails to take into consideration that one of the reasons deaths from VPD are so rare is because we live in a highly vaccinated society - vaccines keep people from getting the disease, and people can't die of diseases they don't even get. 

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#328 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 02:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jugs View Post

 

ETA: its also inaccurate to compare the number of disease-related injuries and deaths to the number vaccine-related injuries and deaths; a more accurate risk-assessment would be to compare the rate of disease- and vaccine-related injuries and deaths. As the number of vaccine doses administered far outweighs the number of reported cases of VPDs, the rate of vaccine-related injuries and deaths is significantly lower, even when under-reporting is accounted for.


I know that's what is commonly done, and you can find that kind of comparison anywhere.  

 

Hence why I do a different comparison, which splits the whole issue wide open.  

 

Most are shocked to learn there are no deaths from most VPD, and almost no deaths from all VPD, yet there are deaths from vaccines.  No matter how you fumble with the facts of "are vaxes safe" or "do vaxes work", there's that elephant in the room that won't be ignored.  I don't care how you want me to compare, to make it look less horrific than it really is.... I'll continue to keep parents informed of the truth of the situation as it is where we are and the situation as it is currently.  We are not in Africa.  And we are not in 1960 anymore, nor 1980, nor even 2000.  We must adjust decisions for our children based on current, applicable information.  So you continue keeping all that antiquated, manipulated, irrelevant information alive if you like.  I, however, will not.

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post




i have sevaral comments:

 

1- i find it interesting that you would posit that all humans are the same on the vaccine forum, where it is very common to suggest that some children are more sensitive to vaccine ingredients than others, leading to reactions in some children and not in others.

 

2- i am, unfortunately for your assertion, quite familiar with both the BARF diet for canines, and a raw diet for humans, having gone so far as to both feed my dog and myself diets following those guidelines. this was about five years ago, and i no longer follow those guidelines due to the negative affects on my own health (i must have been doing it wrong!) and the lack of benefit that i saw for my dog when compared to the expense of the BARF diet. i also am aware that some dogs function better on different diets (duck and potato anyone?) than others.

 

3- my current dog is fed a dried grain-free diet and my cat isfed a dried regular food that is not grain free. neither of them have teeth issues including tartar or smell. my cat is fifteen and my dog is about four. she does get chewies, which i've found to be very effective at keeping her teeth clean.

 

4- finally, i've seen plenty of older cats with few health problems that were fed the cheapest purina cat chow you can find. it really isn't as straight forward as you'd like it to be.

 

with this, i think i'm done, as it seems that this should probably be in pets? or maybe food? either way, i don't think that it belongs in a vax thread! blush.gif

Hi Playamama smile.gif

 

1) I didn't say all humans were the same.  I said all humans have the same biological dietary needs and potential for vital health.  To preempt the inevitable reactions to that I do an automatic comparison to dogs, which usually cuts that reaction down by quite a margin.  It is much easier for a conditioned people to acknowledge all of one particular species thrive best on one particular diet than it is to imagine the same for humans.  Due to the many emotional, spiritual and physical environments, plus the many diets and almost endless factors playing on all humans at all times, there are perceivable differences between us.  Studies show the same in animals, for example, primates.  Primates in zoos behave differently to wild ones, and they also exhibit different dietary issues.  These issues are eradicated when they revert to a wild environment and diet.

 

2) With respect to the forum and topic, I won't go further in this particular issue other than to say that yes, it is common to do a raw diet wrong.  Dogs were not meant to eat cooked or processed food, wild dogs can't cook... simple.  ETA - we used to feed our dog raw food that we put together ourselves but it can be expensive and time consuming.  So we now buy from a company that does BARF.  It is cheaper by about 30 cents a feed than cooked pet food.  I'll admit I was surprised by that myself.  Perhaps it is just my local supplier.

 

3) You seem like a very caring pet owner.

 

4) I've known people to live to 90 who smoked a pack a day and ate McDonalds regularly.  I don't believe those things added to their longevity, however.  

 

I agree, the animal topic has served it's purpose and I'll leave it to rest now.
 

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#330 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 02:38 PM
 
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 I'll continue to keep parents informed of the truth of the situation as it is where we are and the situation as it is currently

 


So, if you are telling them the truth, you are informing them that their kids are unlikely to encounter most vaccine preventable diseases thanks to high vaccination rates, right?  And that should vaccination rates fall below what is needed to maintain herd immunity, then their kids will be at risk after all?  And that this is no protection against tetanus since that is not a communicable disease so herd immunity is not applicable?  

 

If you really want them to do what is absolutely best for their child, then perhaps you should tell them to keep quiet about their choice not to vaccinate and encourage everyone else to vaccinate since it is everyone else's vaccines that are keeping them safe...

 

Also, not sure if you saw my post just above the two you just posted or not, since we posted at the same time. 

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