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#121 of 360 Old 03-08-2011, 07:13 PM
 
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I've NEVER said anyone needed to be SELFLESS.  What I'm saying is that if you KNOW that your child was exposed to a VPD - stay away from others so that you don't pass it along to someone who may be immune compromised.  Is that really such an awful thing to expect?  I would do the same with my VAXED child - I think its a pretty reasonable thing to expect of someone who doesn't vax - yes?

 

I'm really not sure what you mean about "when it comes to their own child, heaven forbid if you look at them sideways"?  Can you elaborate on that?
 

 


 

I wasn't referring to you, and thought I made that pretty clear in my post.  I see it all over the internet.  I understand what you are saying, and have never said that I advocate exposing others to any illness, vaccine-preventable or not.

 

Frankly I see the contradictions between the vaccine debate and the formula debate to be quite telling.  Pro-vaxers think that non-vaxers are being selfish and need to think of the greater good.  That it shouldn't be a personal choice.  But say that breast is best and all of a sudden you're a "nazi" and formula feeders (by choice) argue that it's a personal decision and no one else should have a say.  In other words, I should expose my children to neurotoxins to protect their child despite their unwillingness to make the effort to give their child the most basic and fundamental of immune protection.


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#122 of 360 Old 03-08-2011, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post

 

Frankly I see the contradictions between the vaccine debate and the formula debate to be quite telling.  Pro-vaxers think that non-vaxers are being selfish and need to think of the greater good.  That it shouldn't be a personal choice.  But say that breast is best and all of a sudden you're a "nazi" and formula feeders (by choice) argue that it's a personal decision and no one else should have a say.  In other words, I should expose my children to neurotoxins to protect their child despite their unwillingness to make the effort to give their child the most basic and fundamental of immune protection.


I think thats about where the formula and vax debate similarities end. 

 

I actually think both are personal choices - and as long as people take responsibility for their choices, thats fine.  With formula, if your baby is allergic to the regular stuff, you have to pay an arm and a leg for the special stuff (but with BF'ing sometimes people have to go on crazy elimination diets, and all that).  With vaxing, your kid could get a VPD (so could vaxed kids, I know).

 

The double standard is a bit nauseating, but there are so many double standards in life its disgusting.

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#123 of 360 Old 03-08-2011, 08:15 PM
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Where is the compassion for the parents of the thousands of children who immediately regressed and became autistic right after getting their MMR vaccine?  



I don't even know where to start...

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#124 of 360 Old 03-08-2011, 08:19 PM
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Frankly I see the contradictions between the vaccine debate and the formula debate to be quite telling.  Pro-vaxers think that non-vaxers are being selfish and need to think of the greater good.  That it shouldn't be a personal choice.  But say that breast is best and all of a sudden you're a "nazi" and formula feeders (by choice) argue that it's a personal decision and no one else should have a say.  In other words, I should expose my children to neurotoxins to protect their child despite their unwillingness to make the effort to give their child the most basic and fundamental of immune protection.

The difference the issue of what you feed or do not feed your child only effects your own child. 

 

The decision to not vax has an effect on the entire community and puts other children and people at risk.  It's a BIG difference.
 

 

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#125 of 360 Old 03-08-2011, 08:44 PM
 
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The difference the issue of what you feed or do not feed your child only effects your own child. 

 

The decision to not vax has an effect on the entire community and puts other children and people at risk.  It's a BIG difference.
 

 



No, it doesn't.  Formula fed babies are more likely to get ill than breastfed ones, meaning they are also more likely be infectious.

 

Mothers who don't breastfeed are more likely to develop breast cancer than those who do.  You think that doesn't effect communities?  My mother just had a double mastectomy 5 days ago.  She only breastfed for a handful of months.  You think that doesn't affect her family and community?  You are very naive if you think that what you feed your child is risk-free, which is why you don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying.

 

The decision TO vax also has an effect on the individual child and can put that child at risk.  Or perhaps you are not aware of the VAERS database with tens of thousands of severe vaccine reactions, including deaths as a result of vaccinations?  Not wanting the illnesses vaccines are designed to protect isn't enough to make the vaccines safe.


