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#301 of 345 Old 12-04-2012, 12:03 PM
 
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Nope. I bet they love bottled water, too. winky.gif
  I'm sure that, typically, the majority of them believe that the vaccinations aren't bad for their children, the same way that they believe that they're not exploiting anyone to make and distribute their product. The same way that they believe that their larger-than-life lifestyles aren't toxic for the environment that their children will inherit. Because it depends on who you ask. If you put a bunch of rich, white, privileged males in a room and ask them to make decisions on behalf of everyone in the nation, who do you think will be most adequately represented?  We all stand behind some less-than-honorable things that we do, because we believe that we gain from it and money is about self-interest. I struggle with eating cheese. I know people who believe that cheese consumption and farming is an awful, unthinkable thing to do, and I know some people who live by the 80's government food pyramid. Some people promote vaccines, disregarding the fact that who they most benefit are the elite. Fine, but I won't inject my child, thank you very much. I'd much prefer to get whooping cough. Where the garlic at?



 



I don't have billions of dollars behind me so that I can conduct studies which bend in directions that will make me feel better about my choices to exploit others, but some groups do. I'm not naive enough to think that anyone's infallible just because they have prestige or have been published to rave review, or that there are enough checks-and-balances to render money obsolete. To me, the CDC might as well be the pope. I'll take his answers into account, but I probably won't bet my life on them because damn, that guy walks around in some fancy clothes. Money will become obsolete in huge universally-pertinant decisions when money no longer exists. I'm not holding my breath that the CDC will account for the truth before they'll account for the needs of their lobbyists. I'm not going to hold my breath that as individuals, they've all researched the vaccines and applied their personal research to their children's health. These things tend to work by the trickle-down effect, and they're smothered in sugary-sweet language that makes it easier for the next person in line to accept and promote the idea. I know that lots of questionable things are promoted because of who they profit, regardless of the integrity of each individual involved. I know, because this is not the only realm in which it is happening. I think Monsanto. I think Arizona immigration laws. I think Nestle. I think circumcision. I think USDA "organic" (can you say farmer exploitation? pesticides??). I think hospital birth trauma and birth rape. I think of ritilin-pushing and over-diagnoses of "behavior problems" in schools. I think of anti-homebirth legislation. In fact, I think of legislation that is currently trying to change the definition of rape so that they can disregard the coming-out of some rape victims. Disgusting. Unhealthy. Reality.



 



If you must call me names, then yes, I'm a "conspiracy theorist". Are home-birthers conspiracy theorists, too? I mean, I believe that there are people who are willing to do a lot for money. Maybe it helps that I'm an emotionally/socially intellectual person too, but I doubt many would take that into consideration when they're trying to promote the medical genius / ethical infallibility of drug companies and the government that they pay to ruthlessly promote their product. 

 



There have been a number of so-called "civil rights movements" that have overturned negative promotions by the government. Once, you would have had to disagree with the law to believe that schools should be racially integrated. It turns out, many people with positions of power have bias, too! Whoduthunkit?



 



Again, pass the garlic.



 





What's wrong with bottled water and USDA organic foods? Just wondering...I know it's off-topic but maybe you could pm me a few resources to get me started. Thank you. smile.gif

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#302 of 345 Old 12-10-2012, 12:48 AM
 
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i dont vaccinate any of my kids

 

herbal remidies and alternative medicines all cure disease (accapuncture, herbs, urine therapy, yoga)

 

dont need vaccinations

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#303 of 345 Old 01-04-2013, 06:17 PM
 
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I'm struggling with the vaccination decision as well. My baby is due in January and I know for sure that we are going to delay vaccination for at least a year. And at that time we are going to select which vaccines are really worth the risks. I would love to be anti vaccine, but it's just not realistic to me. I also can't imagine injecting a vaccine into my child for a disease he is so unlikely to come into contact with, or for a disease that really doesn't seem as scary as the vaccine itself. This is such a personal decision. My neighbor has 5 children, all of them had reactions to vaccinations. Why she continued to vaccinate them, I don't know, but she has 5 children who all responded the same way and her struggle is what made me do the research in the first place. I know that most children respond just fine to the immunizations, but the chance isn't worth the risk to me. We will vaccinate on a delayed schedule and only introduce one vaccine at a time to our little boy. 


