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#331 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 03:19 PM
 
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Perhaps I wasn't being transparent enough, but I was challenging you to show me how you figured your statistics; I am quite familiar with VAERS and NVICP, as well as the CDC's morbidity and mortality surveillance system, which is why I knew that 35 vs 0 figure was incorrect. Also, if you read the NVICP footnote carefully, you will find that 773 death claims and 1371 claims awarded for pertussis vaccines is actually from 1986-2010, not 2010 alone.

If you knew the pertussis stat, why didn't you link your data or at least tell me when I asked for corrections several pages back?  Are we not here to help each other?  If you "knew" it was incorrect, was that in your gut, or do you have data?  Could you link your data for me?  If you would like to check my source of 35 deaths, you will have to call these lawyers.  Not all data is easily linked, esp when the figures are so well hidden behind things like percentages, global numbers and "number of deaths per case".  

 

And yes, that was for the 22 year period so about 35 a year.  I thought that figure was too high for one vax!  I was initially happy (for want of a better word) with the 15 reported by doctors, as that is quite high enough, esp considering 1 to 10% is all that is reported.  

 

My source, for those who asked, for the 15 is VAERS.  I can't link VAERS pages, but if you fill in this search form, select "DTAP" on the vaccine list, then scroll near the bottom and select "yes" next to "died" and then scroll right to the bottom and select 2009.  You'll be able to read about each death in more detail if you scroll down the page, like this little boy's report.  

 

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#332 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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I meant to add, that law firm's page above is worth reading, as their findings suggest the death rate at 1000 per year.  That figure is more in line with the statistics when you add them all together.  No wonder they are made so hard to find, it would mean the average person would be able to figure these numbers out themselves and few would vaccinate on herd benefit alone.


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#333 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 03:56 PM
 
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Pers, I've run out of time, but I wanted to let you know that I have read your posts and I will respond to you some hours from now.  smile.gif


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#334 of 360 Old 04-09-2011, 04:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post

 

If you knew the pertussis stat, why didn't you link your data or at least tell me when I asked for corrections several pages back?  Are we not here to help each other?  If you "knew" it was incorrect, was that in your gut, or do you have data?  Could you link your data for me?  If you would like to check my source of 35 deaths, you will have to call these lawyers.  Not all data is easily linked, esp when the figures are so well hidden behind things like percentages, global numbers and "number of deaths per case".  

 

As I stated a few pages back, I knew it was incorrect because the CDC's final stats on 2009 haven't been published yet. Again, I questioned your figure of 0 VPD deaths because your link stopped at 2008.

 



 

 

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#335 of 360 Old 04-10-2011, 03:36 AM
 
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So, if you are telling them the truth, you are informing them that their kids are unlikely to encounter most vaccine preventable diseases thanks to high vaccination rates, right?  And that should vaccination rates fall below what is needed to maintain herd immunity, then their kids will be at risk after all?  And that this is no protection against tetanus since that is not a communicable disease so herd immunity is not applicable?  

 

If you really want them to do what is absolutely best for their child, then perhaps you should tell them to keep quiet about their choice not to vaccinate and encourage everyone else to vaccinate since it is everyone else's vaccines that are keeping them safe...

 

Also, not sure if you saw my post just above the two you just posted or not, since we posted at the same time. 


I mentioned tetanus earlier in this thread, here

 

 

"Of most relevance to tetanus is the fact that there are no deaths in the under 35 age bracket Source 


As I am a proponent of free choice, even for my children. I have not made decisions on their behalf if it is a decision that can be left to themselves when they are older such as circumcision, and tetanus falls under that category because even if I had no other reasons, the risk is not in their age bracket."

 

I believe the lawyers and others that state that the death numbers from vaccinations fall into the thousands.  Inquiries have shown doctors report from 1 to 10% of deaths from vaccines.  Even conservatively, that puts the deaths in the thousands.  

 

Deaths per case were plummeting long before vaccines and after all it is how fatal a disease is that makes it worthy of worry.  Plus it is mostly the immuno compromised who die or who even have complications and they don't release the stats of "immunocompromised children who died from VPD vs healthy vital unmedicated children."