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#126 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 02:18 AM
 
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Smoking.  Passive smoking....how does that compare (legally)?  I'm in the UK, here you cannot smoke in enclosed (more than 50%, so bus shelters are ok, anything more enclosed isn't) public space.  Because to do so impacts on the health of others.  You can be arrested or fined for allowing a person to smoke in a public space you are responsible for (like the cafe or bar you own).  In that comparison one could say that the fact of "being ill" is separate from right to spread that illness.

 

To me the issue here is not one of vaccination but one of known illness/infection risk - there is no vaccine for HIV but you can go to prison for knowingly spreading it to unsuspecting partners.  If you knowingly risk the health of others by getting on a plane when you know you're ill, then shouldn't there be repercussions?  I agree (as someone said upthread) it's much harder with an airborne illness, since a sexual partner is clearly someone you have some mutual responsibility of care for.

 

Bokonon your argument about FF goes both ways - if formula fed babies are more likely to be infectious and that should be prevented (by BF) why does the same not go for vaccination?  Why is "natural" immunity (mine is not, i was vaccinated and i'm sure that effects my milk) ok but vaccine not (that's rhetorical, i am well aware of the many reasons people decide not to vaccinate).  My point is that if you don't want others to dictate vaxing then you cannot dictate BFing, right?

 

I am always interested to read what i, a vaxer, must feel and think about this sort of issue.  It amazes me that we can all misunderstand one another so much!

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Or perhaps you are not aware of the VAERS database with tens of thousands of severe vaccine reactions, including deaths as a result of vaccinations?

 

I would not base any of my decisions on info from the VAERS website. Anyone can put in data without having to actually prove anything other then something happened at or around the same time a vaccine was given. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

Important medical decisions for my family aren't going to be based on a database that has no control over the information it contains, and no means of verifying the accuracy of said info.

 

From VAERS own waiver:

 

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VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine. 
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#128 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 07:40 AM
 
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I would not base any of my decisions on info from the VAERS website. Anyone can put in data without having to actually prove anything other then something happened at or around the same time a vaccine was given. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

Important medical decisions for my family aren't going to be based on a database that has no control over the information it contains, and no means of verifying the accuracy of said info.

 

From VAERS own waiver:

 



If correlation does not equal causation, then you can't say that diseases declined as a result of vaccinations or even that one person's VPD was caused by another person who had said VPD.

 

I'm well aware of VAERS' own waiver.  And I have not based any of my decisions from that database.  But it is the only tool available for such information, and it's certainly not worthless.

 

I just love how pro-vaxers argue that you just can't trust any information about vaccines unless it comes from the CDC or government, and then turn around and bash VAERS.  Come on.


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#129 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 07:46 AM
 
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To report a reaction anyway don't you have to have the number on the vaccine and all this info? Do you really think a bunch of parents are getting all the info they need to submit and going out of their way to do the report for no reason? What they have an agenda to make people think vax is evil for no reason? Come on...


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#130 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 07:58 AM
 
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BUT i do think that "the right to sue" is excessive.  I mean, if you don't KNOW you're sick, how are you supposed to avoid spreading it.  And what if vaccinations were given but didn't take?  You're infectious, despite vaccines, are you still liable if someone else gets ill?

The example used in the original story probably wasn't a good one.

 

The 2008 measles outbreak in San Diego would have been a much better one. An unvaccinated child gets infected with measles while traveling in Switzerland, comes back and infects 11 other children, including one child in at the same pediatrician's office who was too young to get his MMR yet.

 

That infant's illness led to the story 106 Degrees: A True Story and the outbreak ended up costing about $170,000.

 

The parents of the first case knew he was sick, which is why he went to his pediatrician. They likely didn't know it was measles, but maybe they should have since they made the decision to not vax and should have known he would be more susceptible to infections like measles.

 

The reasons we likely don't see any lawsuits is you likely have to prove that a person knowingly spread the illness. And the vaccine exemptions in many states probably provide some cover.