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#304 of 345 Old 01-04-2013, 07:07 PM
 
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The good news is, despite all the time we spend bickering around here about it, in the current climate in the US the overwhelming odds are your child is going to be ok either way. Sometimes we need to just make the best decision we can and let ourselves off the hook.
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#305 of 345 Old 01-05-2013, 11:10 AM
 
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The good news is, despite all the time we spend bickering around here about it, in the current climate in the US the overwhelming odds are your child is going to be ok either way. Sometimes we need to just make the best decision we can and let ourselves off the hook.

Dammit, Rrrrrachel, that's much too sensible and level-headed for this forum. Knock it off before I rat you out to the mods. winky.gif
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#306 of 345 Old 01-06-2013, 04:14 AM
 
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I'm struggling with the vaccination decision as well. My baby is due in January and I know for sure that we are going to delay vaccination for at least a year. And at that time we are going to select which vaccines are really worth the risks. I would love to be anti vaccine, but it's just not realistic to me. I also can't imagine injecting a vaccine into my child for a disease he is so unlikely to come into contact with, or for a disease that really doesn't seem as scary as the vaccine itself. This is such a personal decision. My neighbor has 5 children, all of them had reactions to vaccinations. Why she continued to vaccinate them, I don't know, but she has 5 children who all responded the same way and her struggle is what made me do the research in the first place. I know that most children respond just fine to the immunizations, but the chance isn't worth the risk to me. We will vaccinate on a delayed schedule and only introduce one vaccine at a time to our little boy. 

Actually, we really don't know that.....not by a longshot.  With all the illness and debilitating issues in today's kids, i'm willing to bet, most kids did not respond  'just fine' to their vaccinations.  

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#307 of 345 Old 01-06-2013, 07:14 PM
 
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And I don't know a single person who has had a serious reaction to a vaccine-let alone died.


I know someone. She got the swine flu vaccine, developed guillain barre, and was dead two weeks later.
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#308 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 05:14 AM
 
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I know someone. She got the swine flu vaccine, developed guillain barre, and was dead two weeks later.

 

Wow she was really unlucky. I'm really sad for your loss.

 

 Says here that for every 500,000 people vaccinated against swine flu, 1 additional case of Guillain Barre will be diagnosed, and that only 1 in 20 people who develop the disease die from it (so 1 person for every 10 million vaccinated), with most making a full recovery (after 6-12 months - which sounds bad enough I agree!)

 

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2012/07July/Pages/Swine-flu-deadly-condition-claim.aspx

 

 In total 392 people died with a laboratory confirmed case of swine flu in the UK during April-July 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_in_the_United_Kingdom#Cases_by_region) - UK population is around 60 million so that's 1/153,000 people during that period. If the whole population had been vaccinated that would have been 120 extra cases of GB, 6 of whom statistically speaking would have died.

 

In the UK pregnant women were 4 times more likely to be admitted to hospital if they got swine flu and sadly 12 women died (with their babies) between April 2009 and Jan 2010 (http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/CMACE%20swine%20flu%20and%20pregnancy%20report%202010_10_21_H1N1_final.pdf).

 

I for one am glad I decided to be vaccinated against this disease while pregnant with my son. We experienced no serious reaction (although I did have a sore arm for a couple of days). 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#309 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 04:32 PM
 
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#310 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 04:57 PM
 
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I got both my boys their vaccinations starting with the hep B shot in the hospital after they were born and then shots on the schedule my doctor told me they were supposed to get them. 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 9 months 12 months and 15 months thats as far as ive got so far my boys are 15 months and 3 months. I plan on sticking to the schedule from their doctor and so far we've had no problems or anything from the vaccinations...(knock on wood)
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#311 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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I got both my boys their vaccinations starting with the hep B shot in the hospital after they were born and then shots on the schedule my doctor told me they were supposed to get them. 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 9 months 12 months and 15 months thats as far as ive got so far my boys are 15 months and 3 months. I plan on sticking to the schedule the doctor gave me and so far we've had no problems or anything from the vaccinations...
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#312 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 05:08 PM
 
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Oh to answer the other question I never even considered not vaccinating my boys... Everybody I know vaccinates their kids so I never thought about not doing it... To be honest I didnt realize so many people dont do it... Theres nothing wrong with that, all parents are different and do things differently, I just didnt realize how strongly some people feel against vaccinations until I joined this site.
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#313 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 07:31 PM
 
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Welcome aboard, Lovemy2boys25!