 

Babies are now at risk when they rarely used to get these diseases and they are the ones, along with the elderly, who are actually at risk of death.  Mothers who were vaxed do not transfer the immunity to their babies they used to, so now we have a new problem.  The solution proposed?  Vaccinate the newborns.  duh.gif  Basically, even if we all stopped vaccinating and found ourselves back in the middle of regular disease outbreaks, I don't fear that.  Not even the smallest, measurable, tiny little bit because I believe the numbers of deaths we'd see would rival the number of deaths from the vaccines themselves.  And that is without our new found information such as vitamin A which cuts the mortality rate in half.  Medicine is starting to wake up to the fact that VPD are just as tied to general health and nutrition status as any other disease.  If they'd stop for one moment obsessing with vaccines and studied these other areas, we would (and will) find safer, more permanent, more sustainable, free and natural ways to eradicate the diseases or at least decrease severity or deaths per case stats.  Then we can put vaccines on the "lessons learned" pile of arrogant medical history right next to thalidomide, blood letting and refusal to wash hands before surgery.

 

The last part of my answer I can take from my post on another thread, here:

 

 

Like I always say, I don't give my children quinine for malaria just because thousands of kids die from malaria each year.  It would be outright disproportionate manic fear to medicate my children for diseases they are at little risk of even contracting, let alone getting complications for.  It is not relevant to my children, and I am certainly and unequivocally not putting my children at risk of adverse effects for some backwards idea that it protects your kids or keeps the overall disease stats down.  My children are my priority.  There are many ways I can and do help my community become healthy... unnecessarily medicating my children is not on that list.  

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#336 of 360 Old 04-11-2011, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

Calm-  You've met several people who were 130?  Really?  I mean, the oldest living person EVER was 122.  On the list of 10 oldest people, most are 114, max.  And you, personally, have met several over 130?  Wow.  That's all I can say.


Sorry, nice quiet thread and all but I just remembered I saw this post.

 

When I was in Japan, I visited a healer and he had some people from Okinawa staying with him.  Okinawa has a reputation of one of the places in the world that has the most centenarians living there only I didn't know that at the time.  A couple were said to be in their mid 120's... I did not check their records, I just believed what I was told.  We only hear about the ones who are the absolute oldest, not the very many who are also only a few months or even days younger than that person.  There are many old old people out there, some cultures house more of them than others, and it is those types I look at for secrets... if they have any.  A one off oldy may or may not have health and longevity wisdom to share but a whole culture of it says something.  

 

I've learned a few things about this since, and one of the things is that there are many people out there with dodgy records or who are said to be a particular age but because it can't be officially proven, don't get noted officially.  Now and again the reverse happens and they discover someone who is older than the oldest person and they are given the title as the oldest because they have tight records... records weren't as easy to come by in the 1800's, and some cultures didn't record births at all (in fact, the more simple the culture, the more chance of longevity, the less chance of records kept... paradoxically).  If they really knew who the oldest person was, this person would hold the title until they died, making the next oldest person move in line.  But with almost 7 billion people on earth, it isn't as easy to find them, and some cultures refuse western contact (very intelligent people, obviously).  To my knowledge the oldest "official" living person is 130 years old and is from a remote mountain village in the Soviet, and they've got a lot of oldies living there.  

 

Off topic, perhaps, perhaps not, but all the documentaries I've watched, all the things I've studied, there is only one common thread in all people who live long (not necessarily healthy, but live long) and that is they are all underweight in terms of the weight charts we use in the West.  I've checked dietary things (most, probably at least 80% are vegans or if they eat meat, do so at a very small rate) I've checked all kinds of things and there is only that ONE commonality.  Interesting because one of my teachers (who I met in the States, actually) told me well before I learned any of this that if I wanted to maintain my health I should maintain my low weight.  Some say that is because the less you eat to get the nutrients you need, the less stress is on your body.  Hence why raw is helpful for that... eat less, but get more nutrients.

 

Dat's it.  Dat's all I got.

 

ETA - before someone gets nit picky... yes, some people are really unhealthy and also thin.  I'm not saying being thin is a miracle cure... you can still get cancer from smoking if you're thin, etc.   But there is a definite correlation.