 


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#131 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 08:13 AM
 
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If correlation does not equal causation, then you can't say that diseases declined as a result of vaccinations or even that one person's VPD was caused by another person who had said VPD.

 

I'm well aware of VAERS' own waiver.  And I have not based any of my decisions from that database.  But it is the only tool available for such information, and it's certainly not worthless.

 

I just love how pro-vaxers argue that you just can't trust any information about vaccines unless it comes from the CDC or government, and then turn around and bash VAERS.  Come on.


While vaers may be a government website the information contained is no more reliable than a post here at MDC since it is self entered and not monitored or verified in any way.
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#132 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 09:41 AM
 
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If correlation does not equal causation, then you can't say that diseases declined as a result of vaccinations or even that one person's VPD was caused by another person who had said VPD.

 

I'm well aware of VAERS' own waiver.  And I have not based any of my decisions from that database.  But it is the only tool available for such information, and it's certainly not worthless.

 

I just love how pro-vaxers argue that you just can't trust any information about vaccines unless it comes from the CDC or government, and then turn around and bash VAERS.  Come on.




While vaers may be a government website the information contained is no more reliable than a post here at MDC since it is self entered and not monitored or verified in any way.


 

And how is that different from the CDC?  Who monitors them?


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#133 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 09:47 AM
 
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The example used in the original story probably wasn't a good one.

 

The 2008 measles outbreak in San Diego would have been a much better one. An unvaccinated child gets infected with measles while traveling in Switzerland, comes back and infects 11 other children, including one child in at the same pediatrician's office who was too young to get his MMR yet.

 

That infant's illness led to the story 106 Degrees: A True Story and the outbreak ended up costing about $170,000.

 

The parents of the first case knew he was sick, which is why he went to his pediatrician. They likely didn't know it was measles, but maybe they should have since they made the decision to not vax and should have known he would be more susceptible to infections like measles.

 

The reasons we likely don't see any lawsuits is you likely have to prove that a person knowingly spread the illness. And the vaccine exemptions in many states probably provide some cover.

 


 

I live in San Diego, have young children, including a child who was in preschool in 2008, and wasn't even aware of a measles outbreak.  12 children in a city of over 2 million?  That's not exactly staggering, regardless of how much the "outbreak" cost.

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2011/01/03/review-the-average-cost-of-measles-cases-and-adverse-events-following-vaccination-in-industrialised-countries/

 

When doctors don't even know what VPDs look like, you surely can't expect parents to internet diagnose their own child.  "More" susceptible to measles?  I don't consider my daughter who hasn't had the MMR to be any more susceptible to measles than my son who has had 2 doses of MMR.  Because knowing that vaccines are not 100% effective and not knowing if my child was one of the ones it failed for, I don't assume anything.


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#134 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 10:04 AM
 
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To report a reaction anyway don't you have to have the number on the vaccine and all this info? Do you really think a bunch of parents are getting all the info they need to submit and going out of their way to do the report for no reason? What they have an agenda to make people think vax is evil for no reason? Come on...

No, you don't need any of that information. Anyone can report anything. For example, if you think your neighbor's child had a vaccine reaction, you can file a report, even without your neighbor's approval. Epidemiologists follow up on the reports to obtain additional information.
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#135 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 10:29 AM
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I don't consider my daughter who hasn't had the MMR to be any more susceptible to measles than my son who has had 2 doses of MMR.  

 

Then you really don't understand how vaccines work.

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Then you really don't understand how vaccines work.



Yes, I do, as I explained.  If you really think that your child is 100% protected because s/he had a vaccine, then YOU don't understand how they work.  I could hope that my son is more protected after having the shots, but without a titer to be sure, I can't assume that he is or is not one of percentage of vaccine failures.


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It is the parent's legal right not to vax their kids, so suing them would infringe on their rights.


Not necessarily. Not all states allow philosophic exemptions to vaccination.