 

I think the reason many people feel strongly about not vaccinating is that they either have a child who has had a severe reaction to a vaccine, or else know somebody else who did.  I'm glad your children have been safe, and hope they continue to be.

 

It's possible that you know more people than you think who don't vaccinate. Most of the people I work with, and most of my children's friends parents have no idea that we no longer vaccinate, because it's not something that ever comes up.  In the case of work, I make a point not to advertise the fact, because our workplace insurance offers a pretty big group policy discount for 100% flu shot compliance rates, and the pressure here to comply is pretty intense.  

 

2 years ago, I did talk with a couple of coworkers about that; I have a medical exemption myself, because of my own severe reaction in the past. But medical exemptions screw up the "100% compliance."  I couldn't believe how unsympathetic my coworkers are.  They wanted me vaccinated so that they could get their discount. Period. They couldn't have cared less if I had another reaction. One of them even said, "but if you have a reaction, your medical care would be covered, so what's the big deal?"

 

I'm really glad those coworkers left soon after that.  But their attitude seems pretty pervasive around here.

 

Schools, too, can be very difficult to work with, even when your child has a doctor-signed medical exemption.  And many pediatricians refuse to treat children who are not fully caught up on the recommended vaccine schedule--regardless of family history of vaccine reaction.

 

The pressure to comply with the vaccination schedule can be very intense and frightening.  Those of us who don't believe in such compliance certainly don't take our decision lightly!

 

And for those of us whose children had bad reactions to vaccines--we started out not even considering not vaccinating, too.  Because everyone we knew vaccinated. And the doctor told us it was perfectly safe.  And nobody warned us that our kids could have life-threatening reactions; we were told that such reactions were vanishingly rare, and only happened in third-world countries where children didn't have proper sanitation/nutrition.  And when our kids did have reactions, the medical personnel had no idea what to do, because they'd been taught that "vaccines don't do that."

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#314 of 345 Old 01-07-2013, 07:35 PM
 
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I haven't ever hear anyone claim serious reactions only happen in third world countries. I don't have any idea what things like sanitation and nutrition would even have to do with it. I have often claimed that they are vanishingly rare because, well, all the evidence shows they are.
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#315 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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 I have often claimed that they are vanishingly rare because, well, all the evidence shows they are.

Except for the evidence posted here many times, that you've apparently chosen to ignore.  Like the fact that only a fraction of severe vaccine reactions are recognized as such, let alone reported.  Like the fact that, in spite of this, over 2500 cases of vaccine-induced serious injuries and death have been admitted and compensated by the US government (with taxpayer money)--and that's only through 2010.  http://vactruth.com/2011/02/25/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program-and-vaccine-damage-awards/

 

Here is a partial list of cases compensated in 2012: http://drtenpenny.com/vaccine-court-judgements-for-flu-shot-injuries/

 

More recent studies have shown serious long-term autimmune problems caused by aluminum adjuvants, and both recent and not-so recent studies link vaccines with developmental regression, neurological disorders, bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, food intolerances, etc.

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#316 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 09:16 AM
 
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I was never told about any risks or side effects that could be caused by vaccinations from my doctor or anybody really... Its scary to hear how vaccinations affect some children and adults too!!
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#317 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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I was never told about any risks or side effects that could be caused by vaccinations from my doctor or anybody really... Its scary to hear how vaccinations affect some children and adults too!!