 


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#337 of 360 Old 04-12-2011, 12:06 PM
 
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I think you should be able to sue.  People sue others over a lot crazier claims than that!  I think any mother choosing to vaccinate knows there are dangerous chemicals in the vaccine, they just think the risk of death from the diseases the vaccines help prevent far outweighs the risk from the chemicals. 

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#338 of 360 Old 04-12-2011, 12:10 PM
 
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They found a special gene in populations that tend to live to 100 or more (the japanese, Jewish, Italians etc).   It's called FOXO gene, and the gene probably plays more of a role in the individual's long life than diet or anything else.   

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#339 of 360 Old 04-12-2011, 12:17 PM
 
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People sue others over a lot more crazier claims than that!   

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#340 of 360 Old 04-12-2011, 12:18 PM
 
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#341 of 360 Old 04-12-2011, 03:34 PM
 
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Lol, what is this?


 
 
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#342 of 360 Old 04-13-2011, 07:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Noellecc3 View Post

People sue others over a lot more crazier claims than that!   



 So, doesn't make it right.

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#343 of 360 Old 04-13-2011, 03:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Noellecc3 View Post

People sue others over a lot more crazier claims than that!   


I agree, it is crazy.  And there are crazier things.  I just don't see how it being crazy makes it ok.  I also don't see how people with a bent for vengeance are evidence that suing is a sound decision.  Hence why we (ideally) have juries with people who aren't emotionally connected to a case, because emotional reactions can cause people to act in irrational, "crazy" ways; they don't tend to make sound decisions.  Basically, "I've been messed up, so now I'm gonna mess YOU up."  This is not what I care to model to my children, as reactions like this in macro assert themselves in our children's lives in micro, and "justice" becomes confused with "vengeance" and that is how wars are started - micro ones, and macro ones.  Time to fashion a new thought pattern in our kids, and perhaps a better world, doncha reckon?

 

 

 

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They found a special gene in populations that tend to live to 100 or more (the japanese, Jewish, Italians etc).   It's called FOXO gene, and the gene probably plays more of a role in the individual's long life than diet or anything else.

 

The gene is not found in all centenarians.  Just some of the few they studied. There is also much more needed to be researched in genetics regarding longevity.  The length of telomeres in chromosomes for instance are also indicative of length of life and they are working on what causes them to be shortened more slowly.  None of these things tell us very much at this stage.  It also says nothing of those centenarians who don't have such genetic advantage - if there proves to be such advantage.  What most people want to know is how to raise their kids (and themselves) in ways that most promote health and therefore healthy longevity.  Those centenarians without an advantage have the most to teach.  


Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#344 of 360 Old 04-13-2011, 05:26 PM
 
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I don't understand the logic behind the argument, if the vaccinated are protected from disease why are they afraid of catching the diseases they are supposidly protected from from the unvaccinated? They can't have it both ways they either are protected or they are not.And if you can sue someone for knowingly spreading disease then the entire medical community would be liable.

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#345 of 360 Old 04-13-2011, 10:39 PM
 
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I don't understand the logic behind the argument, if the vaccinated are protected from disease why are they afraid of catching the diseases they are supposidly protected from from the unvaccinated? They can't have it both ways they either are protected or they are not.And if you can sue someone for knowingly spreading disease then the entire medical community would be liable.


Yes.  This.  But apparently if you say this enough (people who are vaxed shouldn't be afraid because they're supposedly protected) then it seems the response is that it isn't about an individual child.  Vaccination is about statistics... herd immunity.  It isn't that a parent is vaxing to protect her own child directly, but to add to the totality that are vaxed, and therefore the community will be protected... cycling that protection back to her own child in the herd effect.  

 

Initially, what is sold to parents is the idea that their child is directly protected, and that the vaxed are protecting the unvaxed with herd immunity... yet after they're vaccinated, the parent defends that they aren't all that protected if an outbreak occurs after all, so it is up to the unvaxed to therefore get vaxed to protect the vaxed.  

 

The logic leave me cold.

 

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#346 of 360 Old 04-14-2011, 11:55 AM
 
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It is not too far fetched to sue someone from knowingly spreading disease.  I believe people have sued for contracting HIV from someone that knew they had it. 

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#347 of 360 Old 04-14-2011, 12:48 PM
 
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It is not too far fetched to sue someone from knowingly spreading disease.  I believe people have sued for contracting HIV from someone that knew they had it. 