 

And many experts think that there is no constitutional right to either religious or philosophic exemptions to vaccination. Before the first state law that allowed religious exemptions, the Supreme Court ruled against religious exemptions to vaccination - Jacobson v. Massachusetts. And as recently as 1987, the Supreme Court ruled against someone seeking a philosophical exemption - Maricopa County Health Department v. Har*mon.

 

Vaccination Mandates: The Public Health Imperative and Individual Rights


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Not necessarily. Not all states allow philosophic exemptions to vaccination.

 

And many experts think that there is no constitutional right to either religious or philosophic exemptions to vaccination. Before the first state law that allowed religious exemptions, the Supreme Court ruled against religious exemptions to vaccination - Jacobson v. Massachusetts. And as recently as 1987, the Supreme Court ruled against someone seeking a philosophical exemption - Maricopa County Health Department v. Har*mon.

 

Vaccination Mandates: The Public Health Imperative and Individual Rights



Not all states allow philosophical exemptions to vaccination - for PUBLIC SCHOOL entry.  That doesn't make it illegal for a parent not to have their child injected with questionable ingredients.  

 

Or would you suggest we round up all the Amish and lock them up?


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The example used in the original story probably wasn't a good one.

 

The 2008 measles outbreak in San Diego would have been a much better one. An unvaccinated child gets infected with measles while traveling in Switzerland, comes back and infects 11 other children, including one child in at the same pediatrician's office who was too young to get his MMR yet.

 

That infant's illness led to the story 106 Degrees: A True Story and the outbreak ended up costing about $170,000.

 

The parents of the first case knew he was sick, which is why he went to his pediatrician. They likely didn't know it was measles, but maybe they should have since they made the decision to not vax and should have known he would be more susceptible to infections like measles.

 

The reasons we likely don't see any lawsuits is you likely have to prove that a person knowingly spread the illness. And the vaccine exemptions in many states probably provide some cover.

 


How does a vaccine exemption provide cover for knowingly spreading disease?

 

How should the parents have known it was measles? Many doctors can't even properly diagnose it. Not to mention, most illnesses are pretty easily spread. If a child is in the ped's office for illness, shouldn't the ped office take some responsibility to isolate the sick person, regardless of whether or not the illness is vaccinatable? If the office told the parents to bring the child in, they should also be responsible for the well-being of the other patients.

 

 

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#140 of 360 Old 03-09-2011, 01:03 PM
 
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I literally have a thread going on about this exact situation.

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1300836/say-your-kid-got-the-measles#post_16311623


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The parents of the first case knew he was sick, which is why he went to his pediatrician. They likely didn't know it was measles, but maybe they should have since they made the decision to not vax and should have known he would be more susceptible to infections like measles.

 

The reasons we likely don't see any lawsuits is you likely have to prove that a person knowingly spread the illness. And the vaccine exemptions in many states probably provide some cover.

 


I'm not certain how a parent would be expected to diagnose measles as the cause of illness as opposed to any other viral exanthem. I wonder if there might be liability on the part of the pediatrician for having the child come into the office/waiting area with other children. If the child had not been diagnosed with measles then it's not likely the parent could have knowingly spread it.
 

 

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Well we don't vax but I have a huge list of all the symptoms and signs of every VPD they vax for, so if DD does get sick I can say "hmmm well her eyes were red, and she has white spots in her mouth, a fever, and a cough, she may have measles so we should take precautions as if she does have them." 

 

Considering "most Dr's don't even know how to diagnose VPD's anymore" which is ridiculous IMO if I bring it up at least they would have to look into it. If I call and say "I suspect it's x b/c she has x,y,z" then I would suspect the Dr would want to take precautions and if he said it wasn't necessary I would insist.

 


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#143 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I found this today and thought of this thread: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2553651/

 

 

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Tort law, though perhaps not as effective a remedy as outright state government intervention, has the potential to be the best method of preventing religious and philosophical exemption abuse and compensating victims of vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks that has a realistic chance of being implemented.

 

 

It's interesting that they blame exemption laws on "social conservatives."  Last I checked, non-vaxing and D/S-vaxing MDC members are all over the map with their politics and religion...