Just curious, did you ask?
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#318 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Except for the evidence posted here many times, that you've apparently chosen to ignore.  Like the fact that only a fraction of severe vaccine reactions are recognized as such, let alone reported.  Like the fact that, in spite of this, over 2500 cases of vaccine-induced serious injuries and death have been admitted and compensated by the US government (with taxpayer money)--and that's only through 2010.  http://vactruth.com/2011/02/25/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program-and-vaccine-damage-awards/

Here is a partial list of cases compensated in 2012: http://drtenpenny.com/vaccine-court-judgements-for-flu-shot-injuries/

More recent studies have shown serious long-term autimmune problems caused by aluminum adjuvants, and both recent and not-so recent studies link vaccines with developmental regression, neurological disorders, bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, food intolerances, etc.

I guess you mean the speculation, cause I haven't seen much evidence. I don't ignore it, but I don't find it compelling, either.
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#319 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 03:45 PM
 
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The vaccine court does not actually require proof that injuries were caused by vaccines.


Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#320 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 04:03 PM
 
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Good point. If its on the list of recognized serious adverse events for a particular vaccine all you have to show is that it occurred in a reasonable timeframe after the vaccine. If its not on the list, you have to show that it's "50% plus a hair" likely it was caused, or just barely more likely than not, which is far short of a scientific standard.
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Good point. If its on the list of recognized serious adverse events for a particular vaccine all you have to show is that it occurred in a reasonable timeframe after the vaccine. If its not on the list, you have to show that it's "50% plus a hair" likely it was caused, or just barely more likely than not, which is far short of a scientific standard.

According to the people who have actually won their cases in vaccine court, this is not true.  They all say that the experience was extremely adversarial, and that they had to have an absolutely airtight case.  Even the lawyers agree that the Special Masters go overboard looking for ANY possible cause other than vaccines as an excuse to turn down the plaintiff.


Here is an interview with one of those lawyers: http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/exposing-fdas-vaccine-injury-cover-up.html

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#322 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 05:38 PM
 
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no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...
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#323 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 05:49 PM
 
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no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...

Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?
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#324 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 06:57 PM
 
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Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?

 

Only so far as the risks and benefits are available. I was on Vioxx back in 2002. Good ol' Merck wasn't exactly open book with a lot of its data about side effects. 2whistle.gif Doctors cannot share info with you about risks if the manufacturer won't provide it. 

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#325 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 07:02 PM
 
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And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.
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#326 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 07:29 PM
 
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And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

 

Too bad that type of regulation doesn't extend to prescription meds. But then, as mentioned, if the manufacturer is not forthcoming with data on side effects, then anything the doctor provides in that particular instance is incomplete anyway.

 

I don't think the same regulations vis-a-vis information sheets applies to all countries. It's up to the parents (who are medical consumers) to obtain the information themselves and not rely solely on their HCP for the data they're looking for. Since I'm not in the US, I can't comment on the parental information sheets, but if they're similar to what the health units hand out here, they're more general info and a little light on hard data.


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#327 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 07:46 PM
 
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These are the sheets used here.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/

I agree it's incumbent on patients nd their caregivers to educate themselves and be educated consumers. That doesn't excuse the responsibility of the hcp, though.

Fortunately we don't have to rely solely on manufacturers for data on vaccine safety and efficacy.
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#328 of 345 Old 01-08-2013, 10:34 PM
 
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And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

Too bad all docs are not law abiding.
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#329 of 345 Old 01-09-2013, 04:35 AM
 
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Too bad all docs are not law abiding.

I'm in the US and my ped only gave the VIS packet at our first well visit.

I wonder how many peds actually give the sheets each time shots are given
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#330 of 345 Old 01-09-2013, 06:48 AM
 
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I can only speak to hat the law says. I imagine more would give them out if their patients asked for them. I'm not trying to excuse doctors responsibility to inform and educate. I've fired doctors for doing a poor job of that. Patients have a responsibility, too, though. When I hear people talkin about how they had NO IDEA vaccines could cause harmful side effects I have to wonder why they let their child have a medical procedure, apparently without doing even a minimal amount of research or inquiry, since that information is widely available even on the most mainstream websites.
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