 I don't believe that anyone here is referring to KNOWINGLY and  PURPOSELY spreading disease. this was addressed earlier in the thread.


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#348 of 360 Old 04-14-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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my answer to this question is:

 

if vaccinated were allowed to sue unvaccinated for 'infecting them' (even though vaccinated parties also carry diseases)

 

then unvaccinated should be allowed to sue vaccinated for the shedding of their vaccines on to the unvaccinated.

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#349 of 360 Old 04-15-2011, 11:34 AM
 
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So, as a delayed vaccinating mother, I believe everyone has a right to choose whether or not their children receive vaccinations.  Like others have stated, the real issue is what should happen when people knowingly expose others to a disease that their child has contracted, vaccinated or not?

 

I'm not talking about chicken pox parties.  I frequent another parenting forum and a mother was asking what she should do (vax, antibiotics, etc.) with her two children under the age of two that had contracted pertussis and were unvaxed.  Everyone's overwhelming response was what's the point in vaxing, and what's the point in the antibiotics as they are only effective within a short timeframe which had already passed.

 

The advice she didn't take that made my blood boil was keeping her children quarantined until they were no longer contagious.  She knowingly took them to a birthday party and other public places, knowing they were contagious. 

 

I have no problem with people who don't vaccinate; I haven't done all of the vaccinations myself.  I have a problem with people that knowingly expose others to diseases without their consent.  With rising heathcare costs, I should have the right to know that you're bringing your contagious child to a birthday party and choose not to come, especially when I'm the one that has to pay the extra healthcare costs should my child contract the disease, vaccinated or not.

 

The article in OP was very silly though :)

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#350 of 360 Old 04-15-2011, 12:00 PM
 
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  I have a problem with people that knowingly expose others to diseases without their consent. 


 

You know, I do agree with this. This applies to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

 

Also, I do not approve of somebody with an illness using the illness as a weapon. (Like knowingly infecting somebody with AIDS, for revenge. Or, when the  Native Americans were purposely infected with smallpox blankets.) If a person had an illness, and tried to infect somebody on purpose......intent to cause harm where a disease is the weapon.....I can see a lawsuit over that.

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#351 of 360 Old 04-15-2011, 12:04 PM
 
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The advice she didn't take that made my blood boil was keeping her children quarantined until they were no longer contagious.  She knowingly took them to a birthday party and other public places, knowing they were contagious. 

 

 

I agree.  I'm a nonvaxer myself but I don't understand why people would do this, including those who vaccinate as well (because after all, those who are vaccinated get diseases too, so there is equal concern). I've never known anyone personally who would do this, but the thought that there are people out there that would is just scary.  In addition to exposing others to the illness, why aren't they keeping their kids home so they can get well rather than dragging them all over the place. I don't get it.

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#352 of 360 Old 04-15-2011, 02:48 PM
 
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You know, I do agree with this. This applies to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

 

Also, I do not approve of somebody with an illness using the illness as a weapon. (Like knowingly infecting somebody with AIDS, for revenge. Or, when the  Native Americans were purposely infected with smallpox blankets.) If a person had an illness, and tried to infect somebody on purpose......intent to cause harm where a disease is the weapon.....I can see a lawsuit over that.

I could see a lawsuit on those kinds of things too.  

 

The problem I have with the title of this thread is the wording... as though the vaxed can't also be sued, and the use of the word "right".  I want the right to sue, I want all my rights, but I probably would not exercise my right to sue.  

 

I also wonder if people think there is a difference between getting a disease from a vaccinated person and an unvaxed one.  Are the vaxed less liable?  I think in many people's minds, they are.  At a guess, a sense of innocence is conferred on the vaxed, and a sense of recklessness on the unvaxed.  People will knee jerk react in anger if a person gets measles from an unvaccinated person, but in a vaxed person, the liability immediately shifts to the vaccine manufacturers.  Regardless of how irresponsibly the infected vaxed person behaved.

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#353 of 360 Old 04-16-2011, 05:32 AM
 
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jaw.gif She had kids at a birthday party with pertussis?!?! OMFG. That is so irresponsible it's ridiculous.