 

If it's your right and you exercise it, exactly how are you "abusing" a religious or philosophical exemption?


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#144 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 01:24 PM
 
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I loved the "most parents are too lazy to vaccinate" line for people who exempt their children from the vax for school. Seems to me the easier thing would be to just get the vax done on schedule at the well visits...


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#145 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 03:40 PM
 
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I loved the "most parents are too lazy to vaccinate" line for people who exempt their children from the vax for school. Seems to me the easier thing would be to just get the vax done on schedule at the well visits...



Not everyone in this country has access to medical care, so its not so "Easy" to get vaxed if you don't have a ped, or don't have the resources to do well visits.

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#146 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 04:44 PM
 
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Slippery Slope.  And discriminatory beyond comprehension.  The fact will always remain, that there is no possible way to know who will and will not resist disease regardless of whether a vaccine is available, and regardless of whether they have been vaccinated or not.  When you hear things like, "and it could have all been prevented by the vaccine" like we all hear ad nauseum - that is a false dichotomy, and a logical fallacy that has no basis in fact, only opinion.  

 

If we are going to open the door for lawsuits over spreading disease, then it will open for ALL diseases and infectious states, many of which vaccines are not available.  How many Retroviruses out there?  Adenoviruses?  Enteroviruses?  There have been many position papers written on the potential for tort action with respect to vaccine refusal... and they are all based on the premise that had the infectious person vaccinated, then the victim wouldn't have gotten sick by coming into contact with them.  Prove it - not with antibodies either since memory cells cannot generally be measured except during challenge and antibodies are but a fraction of total host immune response.  Direct infection studies in animals measure only symptoms [with some exceptions] and do not account for subclinical states among the vaccinated.  No confounders there.

 

I wish the infectee the best of luck in that pursuit, because it will fall flat on its face.
 

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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

I found this today and thought of this thread: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2553651/

 

 

 

 

It's interesting that they blame exemption laws on "social conservatives."  Last I checked, non-vaxing and D/S-vaxing MDC members are all over the map with their politics and religion...

 

If it's your right and you exercise it, exactly how are you "abusing" a religious or philosophical exemption?



 

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#147 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 05:14 PM
 
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Not everyone in this country has access to medical care, so its not so "Easy" to get vaxed if you don't have a ped, or don't have the resources to do well visits.


Well if you have no access to medical care it still wouldn't be b/c you were lazy. From what I understand, at least where I live, if you don't bring your baby to well visits it is medical neglect and you can have your children taken away...

 

I don't really understand why you challenged what I said. All I was saying was that a reason for not vaxing being that the parents are lazy is bogus.

 


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#148 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 06:57 PM
 
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 From what I understand, at least where I live, if you don't bring your baby to well visits it is medical neglect and you can have your children taken away...

 



This is scary. 

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#149 of 360 Old 03-18-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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Well if you have no access to medical care it still wouldn't be b/c you were lazy. From what I understand, at least where I live, if you don't bring your baby to well visits it is medical neglect and you can have your children taken away...

 

I don't really understand why you challenged what I said. All I was saying was that a reason for not vaxing being that the parents are lazy is bogus.

 



B/c you said that the "easy" thing to do would just be to get the vaxes at the well baby visits.  That might be true, but its not easy to have well baby visits if you have to pay out of pocket, and if you don't have insurance you probably can't afford to pay for well baby visits.

 

And I find it really hard to believe that not going to well child visits would be medical neglect.  I'm pretty sure medical neglect is when people do things like ignore GLARING signs of MAJOR problems and refuse to seek medical treatment for their children.  If a child is perfectly healthy there isn't any medical neglect going on.

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What I was trying to say was that if a parent were "just being lazy" according to that website, then why would they go through all the trouble to get exempt form vaccinating since it is a PIA, or in other words it would be easier to just vax than to not.

 

I don't think it is medical neglect not to go to well visits, but from what I understand it is considered medical neglect. IDK that's what I was told.

 

Just forget it...


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