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#354 of 360 Old 04-23-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairsailing188 View Post

 

I'm not talking about chicken pox parties.  I frequent another parenting forum and a mother was asking what she should do (vax, antibiotics, etc.) with her two children under the age of two that had contracted pertussis and were unvaxed.  Everyone's overwhelming response was what's the point in vaxing, and what's the point in the antibiotics as they are only effective within a short timeframe which had already passed.

 

The advice she didn't take that made my blood boil was keeping her children quarantined until they were no longer contagious.  She knowingly took them to a birthday party and other public places, knowing they were contagious. 


Perhaps if she'd gotten her advice from people who had accurate information to give her or did some research herself she would have been in a better place to make an informed decision. The two things I bolded contradict each other. Either her kids were still contagious and could have recieved antibiotics to reduce the length of time they were contagious to 5 days or they were not contagious and therefore antibiotics were not going to help but they were no risk to other children.



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Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

jaw.gif She had kids at a birthday party with pertussis?!?! OMFG. That is so irresponsible it's ridiculous.



Again to the bolded and my response. I agree taking kids with pertussis to a party is irresponsible but how was she sure it was pertussis? If it were culture positive (the only sure way to diagnose it although most diagnosis are made on clinical symptoms alone and then treated) I am shocked she would not have been told the benefits of antibiotic therapy since in the medical view it is the only way to go. If she did indeed have an accurate pertussis diagnosis and was in the first window of the illness when it is contagious then yes, I agree it's irresponsible.

 

However I am over the whole "pertussis will kill us all". I had SIX different doctors misdiagnose pertussis last fall. And it was because of my persistance we finally got a diagnosis. And this was several cases we are talking about in the same family. You bet your bananas I took my kids around other kids when they had pertussis because I was told it was safe to do so. Once we had a diagnosis the ones who were old enough for playdates were no long contagious and so we went along with other kids even though they sounded terrible.

 

My experience with pertussis has shown me two things very clearly... 1. It is not even close to as scary a disease as it's presented in some commercials and such because most cases are undiagnosed. 2. I never ever want to go through it again and if I could prevent it for me and my kids 100% I would in a heartbeat.

 

In response to the OP I would say that there are way too many factors to make such a thing (suing) a possible thing to entertain.

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#355 of 360 Old 06-15-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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If the vaccines work, then there isn't a risk for people who have received them, so the whole premise is completely nonsensical.  There is no point to suing a sick person for the failure of your vaccine, you should be suing the vaccine producer.

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#356 of 360 Old 06-15-2012, 02:45 PM
 
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First of all: no.

Second of all, pp, please lean how vaccines work. They are not a 100% effective shot of miracle pixie dust.
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#357 of 360 Old 06-17-2012, 06:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fairsailing188 View Post


 

The advice she didn't take that made my blood boil was keeping her children quarantined until they were no longer contagious.  She knowingly took them to a birthday party and other public places, knowing they were contagious. 

 

My head just spun off my body when I read that. What a bleep word.

 

 

Cuss.gifbanghead.gifhopmad.gifhopmad.gifhopmad.gifhopmad.gifhopmad.gif

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#358 of 360 Old 06-17-2012, 10:17 AM
 
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Mine too. FYI this is a really old thread! How did it come back?

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#359 of 360 Old 07-05-2012, 11:57 AM
 
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How is my unvaccinated child a threat to your VACCINATED one? Can't have it both ways. Vaccines either work or they don't. 

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#360 of 360 Old 07-05-2012, 12:06 PM
 
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Vaccines work, but they don't provide 100% immunity. No one ever claimed they did. There are also people who CAN'T be vaccinated who have to rely on herd immunity for protection.
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Vaccinations , Exemption , Immunity , Freedom , Vaccine The Controversial Story Of Medicines Greatest Lifesaver , Vaccinations A Thoughtful Parents Guide How To Make Safe Sensible Decisions About The Risks Benefits , Dont Vaccinate Before You Educate , The Vaccine Controversy The History Use And Safety Of Vaccinations , The Virus And The Vaccine Contaminated Vaccine Deadly Cancers And Government Neglect , The Cutter Incident How Americas First Polio Vaccine Led To The Growing Vaccine Crisis

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